What's with all the animal abuse?

jlew24asu

dunkman wrote:

i dont think its fair to test new make-up on little monkeys....

call me cruel but I fully support this.

dunkman

jlew24asu wrote:

maybe we should start training cows to use guns to make it a fair fight.

cows with guns... thats udder nonsense... would they have moooo-chine guns? cud missiles?

what about guns that shoot ice... it'd be awful to die by fresian.

i could milk these puns further... but that'd be a mis-steak

:oops: :oops:

dunkman

jlew24asu wrote:

dunkman wrote:

i dont think its fair to test new make-up on little monkeys....

call me cruel but I fully support this.

i didnt have you down as a lipstick using sorta guy

decides2dream

dunkman wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

because asking me to discuss aliens invading the earth and eating us is fucking asinine.

why?
the 'point' is....you say we are 'superior, top of the food chain, highest intelligence, we win'...and all he is asking is what IF that weren't true, would you then be a-ok with it? the example may be far-fetched, but the ideas behind it are not. being the smartest isn't always the end-all, be-all, nor should one mistake if for the right to be cruel and domineering over all life.

because its supposition... also he wasnt suggesting we should be cruel... he said we were top of the food chain. which we are... unless we fall into a shark infested ocean wearing a suit covered in blood.. in which case we are not...

anyway, we have incisors, we are designed to eat meat... our digestive juices are designed to break down meat... we need certain minerals/irons/vitamins/etc from meats.

i dont think its fair to test new make-up on little monkeys... but if we could find a cure for cancer and if it meant testing it on slugs then i couldnt care.

i understand what it's about...but it's still a 'fair' question, an idea to ponder as to what you think is right.


btw - in case you are under the false impression that i am a vegetarian, tho i was once, i am not now. i am not some militant animal rights activist, i merely thought it was a fair question. and we may be top of the food chain, but the idea that we are just so 'superior' is our own idea, doesn't actually make it so. i also didn't suggest that he thought it gave us permission to be cruel...i merely was expressing that i don't believe it should give us license to in any case.

and i do agree, we are designed to eat meat and plants....thus why we are classified as omnivores.

i also agree....it is absolutely unnecessary and cruel to test make-up on animals.

jlew24asu

dunkman wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

maybe we should start training cows to use guns to make it a fair fight.

cows with guns... thats udder nonsense... would they have moooo-chine guns? cud missiles?

what about guns that shoot ice... it'd be awful to die by fresian.

i could milk these puns further... but that'd be a mis-steak

:oops: :oops:

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

hi, we are talking about ANIMALS. animals are not humans. they are a food source.

wow.
you think the ONLY purpose of all animals on this entire planet...is as a food source?
you really DO embrace humans are superior to all, dominion over the earth and all it's creatures seriously.


humans are animals too.
the fact that we place greater importance on our lives above others, is merely instinct, but in reality, we are no more 'important' than any other creature on this earth. in fact, the world would go right on spinning, happily and probably a lot more healthfully, without us on it. so much for our 'importance.' the only creatures we are important to are, mostly, ourselves...and sure, our domesticated pets, tho i'm sure in time they'd adapt to our absence.

jlew24asu

decides2dream wrote:

wow.
you think the ONLY purpose of all animals on this entire planet...is as a food source?

no of course not. thats are not the only purpose. we use them for entertainment as well.

decides2dream wrote:

you really DO embrace humans are superior to all, dominion over the earth and all it's creatures seriously.

yes, you dont? who is superior to humans? aliens in a far off distant galaxy perhaps?

decides2dream wrote:

humans are animals too.

yes we are. the most superior animal on earth.

decides2dream wrote:

the fact that we place greater importance on our lives above others, is merely instinct, but in reality, we are no more 'important' than any other creature on this earth. in fact, the world would go right on spinning, happily and probably a lot more healthfully, without us on it. so much for our 'importance.' the only creatures we are important to are, mostly, ourselves...and sure, our domesticated pets, tho i'm sure in time they'd adapt to our absence.

I got a little watery eyed after reading this. im touched.

