Tamir Rice shooting (12yr old)

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  • JWPearlJWPearl Posts: 19,893
    Smellyman said:

    If there were more guns on the streets less incidents like this would happen........

    Sorry but your nuts, here in Western Australia we have strict firearms in other words it's not allowed and we hardly have any reports of gun violence, it's rare, more knife attacks here
    number 6...
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,933
    JWPearl said:

    Smellyman said:

    If there were more guns on the streets less incidents like this would happen........

    Sorry but your nuts, here in Western Australia we have strict firearms in other words it's not allowed and we hardly have any reports of gun violence, it's rare, more knife attacks here
    That makes sense... I don't think the total number of people with murderous tendencies per population would change too much whether guns are around or not: in America they use firearms to do their damage, where you are they use knives.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,500
    Smellyman said:

    If there were more guns on the streets less incidents like this would happen........

    This must be sarcasm....or smellyman's brain has died and is starting to smell...
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,933
    rgambs said:

    Smellyman said:

    If there were more guns on the streets less incidents like this would happen........

    This must be sarcasm....or smellyman's brain has died and is starting to smell...
    :-&

    And here I thought that was me...
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    Tamir Rice and John Crawford OHIO

    http://rt.com/usa/193656-guns-walmart-crawford-shooting/

    Ohio is open carry...I can walk around Ohio with a real gun and buy lattes while Christmas shopping not because of the law but because Im a WMA.

    “Ohio is an ‘open-carry’ state. So even if Crawford were carrying a real, fully loaded rifle, why would that raise any alarms? How could that possibly be a reason to kill him?”

    At the time, Green County police responded to a 911 call from another shopper reporting that Crawford was waving a firearm at customers. Police claim Crawford refused to put down his weapon – a toy replica of a rifle – when they approached him. They then shot the 22-year-old twice.

    On September 24, an Ohio grand jury declined to indict the two police officers responsible, ruling they had responded appropriately. Shortly after the announcement, surveillance video of the incident was released which seemed to contradict police accounts. Police said in their report that Crawford ignored their numerous orders to drop the rifle before he was shot. However, the video – obtained by the Xenia Daily Gazette – shows Crawford being fired upon seconds after police encounter him.
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,500
    edited December 2014
    JC29856 said:

    Tamir Rice and John Crawford OHIO

    http://rt.com/usa/193656-guns-walmart-crawford-shooting/

    Ohio is open carry...I can walk around Ohio with a real gun and buy lattes while Christmas shopping not because of the law but because Im a WMA.

    “Ohio is an ‘open-carry’ state. So even if Crawford were carrying a real, fully loaded rifle, why would that raise any alarms? How could that possibly be a reason to kill him?”

    At the time, Green County police responded to a 911 call from another shopper reporting that Crawford was waving a firearm at customers. Police claim Crawford refused to put down his weapon – a toy replica of a rifle – when they approached him. They then shot the 22-year-old twice.

    On September 24, an Ohio grand jury declined to indict the two police officers responsible, ruling they had responded appropriately. Shortly after the announcement, surveillance video of the incident was released which seemed to contradict police accounts. Police said in their report that Crawford ignored their numerous orders to drop the rifle before he was shot. However, the video – obtained by the Xenia Daily Gazette – shows Crawford being fired upon seconds after police encounter him.

    Video doesn't lie. In either case. Law abiding citizens shot without being given time to do right OR wrong. Is it because they were black? That probably has less to do with why the police shot them, and more to do with why 911 was called in the first place.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 6,933
    edited December 2014
    rgambs said:

    JC29856 said:

    Tamir Rice and John Crawford OHIO

    http://rt.com/usa/193656-guns-walmart-crawford-shooting/

    Ohio is open carry...I can walk around Ohio with a real gun and buy lattes while Christmas shopping not because of the law but because Im a WMA.

    “Ohio is an ‘open-carry’ state. So even if Crawford were carrying a real, fully loaded rifle, why would that raise any alarms? How could that possibly be a reason to kill him?”

    At the time, Green County police responded to a 911 call from another shopper reporting that Crawford was waving a firearm at customers. Police claim Crawford refused to put down his weapon – a toy replica of a rifle – when they approached him. They then shot the 22-year-old twice.

