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End of the American Republic?

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  • Tim SimmonsTim Simmons Posts: 9,305
    edited July 8
    Basically I'd rather blow up liberalism, progressivism, the Democratic party, etc... fucking TRYING something. Trying to reach people. rather than just say, 'do what republicans are doing'. If we die into fascism, I'd rather say at least I didn't compromise my morals.



    Democrats must also lead with a modern economic industrial policy. That means reshoring high-tech manufacturing, building supply chains with allies, and investing in frontier industries such as artificial intelligence, clean energy and biotech. Let’s cut red tape, reform outdated permitting processes, and rebuild the nation’s infrastructure to create middle-class jobs and boost long-term growth. We should champion labor and focus on policies that encourage job creation, wage growth and economic security. Strengthening collective bargaining and passing laws supporting worker unionization will help lift stagnant wages, enhance job security and ensure fair compensation.”

    Most of this is empty nonsense. Its either stuff Democrats already support (so...stay the course?) or its unworkable (mainly re-shoring high tech manufacturing). Agree on cutting red tape in regards to building and permitting. YIMBY all day.

    We need to reach moderates to win elections in the future, which becomes more difficult with those ten electoral votes heading south. I don’t think socialist policies are the way to go. Mamdani is the byproduct of a low turnout summer primary in an ultra liberal city. Not a visionary for the party at large.

    Wasn't this the highest turnout for a Mayoral primary in decades? He reaches lapsed and unmotivated voters and the young. Thats who dems need to capture and if you offer them kitchen table issues, moderates will follow too. I think this dude misses the mark in his piece. Glad he's respected, but this piece an't it. An op-ed in the nations largest business newspaper aimed at the wealthy saying taxes on the wealthy are bad rings hollow as a blueprint for what Dems should do. 


  • Tim SimmonsTim Simmons Posts: 9,305
    I think the grain of slat you need to take with the Mamdani pushback is, establishment Dems are scared of his grassroots success. It basically exposes the man behind the curtain. THIS is what Dems need. Flush out the establishment. They have failed us.

  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 41,679
    I think the grain of slat you need to take with the Mamdani pushback is, establishment Dems are scared of his grassroots success. It basically exposes the man behind the curtain. THIS is what Dems need. Flush out the establishment. They have failed us.

    Gee, sounds like AOC.
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  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,599
    I think the grain of slat you need to take with the Mamdani pushback is, establishment Dems are scared of his grassroots success. It basically exposes the man behind the curtain. THIS is what Dems need. Flush out the establishment. They have failed us.



    The “fear” is that his type of policies just don’t sell nationwide. IF they did id be jumping for joy…If NYC wants free transit, daycare and trans treatments, and rent freezes, and many more goodies, and pay for it with tens of billions in new funding, great for them it doesn’t hurt anyone outside the city…but it’s just too easy for businesses/wealthy to leave. The movement is going nowhere outside its borders and doesn’t even sell in staten island or many of the suburbs, let alone PA or other swing states.

    The turnout for this primary may have been up, but summer elections in general have low turnout compared to the fall. It’s one of the things we complain about, that primaries allow extremes of each party to select extreme nominees. Now we get a socialist and all of a sudden it’s a good thing?

    When AOC types start winning senate seats or electoral votes in swing states, then we can jump for joy together. The trend unfortunately, (and hopefully Dems saw this in the election) is the exact opposite.
  • Tim SimmonsTim Simmons Posts: 9,305
    Policies for NYC may not work nationwide, but that op ed notes that he tapped into the economic anxiety and offered policy that could help relieve that. THAT will work nationwide, certainly for regional elections. It will be a good blueprint for 2028. 

  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 41,679
    Sure, we can’t possibly raise taxes or provide for a higher minimum wage. Impossible. There’s just not enough to go around.


