Middle East ......
Comments
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How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October.."The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October.."The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Thank you, sadly the best source seems to be Wikipedia. Two of the others use Hamas' numbers and the other is from May.Halifax2TheMax said:
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e
I don't think either of my questions has been answered to my own satisfaction, and I'm not sure they truly can be answered but I believe they are extremely relevant to this conversation."The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
Why do you doubt the Ministry of Health numbers? What would your own satisfaction consist of? Bodies lined up in neat rows with 3 independent outside organizations counting and comparing notes?DarthMaeglin said:
Thank you, sadly the best source seems to be Wikipedia. Two of the others use Hamas' numbers and the other is from May.Halifax2TheMax said:
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e
I don't think either of my questions has been answered to my own satisfaction, and I'm not sure they truly can be answered but I believe they are extremely relevant to this conversation.
I’d fathom it’s much higher than we know or realize based on the widespread flattening of buildings.
And the Wikipedia citation cites the UN’s Office of Humanitarian Affairs.Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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I've read enough of your posts to know you're smart and informed, so surely you must be aware that the Ministry of Health that you trust is part of the Hamas government. A government who has openly stated they want as many civilian casualties of their own citizens to achieve their so-called political goals. That is why I can't trust that organization's numbers.Halifax2TheMax said:
Why do you doubt the Ministry of Health numbers? What would your own satisfaction consist of? Bodies lined up in neat rows with 3 independent outside organizations counting and comparing notes?DarthMaeglin said:
Thank you, sadly the best source seems to be Wikipedia. Two of the others use Hamas' numbers and the other is from May.Halifax2TheMax said:
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e
I don't think either of my questions has been answered to my own satisfaction, and I'm not sure they truly can be answered but I believe they are extremely relevant to this conversation.
I’d fathom it’s much higher than we know or realize based on the widespread flattening of buildings.
And the Wikipedia citation cites the UN’s Office of Humanitarian Affairs.
I honestly don't know what would completely satisfy me on this because no war ever yields a definitive body count, and I'm not going to guess at the actual body count.
As I said earlier this is far from cut-and-dried, despite efforts on both sides to make it so."The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
Do you hold the Israeli government to the same standard? Or do you just “trust” them, because?DarthMaeglin said:
I've read enough of your posts to know you're smart and informed, so surely you must be aware that the Ministry of Health that you trust is part of the Hamas government. A government who has openly stated they want as many civilian casualties of their own citizens to achieve their so-called political goals. That is why I can't trust that organization's numbers.Halifax2TheMax said:
Why do you doubt the Ministry of Health numbers? What would your own satisfaction consist of? Bodies lined up in neat rows with 3 independent outside organizations counting and comparing notes?DarthMaeglin said:
Thank you, sadly the best source seems to be Wikipedia. Two of the others use Hamas' numbers and the other is from May.Halifax2TheMax said:
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e
I don't think either of my questions has been answered to my own satisfaction, and I'm not sure they truly can be answered but I believe they are extremely relevant to this conversation.
I’d fathom it’s much higher than we know or realize based on the widespread flattening of buildings.
And the Wikipedia citation cites the UN’s Office of Humanitarian Affairs.
I honestly don't know what would completely satisfy me on this because no war ever yields a definitive body count, and I'm not going to guess at the actual body count.