    On September 24, an Ohio grand jury declined to indict the two police officers responsible, ruling they had responded appropriately. Shortly after the announcement, surveillance video of the incident was released which seemed to contradict police accounts. Police said in their report that Crawford ignored their numerous orders to drop the rifle before he was shot. However, the video – obtained by the Xenia Daily Gazette – shows Crawford being fired upon seconds after police encounter him.

    Video doesn't lie. In either case. Law abiding citizens shot without being given time to do right OR wrong. Is it because they were black? That probably has less to do with why the police shot them, and more to do with why 911 was called in the first place.
    The bolded sentence is the key point here. We have impartial technology to help gather impartial evidence that we are not taking advantage of - and issues like these show that they aren't outlandish or unnecessary. While most decisions with financial risk are weighed in dollars, for police officers, the opportunity cost of not implementing wearable always-on video cameras is measured in lives, and not dollars.

    What's the currency rate between lives and dollars? Maybe I should be specific since it doesn't seem to be consistent: Black lives and dollars? White lives and dollars? American lives and dollars? Iraqi lives and dollars?
    Post edited by benjs on
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    To thread police
    It's in Ohio and its about cops shooting people, then suing people?


    http://thefreethoughtproject.com/non-black-cops-suing-dept/#m6dh1BHKFzhwOhKF.99
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 2,879
    rgambs said:

    Smellyman said:

    If there were more guns on the streets less incidents like this would happen........

    This must be sarcasm....or smellyman's brain has died and is starting to smell...
    I thought my posting history would make the sarcasm obvious, but I guess I don't post enough anymore.

    Since unsung and godfather hadn't chimed in, I thought I would post for them.
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    I'm wondering what protocols were broken here. Was it the dispatcher? Should she tell the officers it could be a toy? If she does, will that effect the officers approach? Did the officer give verbal commands while the car was moving? It doesn't look like he had the time to do it out of the car.
    Jealousy is ugly.
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    Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.

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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,500
    Smellyman said:

    rgambs said:

    Smellyman said:

    If there were more guns on the streets less incidents like this would happen........

    This must be sarcasm....or smellyman's brain has died and is starting to smell...
    I thought my posting history would make the sarcasm obvious, but I guess I don't post enough anymore.

    Since unsung and godfather hadn't chimed in, I thought I would post for them.
    I never noticed your avatar before...awesomeness!!
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,500

    I'm wondering what protocols were broken here. Was it the dispatcher? Should she tell the officers it could be a toy? If she does, will that effect the officers approach? Did the officer give verbal commands while the car was moving? It doesn't look like he had the time to do it out of the car.

    Yeah I'd like to know as well. If protocol was followed, perhaps it should be adjusted a bit to avoid this sort of tragedy.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    Even giving the police the benefit of the doubt with the information they had going in, you have to think they thought the hun was real. When the cops called for a medic, they claimed the victim to be about 20. Does that kid look older than his age? I'm not sure you can say they should have used a taser or mace in a gun fight. This is definitely a different situation all together than the Brown case. I will be very interested in seeing how this plays out.
    Jealousy is ugly.
    Elistist Fucking Asshole.

    Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.

    Noblesville 8-17-98
    Jacksonville 11-25-12 EV
    Charlotte 10-30-13
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 9,500

    Even giving the police the benefit of the doubt with the information they had going in, you have to think they thought the hun was real. When the cops called for a medic, they claimed the victim to be about 20. Does that kid look older than his age? I'm not sure you can say they should have used a taser or mace in a gun fight. This is definitely a different situation all together than the Brown case. I will be very interested in seeing how this plays out.

    Yeah, I fully expect there to be no indictment, not enough media traction.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 6,566
    This was just horrible police work. I don't see an indictment either but the attempted cover up is kind of disturbing.
    Former BernieBro, turned Hillary rotten Clinton #1 Fanboy

    1998: Noblesville
    2003: Noblesville
    2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville
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  • This was just horrible police work. I don't see an indictment either but the attempted cover up is kind of disturbing.

    People have rallied around the Brown case, yet this one- so clear in my mind with video footage (albeit poor) and a story that simply cannot justify the shooting- begs for an indictment.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 6,566

    This was just horrible police work. I don't see an indictment either but the attempted cover up is kind of disturbing.