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

wow.
you think the ONLY purpose of all animals on this entire planet...is as a food source?

no of course not. thats are not the only purpose. we use them for entertainment as well.

decides2dream wrote:

you really DO embrace humans are superior to all, dominion over the earth and all it's creatures seriously.

yes, you dont? who is superior to humans? aliens in a far off distant galaxy perhaps?

decides2dream wrote:

humans are animals too.

yes we are. the most superior animal on earth.

decides2dream wrote:

the fact that we place greater importance on our lives above others, is merely instinct, but in reality, we are no more 'important' than any other creature on this earth. in fact, the world would go right on spinning, happily and probably a lot more healthfully, without us on it. so much for our 'importance.' the only creatures we are important to are, mostly, ourselves...and sure, our domesticated pets, tho i'm sure in time they'd adapt to our absence.

I got a little watery eyed after reading this. im touched.

i simply don't think in terms of 'superiority' it really has no importance to me. life is all about balance, we all play our role...and who is the top of the food chain, in and of itself, relly doesn't matter in the scheme of things. tho sure, i'd far rather be a human than a chicken! but hey, we don't get any choice in who we are.


i'd say you're something else outside of touched....but i might get banned, so i'll leave it to your imagination.

enjoy your superiority complex.

jlew24asu

decides2dream wrote:

i simply don't think in terms of 'superiority' it really has no importance to me. life is all about balance, we all play our role...and who is the top of the food chain, in and of itself, relly doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

:roll: you realize how easy this is to say being on top of the food chain

decides2dream

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

i simply don't think in terms of 'superiority' it really has no importance to me. life is all about balance, we all play our role...and who is the top of the food chain, in and of itself, relly doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

:roll: you realize how easy this is to say being on top of the food chain

surely.
so what?
obviously, all those 'lower' animals know where they are in the chain too...but they don't actively think about it....they just live. a rabbit instinctively knows his friends and foes, and just deals with his place in the scheme of things. and yes, i realize....they don't have the cognitive ability to do so....but the point is.....who cares? life is simply about living...i tried touching upon that point, that was where you got so 'touched' by my words above. :roll: i don't need to revel in my top of the food chain status. and i may be at the top, but i still can get eaten off by those lower animals. so again, being the 'superior' animal of the group....isn't the end-all, be-all, but sure..it's a great place to be. and i think many here we're simply pointing to the fact that this 'superiority' is also a responsibility. however, you think all animals are here for our food source and entertainment. :? whatever........

just yet another topic we disagree on.....surprising....;)

tybird

decides2dream wrote:

surely.
so what?
obviously, all those 'lower' animals know where they are in the chain too...but they don't actively think about it....they just live. a rabbit instinctively knows his friends and foes, and just deals with his place in the scheme of things. and yes, i realize....they don't have the cognitive ability to do so....but the point is.....who cares? life is simply about living...i tried touching upon that point, that was where you got so 'touched' by my words above. :roll: i don't need to revel in my top of the food chain status. and i may be at the top, but i still can get eaten off by those lower animals. so again, being the 'superior' animal of the group....isn't the end-all, be-all, but sure..it's a great place to be. and i think many here we're simply pointing to the fact that this 'superiority' is also a responsibility.

Yes, we have a responsibility thanks to our awareness to wisely "use" our place in the food web. East of the Mississippi River, we have eliminated the majority of land-based alpha predators, thus it becomes our responsibility to "manage" many of the species held in check by the missing alpha predators. Death by over-population is a far crueler death than death by either arrow or bullet.

weenie

decides2dream wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

i simply don't think in terms of 'superiority' it really has no importance to me. life is all about balance, we all play our role...and who is the top of the food chain, in and of itself, relly doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

:roll: you realize how easy this is to say being on top of the food chain

surely.
so what?
obviously, all those 'lower' animals know where they are in the chain too...but they don't actively think about it....they just live. a rabbit instinctively knows his friends and foes, and just deals with his place in the scheme of things. and yes, i realize....they don't have the cognitive ability to do so....but the point is.....who cares? life is simply about living...i tried touching upon that point, that was where you got so 'touched' by my words above. :roll: i don't need to revel in my top of the food chain status. and i may be at the top, but i still can get eaten off by those lower animals. so again, being the 'superior' animal of the group....isn't the end-all, be-all, but sure..it's a great place to be. and i think many here we're simply pointing to the fact that this 'superiority' is also a responsibility. however, you think all animals are here for our food source and entertainment. :? whatever........

just yet another topic we disagree on.....surprising....;)