    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Tim SimmonsTim Simmons Posts: 9,305
    edited July 8
    The pushback on him seems so cynical especially when there are stories like this:

    https://archive.is/20250708172330/https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/07/nyregion/mamdani-cuomo-adams-democrats.html


    you can say stuff like, ‘well we don’t think it’s a viable path forward’ which would be fair, if they were actually fucking winning shit. 
    Post edited by Tim Simmons on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 41,679
    The pushback on him seems so cynical especially when there are stories like this:

    https://archive.is/20250708172330/https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/07/nyregion/mamdani-cuomo-adams-democrats.html


    you can say stuff like, ‘well we don’t think it’s a viable path forward’ which would be fair, if they were actually fucking winning shit. 
    He’s a threat to the establishment and they’ll do anything and everything to destroy him. Hell, COOTWH has already threatened to deport him. Welcome to the dystopian future.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Tim SimmonsTim Simmons Posts: 9,305
    edited July 8
    All because he wants to take care of people at the expense of [checks notes] people who have lots of money
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 31,331
    Sure, we can’t possibly raise taxes or provide for a higher minimum wage. Impossible. There’s just not enough to go around.


    Not one woman! 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,533
    Mamani is a democratic socialist.  It's odd to my that so many people cringe at any mention of the word socialism, especially the milder version, democratic socialism.  They hear that word and automatically think of communism as if they are the same thing.  For some reason, many people prefer an oligarchic pecking order to a more egalitarian society.  Countries that follow democratic socialism (Scandinavian countries, France, Spain, for example) have fewer problems, less violence, and happier people.
    But imagine the U.S. without problems, violence, disparity, and anger?  Noooooooooo, we can't have none of that!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 1,855
    Sure, we can’t possibly raise taxes or provide for a higher minimum wage. Impossible. There’s just not enough to go around.


    Hmmm.  No women.  Not that I’m surprised I just find it quite sad.  Oh well, the meek shall inherit the earth.  
  • StoveStove Posts: 367
    Good night, ‘Murikkka. We hardly knew ya. From Letter From An American:

    At about 10:30 this morning local time,  heavily armed masked agents in trucks, armored vehicles, a helicopter, on foot, and on horseback, accompanied by a gun mounted on a truck raided the MacArthur Park area of Los Angeles. Journalist Mel Buer reported that agents from Customs and Border Patrol (CBP), the National Guard, and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) brought what he called a “massive federal presence.”  

    Fox News Channel personnel were embedded with the raiders and broadcast throughout the operation, suggesting that it was designed for the media as a show of force to intimidate opponents. CBP brought its own press team, and its people were also taking photos of bystanders. After Los Angeles mayor Karen Bass arrived and spoke with Border Patrol Chief Gregory Bovino,  the agents left. It is not clear that there was a specific target for the raid, or that anyone was arrested.

    Later, Bovino told Bill Melugin of the Fox News Channel, “I don’t work for Karen Bass. Better get used to us now, cause this is going to be normal very soon. We will go anywhere, anytime we want in Los Angeles.”

    War is coming....

    To America or LA...it won't be much of a war...everyone has bombs now. It's like when people say WW3. We all nuke each other...thats it. 
  • Tim SimmonsTim Simmons Posts: 9,305
    brianlux said:
    Mamani is a democratic socialist.  It's odd to my that so many people cringe at any mention of the word socialism, especially the milder version, democratic socialism.  They hear that word and automatically think of communism as if they are the same thing. 
    I mean, thats been the plan of conservative messaging and fear mongering for 60 years. to say nothing of people not really understand the basic tenants of these ideologies. 

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,533
    brianlux said:
    Mamani is a democratic socialist.  It's odd to my that so many people cringe at any mention of the word socialism, especially the milder version, democratic socialism.  They hear that word and automatically think of communism as if they are the same thing. 
    I mean, thats been the plan of conservative messaging and fear mongering for 60 years. to say nothing of people not really understand the basic tenants of these ideologies. 


    60 years of that nonsense sounds about right.  That's about when I first heard this kind of ignorant far right bullshit being tossed around.  Kind of goes to show some things never change. 
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,570
    edited July 9
    brianlux said:
    Mamani is a democratic socialist.  It's odd to my that so many people cringe at any mention of the word socialism, especially the milder version, democratic socialism.  They hear that word and automatically think of communism as if they are the same thing.  For some reason, many people prefer an oligarchic pecking order to a more egalitarian society.  Countries that follow democratic socialism (Scandinavian countries, France, Spain, for example) have fewer problems, less violence, and happier people.
    But imagine the U.S. without problems, violence, disparity, and anger?  Noooooooooo, we can't have none of that!