    People have rallied around the Brown case, yet this one- so clear in my mind with video footage (albeit poor) and a story that simply cannot justify the shooting- begs for an indictment.
    The shooting definitely isn't justified but the cop most likely thought he was taking out a possible shooter. He was a rookie that panicked....he most likely won't serve again but I don't see it being criminal.

    Former BernieBro, turned Hillary rotten Clinton #1 Fanboy

    1998: Noblesville
    2003: Noblesville
    2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville
    2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago
    2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1
  • This was just horrible police work. I don't see an indictment either but the attempted cover up is kind of disturbing.

    People have rallied around the Brown case, yet this one- so clear in my mind with video footage (albeit poor) and a story that simply cannot justify the shooting- begs for an indictment.
    The shooting definitely isn't justified but the cop most likely thought he was taking out a possible shooter. He was a rookie that panicked....he most likely won't serve again but I don't see it being criminal.

    You might be right. This may be a case of sheer incompetence. Brutal regardless.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 6,566

    This was just horrible police work. I don't see an indictment either but the attempted cover up is kind of disturbing.

    People have rallied around the Brown case, yet this one- so clear in my mind with video footage (albeit poor) and a story that simply cannot justify the shooting- begs for an indictment.
    The shooting definitely isn't justified but the cop most likely thought he was taking out a possible shooter. He was a rookie that panicked....he most likely won't serve again but I don't see it being criminal.

    You might be right. This may be a case of sheer incompetence. Brutal regardless.
    Very....but it (in my opinion) still points out our ridiculous gun culture. We allow people to open carry (Ohio is an open carry state) yet we freak out when we see people with guns. This is exactly why the majority of police chiefs aren't in favor of this crap....they don't know who the bad guys are anymore.

    Former BernieBro, turned Hillary rotten Clinton #1 Fanboy

    1998: Noblesville
    2003: Noblesville
    2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville
    2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago
    2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    Not knowing that a camera recorded the entire incident, the police told what appear to be at least five lies about what happened.

    1. Police said that Tamir Rice was seated at a table with other people.

    2. Police said that as they pulled up, they saw Tamir Rice grab the gun and put it in his waistband.

    3. Police said they got out of the car and told Tamir Rice three times to put his hands up but he refused.

    4. Police said that Tamir Rice then reached into his waistband and pulled out the gun, and was then shot and killed by Officer Timothy Loehmann.

    5. Timothy Loehmann was described as a rookie.


    http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/02/1348833/-Tamir-Rice-The-story-behind-the-execution-character-assassination-coverup-of-a-senseless-murder#
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    1. Tamir Rice was not seated at a table with other people.

    2. Tamir Rice does not appear to grab the gun and put it in his waistband.

    3. Police shot and killed Tamir in less than two seconds and could not have told him to put his hands up three times.

    4. Tamir Rice absolutely does not pull the air gun out of his waistband and brandish it in any way. This fact is so crucial.

    5. Timothy Loehmann was not a rookie, but had been an officer for over two years.
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    Tamir was buried today.
    The officer Timothy Loehmann was ruled unfit for police service 2 years prior to killing Rice.
    His handgun performance was dismal, he often became distracted and weepy and in communicative, chief Jim Polak of Independence Ohio.
    Two weeks after a recommendation to release Loehmann of his duties, he resigned.
    In March of 2014 Cleveland PD hired Loehmann. The rest for Tamir Rice is history.
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    CMTSU

    “During a state range qualification course, Ptl Loehmann was distracted and weepy,” Polak wrote, naming the trainer as Sgt Tinnirello. “[Loehmann] could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal. Sgt Tinnirello tried to work through this with Ptl Loehmann by giving him some time. But, after some talking it was clear to Sgt Tinnirello that the recruit was just not mentally prepared to be doing firearm training. ...