He's just goading us now. Forget about trying to get a rational, philosophical response. :?

weenie

tybird wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

surely.
so what?
obviously, all those 'lower' animals know where they are in the chain too...but they don't actively think about it....they just live. a rabbit instinctively knows his friends and foes, and just deals with his place in the scheme of things. and yes, i realize....they don't have the cognitive ability to do so....but the point is.....who cares? life is simply about living...i tried touching upon that point, that was where you got so 'touched' by my words above. :roll: i don't need to revel in my top of the food chain status. and i may be at the top, but i still can get eaten off by those lower animals. so again, being the 'superior' animal of the group....isn't the end-all, be-all, but sure..it's a great place to be. and i think many here we're simply pointing to the fact that this 'superiority' is also a responsibility.

Yes, we have a responsibility thanks to our awareness to wisely "use" our place in the food web. East of the Mississippi River, we have eliminated the majority of land-based alpha predators, thus it becomes our responsibility to "manage" many of the species held in check by the missing alpha predators. Death by over-population is a far crueler death than death by either arrow or bullet.

Maybe one day nature will fight back by trying to eliminate THE alpha predator - man, for fucking everything up so grandly....

jlew24asu

weenie wrote:

He's just goading us now. Forget about trying to get a rational, philosophical response. :?

just to clarify, you want a rational philosophical response to the what if scenario of aliens invading earth and eating us. do I have that right?

jlew24asu

weenie wrote:

Maybe one day nature will fight back by trying to eliminate THE alpha predator - man, for fucking everything up so grandly....

now this makes sense. but it wont be animals or aliens. it will be an earth shattering earthquake, biblical floods, temperature rise (or fall), or wait, an "alien" asteroid.

tybird

weenie wrote:

Maybe one day nature will fight back by trying to eliminate THE alpha predator - man, for fucking everything up so grandly....

There are many things that do prey on us....bacteria, germs and viruses are also part of the food web. They are constantly attempting to reduce our numbers.

tybird

jlew24asu wrote:

weenie wrote:

Maybe one day nature will fight back by trying to eliminate THE alpha predator - man, for fucking everything up so grandly....

now this makes sense. but it wont be animals or aliens. it will be an earth shattering earthquake, biblical floods, temperature rise (or fall), or wait, an "alien" asteroid.

By definition, all asteroids are "alien"......There has been at least Sci-fi novel that used aliens bombarding Earth with asteroids as their initial weapon.....Larry Niven's "Footfall"

decides2dream

weenie wrote:

tybird wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

surely.
so what?
obviously, all those 'lower' animals know where they are in the chain too...but they don't actively think about it....they just live. a rabbit instinctively knows his friends and foes, and just deals with his place in the scheme of things. and yes, i realize....they don't have the cognitive ability to do so....but the point is.....who cares? life is simply about living...i tried touching upon that point, that was where you got so 'touched' by my words above. :roll: i don't need to revel in my top of the food chain status. and i may be at the top, but i still can get eaten off by those lower animals. so again, being the 'superior' animal of the group....isn't the end-all, be-all, but sure..it's a great place to be. and i think many here we're simply pointing to the fact that this 'superiority' is also a responsibility.

Yes, we have a responsibility thanks to our awareness to wisely "use" our place in the food web. East of the Mississippi River, we have eliminated the majority of land-based alpha predators, thus it becomes our responsibility to "manage" many of the species held in check by the missing alpha predators. Death by over-population is a far crueler death than death by either arrow or bullet.

Maybe one day nature will fight back by trying to eliminate THE alpha predator - man, for fucking everything up so grandly....

and if that ever happaned...the earth would happily go on spinning, not 'missing' our ecistance at all. that's how important we are in the scheme of things. i hope that didn't make anyone else get misty-eyed now. and that's it....our 'superiority'....really, in the scheme of things, means...not much. no point reveling in it. it's kinda like the bully pummeling the weaker, what's the point? just because you can? and someday...that weakling may come back at ya, bigger and stronger. mother nature, in the long run, takes care of herself. if we are so foolhardy to think we are *it*...the end-all, be-all..it may well be the end of us, period. sure, no time soon.....but as a species....we best learn to work WITH nature, rather than counter to it. sure, that little invisible germ could knock us out entirely. so much for superiority, top of the food chain and intelligence. true intelligence is knowing you are a PART of avast system of life, not just your pecking order.

decides2dream

tybird wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

weenie wrote:

Maybe one day nature will fight back by trying to eliminate THE alpha predator - man, for fucking everything up so grandly....

now this makes sense. but it wont be animals or aliens. it will be an earth shattering earthquake, biblical floods, temperature rise (or fall), or wait, an "alien" asteroid.