As I said earlier this is far from cut-and-dried, despite efforts on both sides to make it so.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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I’ve stated several times in at least a couple threads that, yes, the Israeli government and military absolutely do have many serious questions to answer about their own actions. But so does Hamas, and as the instigators of this latest violence I personally start with them (there was a [fragile] ceasefire in place on October 6. It’s an inconvenient fact to some but it’s a fact.).Halifax2TheMax said:
Do you hold the Israeli government to the same standard? Or do you just “trust” them, because?DarthMaeglin said:
I've read enough of your posts to know you're smart and informed, so surely you must be aware that the Ministry of Health that you trust is part of the Hamas government. A government who has openly stated they want as many civilian casualties of their own citizens to achieve their so-called political goals. That is why I can't trust that organization's numbers.Halifax2TheMax said:
Why do you doubt the Ministry of Health numbers? What would your own satisfaction consist of? Bodies lined up in neat rows with 3 independent outside organizations counting and comparing notes?DarthMaeglin said:
Thank you, sadly the best source seems to be Wikipedia. Two of the others use Hamas' numbers and the other is from May.Halifax2TheMax said:
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e
I don't think either of my questions has been answered to my own satisfaction, and I'm not sure they truly can be answered but I believe they are extremely relevant to this conversation.
I’d fathom it’s much higher than we know or realize based on the widespread flattening of buildings.
And the Wikipedia citation cites the UN’s Office of Humanitarian Affairs.
I honestly don't know what would completely satisfy me on this because no war ever yields a definitive body count, and I'm not going to guess at the actual body count.
As I said earlier this is far from cut-and-dried, despite efforts on both sides to make it so.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
I do have to admit I’m more likely to trust my democratic ally in ways I won’t trust a government that my Canadian government has designated a terrorist organization. You do have me there.Halifax2TheMax said:
Do you hold the Israeli government to the same standard? Or do you just “trust” them, because?DarthMaeglin said:
I've read enough of your posts to know you're smart and informed, so surely you must be aware that the Ministry of Health that you trust is part of the Hamas government. A government who has openly stated they want as many civilian casualties of their own citizens to achieve their so-called political goals. That is why I can't trust that organization's numbers.Halifax2TheMax said:
Why do you doubt the Ministry of Health numbers? What would your own satisfaction consist of? Bodies lined up in neat rows with 3 independent outside organizations counting and comparing notes?DarthMaeglin said:
Thank you, sadly the best source seems to be Wikipedia. Two of the others use Hamas' numbers and the other is from May.Halifax2TheMax said:
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e
I don't think either of my questions has been answered to my own satisfaction, and I'm not sure they truly can be answered but I believe they are extremely relevant to this conversation.
I’d fathom it’s much higher than we know or realize based on the widespread flattening of buildings.
And the Wikipedia citation cites the UN’s Office of Humanitarian Affairs.
I honestly don't know what would completely satisfy me on this because no war ever yields a definitive body count, and I'm not going to guess at the actual body count.
As I said earlier this is far from cut-and-dried, despite efforts on both sides to make it so."The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
So explain Israeli actions in the West Bank pre/post 10/6.DarthMaeglin said:
I’ve stated several times in at least a couple threads that, yes, the Israeli government and military absolutely do have many serious questions to answer about their own actions. But so does Hamas, and as the instigators of this latest violence I personally start with them (there was a [fragile] ceasefire in place on October 6. It’s an inconvenient fact to some but it’s a fact.).Halifax2TheMax said:
Do you hold the Israeli government to the same standard? Or do you just “trust” them, because?DarthMaeglin said:
I've read enough of your posts to know you're smart and informed, so surely you must be aware that the Ministry of Health that you trust is part of the Hamas government. A government who has openly stated they want as many civilian casualties of their own citizens to achieve their so-called political goals. That is why I can't trust that organization's numbers.Halifax2TheMax said:
Why do you doubt the Ministry of Health numbers? What would your own satisfaction consist of? Bodies lined up in neat rows with 3 independent outside organizations counting and comparing notes?DarthMaeglin said:
Thank you, sadly the best source seems to be Wikipedia. Two of the others use Hamas' numbers and the other is from May.Halifax2TheMax said:
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e
I don't think either of my questions has been answered to my own satisfaction, and I'm not sure they truly can be answered but I believe they are extremely relevant to this conversation.
I’d fathom it’s much higher than we know or realize based on the widespread flattening of buildings.
And the Wikipedia citation cites the UN’s Office of Humanitarian Affairs.