    It just seems like ridiculous semantics to me. The majority of Americans, apparently, don't even know wtf they are talking about when it comes to this, made mostly obvious by how misused the term "communist" is in the country. It's pure stupidity  
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,533
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    Mamani is a democratic socialist.  It's odd to my that so many people cringe at any mention of the word socialism, especially the milder version, democratic socialism.  They hear that word and automatically think of communism as if they are the same thing.  For some reason, many people prefer an oligarchic pecking order to a more egalitarian society.  Countries that follow democratic socialism (Scandinavian countries, France, Spain, for example) have fewer problems, less violence, and happier people.
    But imagine the U.S. without problems, violence, disparity, and anger?  Noooooooooo, we can't have none of that!

    It just seems like ridiculous semantics to me. The majority of Americans, apparently, don't even know wtf they are talking about when it comes to this, made mostly obvious by how misused the term "communist" is in the country. It's pure stupidity  

    Exactly!  
    And even when the difference between concepts has been pointed out god knows how many times, the same misunderstanding keeps showing up. 
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,592
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    Mamani is a democratic socialist.  It's odd to my that so many people cringe at any mention of the word socialism, especially the milder version, democratic socialism.  They hear that word and automatically think of communism as if they are the same thing.  For some reason, many people prefer an oligarchic pecking order to a more egalitarian society.  Countries that follow democratic socialism (Scandinavian countries, France, Spain, for example) have fewer problems, less violence, and happier people.
    But imagine the U.S. without problems, violence, disparity, and anger?  Noooooooooo, we can't have none of that!

    It just seems like ridiculous semantics to me. The majority of Americans, apparently, don't even know wtf they are talking about when it comes to this, made mostly obvious by how misused the term "communist" is in the country. It's pure stupidity  

    Exactly!  
    And even when the difference between concepts has been pointed out god knows how many times, the same misunderstanding keeps showing up. 
    It's been going on for decades. Before the installation of Pinochet in Chile to avoid "socialism."

    And given the expanding fear machine, people are becoming more accepting of doing anything terrible because communism must not happen...even if communism is the same stuff we used to embrace.
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  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,599
    Policies for NYC may not work nationwide, but that op ed notes that he tapped into the economic anxiety and offered policy that could help relieve that. THAT will work nationwide, certainly for regional elections. It will be a good blueprint for 2028. 

    It’s great that you are discussing politely, but I’m struggling to think of an example where someone promised free stuff in swing states and voters responded with loyalty to those politicians statewide.

    the key to political power the next few cycles is the White House and senate, and with more and more states being out of reach for democrats, it’s difficult to envision a Mamdani AOC  wing of the party be nothing more than a tool for the right to win senate elections and electoral votes. “Look at all the new socialists!!” Boom ten million new gop voters. . Unless I’m missing a trend the last few cycles. 2020 was great, but didn’t last, and voters were not loyal to the stuff Biden brought them, and Harris didn’t even fight for recognition of those wins in the election. And there were a lot of 2020 mail in voters that for some reason don’t have 30 minutes to show up in person next time.
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,599
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    Mamani is a democratic socialist.  It's odd to my that so many people cringe at any mention of the word socialism, especially the milder version, democratic socialism.  They hear that word and automatically think of communism as if they are the same thing.  For some reason, many people prefer an oligarchic pecking order to a more egalitarian society.  Countries that follow democratic socialism (Scandinavian countries, France, Spain, for example) have fewer problems, less violence, and happier people.
    But imagine the U.S. without problems, violence, disparity, and anger?  Noooooooooo, we can't have none of that!

    It just seems like ridiculous semantics to me. The majority of Americans, apparently, don't even know wtf they are talking about when it comes to this, made mostly obvious by how misused the term "communist" is in the country. It's pure stupidity  

    Exactly!  
    And even when the difference between concepts has been pointed out god knows how many times, the same misunderstanding keeps showing up. 
    Promising free stuff just doesn’t work in states that swing senate and electoral votes. Y’all are serious about that elitist take? Yes, to support these views above that centrists know nothing, we are stupid, and it’s all semantics. Climb out of the hole already and see the sun.