By definition, all asteroids are "alien"......There has been at least Sci-fi novel that used aliens bombarding Earth with asteroids as their initial weapon.....Larry Niven's "Footfall"

and many of our elements are actually 'alien' too...came initially from outer space, the development of our planet. weenie, was it you that tipped me off to that flick? earth - a biography? it was truly awesome!

seriously, i watch a film like that...all about our planet on a geological level...or that amazing series earth....all about animals and such, and truly, you realize your insignificance...in a good way, at least i think so. when you see ALL that is simply going *on* in this world, entirely seperate from us.....all these vast changes, creatures and animals and everything under the sea and it all....doing their thing, enitrely outside of us...it is humbling. who gives a shit about superiority at that point? it just doesn't matter in the scheme of things....life IS. and will continue....with or without us, the superior creatures of this planet. just amazing stuff!

decides2dream

weenie wrote:

tybird wrote:

We are the alpha predator in many cases....the food-chain idea has been replaced by the "food web" idea....In some cases, we are naturally the alpha predator (domestic live stock)....in other cases, we have removed the alpha predators (mountain lions and wolves for example) and have had to assume their role to manage some populations such as White-tailed Deer in the eastern U.S.

If a superior alien race showed up and wanted to eat us.....then the Darwinian rules would apply....we either stop them or we go extinct.

As to most domestic live stock, many of these species have been breed by man over the centuries to such a point that they could not exist in the wild.....the origin species of the domestic cow is long extinct.....farm-bred turkey have lost the ability to fly due to our selective breeding of the species to create a larger breast in it.

I appreciate the scientific perspective, which I'm sure is accurate. I was trying to bring ethics into the conversation based on the poster's assumption of "right" and "wrong". Man is civilized and has a choice. Most of us are not out foraging for our meals and having to engage in life or death conflict in order to survive. As humans, we can choose not to eat animals and still live very healthy lives. Just because we are the "alpha predator", doesn't mean we can't choose to act ethically in terms of how we treat the animals - whether we breed them to kill for food and take away their natural instincts, or whether we choose not to eat them at all. I think evolution includes the mind and spirit as well as the body. JMO I don't necessarily think that people will agree with my particular philosophy, but I do hope they give the whole idea of treating animals ethically some serious thought.

both posts...really well stated. i think that is key, i like that idea of a 'food web' rather than the old chain analogy, i think it more accurately reflects reality. life, and existance, is inter-connected. so there really is no 'who is superior'....but rather, all about balance. i think we as a species realize more and more....everything on this planet has a reason and a purpose. you upset the balance here, it can have devastating consequences elsewhere. we may be the most intelligent species on the planet...but it doesn't mean we have all the answers, know it all, and therefore hold dominion over the earth. mother nature will eventually put us in line....just hopefully not at the expense and devastation of other creatures on this planet. they suffer enough for our sins.


and yes...i readily admit.....i look at it as an 'ideal'...and i certainly don't practice all that i believe. i would love to be able to afford to eat all free-range meat and such. i don't b/c it simply is too pricey for me. and yes, it is my choice. i am choosing my life comforts over another animals. i am not against eating other animals, i do believe it's natural (tho i agree we can certainly live w/o animal fats) but our current system of food is about profit and not health...and certainly not about any respect for life. so yea, i do feel guilt about it, yet still do so. :oops: however, sure...i do try in other ways....cruelty-free products and the like, and supporting animal rights organizations, etc. i'm definitely imperfect in general...and most definitely here. however, i absolutely do see the 'point' of choosing carefully, and yes...trying as much as possible....to be cruelty-free. i wish there was way we could go back, change our factory farming ways.....get rid of em, b/c then free-range meat/eggs/dairy would be more affordable for all. and i know supporting current free-range farms is a start, but sadly, overall...outside my regular market budget. just figured i'd say that lest one call my a hypocrite. i readily admit i am.