I honestly don't know what would completely satisfy me on this because no war ever yields a definitive body count, and I'm not going to guess at the actual body count.
As I said earlier this is far from cut-and-dried, despite efforts on both sides to make it so.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Seems you may have difficulty discerning terrorism, one state sponsored and one not.DarthMaeglin said:
I do have to admit I’m more likely to trust my democratic ally in ways I won’t trust a government that my Canadian government has designated a terrorist organization. You do have me there.Halifax2TheMax said:
Do you hold the Israeli government to the same standard? Or do you just “trust” them, because?DarthMaeglin said:
I've read enough of your posts to know you're smart and informed, so surely you must be aware that the Ministry of Health that you trust is part of the Hamas government. A government who has openly stated they want as many civilian casualties of their own citizens to achieve their so-called political goals. That is why I can't trust that organization's numbers.Halifax2TheMax said:
Why do you doubt the Ministry of Health numbers? What would your own satisfaction consist of? Bodies lined up in neat rows with 3 independent outside organizations counting and comparing notes?DarthMaeglin said:
Thank you, sadly the best source seems to be Wikipedia. Two of the others use Hamas' numbers and the other is from May.Halifax2TheMax said:
Take your pick.DarthMaeglin said:
Those are the numbers Hamas has released, correct? Personally I need those numbers independently verified before I can accept them. If those aren’t numbers from Hamas I would genuinely be interested in your source.Halifax2TheMax said:
27,180 were women and children, if you believe the reporting that 2/3 were such, leaving 14,002 Hamas combatants.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of the 41,000 were combatants? Hamas makes no distinction.HughFreakingDillon said:
I'm sure the families are understanding of your little asterisk.DarthMaeglin said:
How many of those were Hamas deliberately hiding behind? This is far from cut-and-dried.23scidoo said:At least 41.182 Palestinians has killed since 7 October..
Where does the doctor who was holding Israelis for Hamas fall in their count?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-death-toll-hamas-war-israel-40000-32a79e03c8eb62669412dab23d03219e
I don't think either of my questions has been answered to my own satisfaction, and I'm not sure they truly can be answered but I believe they are extremely relevant to this conversation.
I’d fathom it’s much higher than we know or realize based on the widespread flattening of buildings.
And the Wikipedia citation cites the UN’s Office of Humanitarian Affairs.
I honestly don't know what would completely satisfy me on this because no war ever yields a definitive body count, and I'm not going to guess at the actual body count.
As I said earlier this is far from cut-and-dried, despite efforts on both sides to make it so.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Oh the history of the Israeli ceasefire and how they never violate it or create provocations, eh? Just innocents minding their own business, treating Palestinians as equals in the only democracy in the Middle East, right?09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Beheaded and raped babies.Halifax2TheMax said:Oh the history of the Israeli ceasefire and how they never violate it or create provocations, eh? Just innocents minding their own business, treating Palestinians as equals in the only democracy in the Middle East, right?"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
Link?DarthMaeglin said:
Beheaded and raped babies.Halifax2TheMax said:Oh the history of the Israeli ceasefire and how they never violate it or create provocations, eh? Just innocents minding their own business, treating Palestinians as equals in the only democracy in the Middle East, right?09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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If the pager and walkie-talkie attacks turn out to have been carried out by Israel then from where I sit comfortably I can't call it anything but a war crime due to the indiscriminate nature of the attack. I'm going to guess the 9 year old girl who died just happened to be holding daddy's pager when it exploded.
"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220 -
Has the pager thing been confirmed yet?0
-
As far as I know it's nowhere near confirmed who the perpetrators are but Israel is the most obvious suspect. I don't discount the possibility of some sort of false flag operation however, but I don't see it as likely. This was one helluva sophisticated operation.tempo_n_groove said:Has the pager thing been confirmed yet?"The world is full of idiots and I am but one of them."
10-30-1991 Toronto, Toronto 1 & 2 2016, Toronto 20220
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