    Dems have lost three states the Last ten years (OH IA FL), likely not coming back for decades, and that Texas blue shift never happened…and voters are physically moving from the blue states for red states, as it’s projected to cost blue states Ten electoral votes and house seats in the next census.  All moving south. But yes, to the ultra left it’s all semantics and we are stupid.


    If that projected census data is a misunderstanding, and the challenge of winning back the senate (holding four dem swing seats with many retiring) and finding four new red senate seats to take in the next two cycles, that’s happening with a socialist movement?


    There is good reason the centrists (like that op ed from Rep Suozzi ) towards the socialist woke wing of the party, and the ultra left has no details nor any realistic plan to win in middle America , where it’s desperately needed. I’m sure Rep Suozzi has no clue what he is talking about. Winning NYC is meaningless to the party and the country. It’ll just be fodder for the Rs to satirize.
  • Tim SimmonsTim Simmons Posts: 9,305
    Policies for NYC may not work nationwide, but that op ed notes that he tapped into the economic anxiety and offered policy that could help relieve that. THAT will work nationwide, certainly for regional elections. It will be a good blueprint for 2028. 

    It’s great that you are discussing politely, but I’m struggling to think of an example where someone promised free stuff in swing states and voters responded with loyalty to those politicians statewide.

    the key to political power the next few cycles is the White House and senate, and with more and more states being out of reach for democrats, it’s difficult to envision a Mamdani AOC  wing of the party be nothing more than a tool for the right to win senate elections and electoral votes. “Look at all the new socialists!!” Boom ten million new gop voters. . Unless I’m missing a trend the last few cycles. 2020 was great, but didn’t last, and voters were not loyal to the stuff Biden brought them, and Harris didn’t even fight for recognition of those wins in the election. And there were a lot of 2020 mail in voters that for some reason don’t have 30 minutes to show up in person next time.
    IDK, this says more about Biden and Harris than it does about the policies.


    But politicians do this stuff all the time. Anytime one promises a tax cut, or Obama's healthcare plan. Doing popular stuff that people like is good and has success. 


  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,599
    Policies for NYC may not work nationwide, but that op ed notes that he tapped into the economic anxiety and offered policy that could help relieve that. THAT will work nationwide, certainly for regional elections. It will be a good blueprint for 2028. 

    It’s great that you are discussing politely, but I’m struggling to think of an example where someone promised free stuff in swing states and voters responded with loyalty to those politicians statewide.

    the key to political power the next few cycles is the White House and senate, and with more and more states being out of reach for democrats, it’s difficult to envision a Mamdani AOC  wing of the party be nothing more than a tool for the right to win senate elections and electoral votes. “Look at all the new socialists!!” Boom ten million new gop voters. . Unless I’m missing a trend the last few cycles. 2020 was great, but didn’t last, and voters were not loyal to the stuff Biden brought them, and Harris didn’t even fight for recognition of those wins in the election. And there were a lot of 2020 mail in voters that for some reason don’t have 30 minutes to show up in person next time.
    IDK, this says more about Biden and Harris than it does about the policies.


    But politicians do this stuff all the time. Anytime one promises a tax cut, or Obama's healthcare plan. Doing popular stuff that people like is good and has success. 



    I don’t see any other way to bridge the gap between the country we want and the country we have. Looking at the complaints above from those posters that people in the center don’t understand Democratic socialism and they’re not smart if they don’t get it.

    the problem is we need politicians that know the country that is. Then do things out of the Democratic socialist playbook …and then tell the people look what we did …government can fix infrastructure. Government can fix the semiconductor chip problem. Government can make America a leader in renewable energy. Biden did all that, but the Democrats didn’t fight for it like their lives depended on it. 

    Harris had too many other priorities. If she said “….correction , I disagree with President Biden on X and Y… but when he delivered clean energy. When he delivered semiconductor chips, when he delivered an infrastructure bill Republicans failed at for 20 years” and she fought for that message like her life depended on it, we may be having a very different political discussion right now.


    so if we’re gonna do things that borrow from the idea that government can fix problems and don’t fight for it we will never get the country we want and people like mamdani are just wasting their time if they try to take their ideas outside of the isolated Democratic Enclaves that still exist 
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