    “Ptl. Loehmann continued with his emotional meltdown to a point where Sgt. Tinnirello could not take him into the store, so they went to get something to eat and he continued to try and calm Ptl Loehmann. Sgt Tinnirello describes the recruit as being very downtrodden, melancholy with some light crying. Sgt. Tinnirello later found this emotional perplexity was due to a personal issue with Ptl. Loehmann’s on and off again girlfriend whom he was dealing with till 0400 hrs the night before. (Pti. Loehmann was scheduled for 0800 the morning in question).
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 13,458
    JC29856 said:

    1. Tamir Rice was not seated at a table with other people.

    2. Tamir Rice does not appear to grab the gun and put it in his waistband.

    3. Police shot and killed Tamir in less than two seconds and could not have told him to put his hands up three times.

    4. Tamir Rice absolutely does not pull the air gun out of his waistband and brandish it in any way. This fact is so crucial.

    5. Timothy Loehmann was not a rookie, but had been an officer for over two years.

    #5 how was he not considered a rookie still? Resigned a position in the midst of training in dec '12.
    Not hired by Cleveland until march of this year. What was he doing in between for those year and 3 months? Further at the time of this tragedy , he had only been on the force all of 7 months give or take a week or two? Riding with a field training officer? Do nonrookie officers ride that long with training officers?

    Keep it honest man.
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  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Charleston, SCPosts: 8,661
    edited December 2014
    mickeyrat said:

    JC29856 said:

    1. Tamir Rice was not seated at a table with other people.

    2. Tamir Rice does not appear to grab the gun and put it in his waistband.

    3. Police shot and killed Tamir in less than two seconds and could not have told him to put his hands up three times.

    4. Tamir Rice absolutely does not pull the air gun out of his waistband and brandish it in any way. This fact is so crucial.

    5. Timothy Loehmann was not a rookie, but had been an officer for over two years.

    #5 how was he not considered a rookie still? Resigned a position in the midst of training in dec '12.
    Not hired by Cleveland until march of this year. What was he doing in between for those year and 3 months? Further at the time of this tragedy , he had only been on the force all of 7 months give or take a week or two? Riding with a field training officer? Do nonrookie officers ride that long with training officers?

    Keep it honest man.
    In the fire service, you could be considered a probie for years if no new guys are hired into your house. But I think for police, you are considered a rookie for a year. I'm not 100% about that. Either way, 1/5 doesn't look good for him. But that cop in NYC didn't get indicted, I can't see how they will indict this guy. The Ferguson case aside (because I think Wilson did NOT commit a crime), the police are literally getting away with murder.
    Post edited by Last-12-Exit on
    Jealousy is ugly.
    Elistist Fucking Asshole.

    Mine is mine and yours won't take its place.

    Noblesville 8-17-98
    Jacksonville 11-25-12 EV
    Charlotte 10-30-13
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    mickeyrat said:

    JC29856 said:

    1. Tamir Rice was not seated at a table with other people.

    2. Tamir Rice does not appear to grab the gun and put it in his waistband.

    3. Police shot and killed Tamir in less than two seconds and could not have told him to put his hands up three times.

    4. Tamir Rice absolutely does not pull the air gun out of his waistband and brandish it in any way. This fact is so crucial.

    5. Timothy Loehmann was not a rookie, but had been an officer for over two years.

    #5 how was he not considered a rookie still? Resigned a position in the midst of training in dec '12.
    Not hired by Cleveland until march of this year. What was he doing in between for those year and 3 months? Further at the time of this tragedy , he had only been on the force all of 7 months give or take a week or two? Riding with a field training officer? Do nonrookie officers ride that long with training officers?

    Keep it honest man.
    That's from the kos article above...they don't say what he did in between independence and Cleveland. I'm assuming he patrolled somewhere. I'm sure it will be disclosed at some point, either way Ill post.
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
  • deadendpdeadendp Northeast OhioPosts: 6,248
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 8,662
    why is the St Louis PD tweeting about tamir rice?


    http://jezebel.com/st-louis-pd-posts-tips-to-keep-your-kids-from-getting-1666683225
    "your children should have rules for toys gun"
    your officers should have rules for real guns!

    This morning, the St. Louis Police Department put, on its official Twitter and Facebook accounts, a rambling, weird message to parents of children who play with toy guns—guns like the one 12-year-old Tamir Rice was playing with before an officer rolled up and immediately shot and killed the boy. The message: here are some important safety tips for kids so they don't get themselves shot by a trigger-happy police officer LARPing Rambo.
    (And these questions can be re-phrased and asked about 90% of what you asked)
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