Ed and God

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  • timsinclair
    timsinclair Posts: 222
    Collin wrote:
    Things are not as simple as you'd want them to be.

    Why do we have a shared sense of morality? Do we? What do you think about abortion? Let's compare your answer with some other answers. Furthermore, whatever sense of shared morality we have, if we have one, does not mean god created man at all. That's the problem I have with intelligent design. Jump straight to god whenever it fits. What about other factors? Environment, fear... Or of course... Religious doctrine! They've been known to impose their will on people, just open a history book ;) Without any proof whatsoever that their god even exists.

    Evolution has nothing to do with society. Nothing.

    You may well be right, I can accept that morals may well be entirely taught. certainly, in other cultures people used to be taught that human sacrifice or cannibalism was ok and they seemed to accept it. I am glad that you do not agree with Haekel that 'politics is applied biology', I can see that you actively resist getting your morals from evolution but I dont share your optimism that there is no connection between evolution and society. If you tell someone all there life that they are just animals they will act like animals, as the bloodhound gang put so eloquently: 'you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the discovery channel'
  • Fahka
    Fahka Posts: 3,187
    grazman wrote:
    Your not born knowing that murder is wrong, your taught and you learn that murder is wrong when your growing up. Your born knowing that murder is a natural thing to do. Animal instinct is present in all forms of life including Humans. If something is a threat to you you will protect yourself. Kill or be kill.


    I beg to differ really.


    When faced with death upon ones self of course people will defend themselves. Thats not murder though. That also doesn't mean we arent naturally born with certain morals right off the bat. Of course we are laced with stuff that we cant help but naturally do. I dont think things like "murder" "raping" or anything of that nature has to be taught. No one ever set me down and told me stuff like that was wrong.. I sure as hell dont hurt anyone. Some things do come naturally. We are not all the pig headed animals that people like to think we are.

    Im sorry but whens the last time you saw a monkey with a star bucks latte and an accounting career? Humans - 1 Animals - 0


    Just sayin :D
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    timsinclair wrote:
    You may well be right, I can accept that morals may well be entirely taught. certainly, in other cultures people used to be taught that human sacrifice or cannibalism was ok and they seemed to accept it. I am glad that you do not agree with Haekel that 'politics is applied biology', I can see that you actively resist getting your morals from evolution but I dont share your optimism that there is no connection between evolution and society. If you tell someone all there life that they are just animals they will act like animals, as the bloodhound gang put so eloquently: 'you and me baby aint nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the discovery channel'

    Indeed, human sacrifice was indeed acceptable in certain cultures, religious cultures, for example ;)

    I do not actively resis getting my morals from evolution at all. I do feel we are just one of the species here on earth, we happen to be the dominant species and we have the capability to think about things... Just read some of the Greek philosophers. Some even influenced christian theology.

    So I do basically believe we are just animals, but I don't act like an animal. I guess your theory is wrong.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    LeatherMandi wrote:
    I dont think things like "murder" "raping" or anything of that nature has to be taught. No one ever set me down and told me stuff like that was wrong.. I sure as hell dont hurt anyone.

    No? You were never taught hurting other kids was wrong? Stealing was wrong?

    You never saw the reactions of your parents when a girl was raped, or someone was murdered?

    You never saw TV shows suggest murder and rape are wrong?

    It's amazing what we pick up.

    I personally think it's a bit of both, nature and nurture.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • Fahka
    Fahka Posts: 3,187
    Collin wrote:
    No? You were never taught hurting other kids was wrong? Stealing was wrong?

    You never saw the reactions of your parents when a girl was raped, or someone was murdered?

    You never saw TV shows suggest murder and rape are wrong?

    It's amazing what we pick up.

    I personally think it's a bit of both, nature and nurture.


    I'm not saying its not in society .. or we aren't by products of it but i also don't think thats the reason why we deem murder wrong. Basically what im saying is... if we both lived in a society where murder was smiled upon..i think we would still feel that its wrong because its within ourselves to know that its not right. You are right though its probably a bit of both.


    It all basically comes down to none of us know squat. .which is more frustrating than it is reassuring i'm noticing :D


    Vedward, ive always looked up to him. He doesn't go around claiming he understand everything like alot of popular musicians/actors ect do.Ive always found comfort ed's indecisiveness. Mostly because thats how i feel.. and lets face it: confusion loves company ;)
  • Keiran
    Keiran Posts: 393
    Um wait a minute . . .

    I thought Eddie WAS God!!!!!

    /sigh

    currently worshiping at the altar of Eddie Vedder
    I wish a guy like Eddie, would like me.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    timsinclair wrote:
    Oh come on Cate, why such pettiness?
    Is it so hard to agree with a believer on even such a minor point? After a long battle, honourable opponents can at least agree on something that does not give either side a victory. Intelligent Design Godfather Philip Johnson, and his arch-Darwinist opponent Michael Ruse respect one another, have the humility to concede a point when it is lost, and are able to be friends. It felt good, after such a long battle (mostly with Collin), to have a moment of agreement and now you've gone and spoiled it. Was I presumtious to conclude that a declared atheist like yourself does not believe in Angels? I think not, unless that is, you dont quite understand what atheism is. But have it your way, if you dont want to be in the honourable opponents club I will delete your name and repost.

    no tim i have no fucking idea that to be considered an atheist i have think that god is non existant. that theres no possiblity that he exists. :rolleyes:
    right now i dont care if i spoiled your warm and fuzzy moment or not. you mentioned me in a post, i simply questioned you putting me together with something ive never mentioned. was it petty of me? was it unchristian of me? again i dont care. whether i believe in angels or not is irrelevant. you assumed, not me. therefore youre in the wrong, not me.
    agree with you on a minor point? what exactly was the point?
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  • JohnWesleyHarding27
    JohnWesleyHarding27 Posts: 21
    does anyone here know the only thing any of you have come remotely close to proving is that there is no proof one way or the other? If you believe it, just be happy you have something to believe in.
  • Fahka
    Fahka Posts: 3,187
    JohnWesleyHarding27 wrote:
    does anyone here know the only thing any of you have come remotely close to proving is that there is no proof one way or the other?




    You are completely right....


    Thats what we are saying :D WE dont know .. it sucks... thats why all should just drink , eat and be merry.....


    For tomorrow we die...
    XO
  • Smellyman2
    Smellyman2 Posts: 689
    My favorite creationist quote

    If we came from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys around?
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    LeatherMandi wrote:
    You are completely right....


    Thats what we are saying :D WE dont know .. it sucks... thats why all should just drink , eat and be merry.....


    For tomorrow we die...
    XO

    and i wanna party with that guy who can turn water into wine. :p:D
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Fahka
    Fahka Posts: 3,187
    catefrances wrote:
    and i wanna party with that guy who can turn water into wine. :p:D


    Im sure if that guy exist.. he is definitely the life of the party :D:D
  • timsinclair
    timsinclair Posts: 222
    Collin wrote:
    Indeed, human sacrifice was indeed acceptable in certain cultures, religious cultures, for example ;)

    I do not actively resis getting my morals from evolution at all. I do feel we are just one of the species here on earth, we happen to be the dominant species and we have the capability to think about things... Just read some of the Greek philosophers. Some even influenced christian theology.

    So I do basically believe we are just animals, but I don't act like an animal. I guess your theory is wrong.

    Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.
  • manipulatedliving
    manipulatedliving Posts: 508
    timsinclair wrote:
    Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.
    I'd rather be with an animal.
    "I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, 1977
  • timsinclair
    timsinclair Posts: 222
    catefrances wrote:
    no tim i have no fucking idea that to be considered an atheist i have think that god is non existant. that theres no possiblity that he exists. :rolleyes:
    right now i dont care if i spoiled your warm and fuzzy moment or not. you mentioned me in a post, i simply questioned you putting me together with something ive never mentioned. was it petty of me? was it unchristian of me? again i dont care. whether i believe in angels or not is irrelevant. you assumed, not me. therefore youre in the wrong, not me.
    agree with you on a minor point? what exactly was the point?

    Um. The point was no-God = no-sin, a point you had argued for against my mate slight. And if you really do believe in angels as an atheist, then I apologise. You were not being petty, you are just a bit confused.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    timsinclair wrote:
    Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.

    yes... ive seen chimpanzees kidnap another baby and murder it whilst the mother screamed for its return.
    when it comes to humans i think that the so called survival of the fittest in business and politics is just an excuse for bad behaviour. its about taking and becoming the alpha. this of course is indicative of a society that prizes above all else the motto, he with the most, wins. or perhaps gordon gecko said it best in wall street: greed, for want of a better word, is good.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    timsinclair wrote:
    Um. The point was no-God = no-sin, a point you had argued for against my mate slight. And if you really do believe in angels as an atheist, then I apologise. You were not being petty, you are just a bit confused.

    id hardly call it arguing. i stated my point which was questioned, i then clarified my position. that was it.
    and seriously tim, i hadnt even noticed you agreed with me on the no sin/no God thing. i certainly wouldnt have been petty over such a thing as agreeance just to push your buttons. the issue i had with you and the only one i was addressing, was that you included me in something id never even mentioned. thats all.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • timsinclair
    timsinclair Posts: 222
    catefrances wrote:
    id hardly call it arguing. i stated my point which was questioned, i then clarified my position. that was it.
    and seriously tim, i hadnt even noticed you agreed with me on the no sin/no God thing. i certainly wouldnt have been petty over such a thing as agreeance just to push your buttons. the issue i had with you and the only one i was addressing, was that you included me in something id never even mentioned. thats all.

    When I say 'argue' I dont mean something negative. Philosophically 'argument' just means a piece of reasoning. Ok, if you really hadn't noticed that this was the point i was agreeing with you on (although it seems kind of clear on my post) then I withdraw my accusation of pettiness.

    P.s. Just to clarify, do you believe in Angels?
  • manipulatedliving
    manipulatedliving Posts: 508
    this thread makes me want to punch babies in the face....thank the non-god that i'm not in a nursery right now.

    Can we just be pj fans and not worry about religion in the deal? I think Eddie would slap all of us for posting so much in this thread.
    "I feel the same way about disco as I do about herpes." - Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, 1977
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    timsinclair wrote:
    Seems to me you are contradicting yourself a bit here. You must see how 'survival of the fittest' can be used as a rather selfish and agressive rule for living, especially in buisness or politics. Many animals behave like this and many humans do too. Animals are willing to completely wipe out a variant species, as the grey squirrels have done to the red ones over here in England, just as hitler tried to do with the Jews. Animals are also happy to kill eachother to get a desired female, or to rape and kill for fun. There is a part of humans that wants to act like this too, we might call it an 'animal instinct' but many of us resist it, I think you do too.

    I'm not contradicting myself. I can indeed see how "survival of the fittest" can be used as an excuse for selfish behaviour, and I can see how the Westboro baptist church can use the bible to justify their behaviour.

    We all have an animal instinct, I believe this is true. Murder, rape, killing for fun etc. have been around for ages, though... it's as old as mankind itself. And you're right, you see this in the animal kingdom as well. I guess we must share a common ancestor or something, eh? :D

    Don't you know any atheists in person? Do they hump your leg, rape people, kill and murder people, cut throats to get a better job? Or are they just normal people, like yourself, despite their beliefs that their father was a monkey?

    For other example see: crusades, Spanish Inquisition, witch hunts in countless other countries...
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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