The all-purpose heavy duty Climate Chaos thread (sprinkled with hope).

Lerxst1992 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Lerxst1992 said:

I live in poop!

Ha!  Mind you I'm speaking from a traveling aspect.  Montauk is great when no people are there.  

I'm fed up w the traffic and amount of people on LI.  I live 30 minutes from lots of things and don't need to travel east until fall and spring when it's less crowded.  I know you understand, lol!!!

I'm in Long Beach.

I’m in Huntington and many around the US don’t get how confining  it is living on LI, outside the beautiful beaches on both the south and north shores. 

Despite plenty of areas having poor traffic like socal or maybe NC, the island is unique. We need to battle thru the biggest city, two rivers/bridges, to go anywhere. The ocean, sound and bays are gorgeous, especially Montauk, but getting to Camden or Ottawa is a toxic battle to get thru the biggest city by far in US /Canada. How about the trains? Due to construction, haven’t had reliable weekend service in five years. Thanks for that honesty, cuomo!

Cropduster-80 said:

the lights stayed on…”The storm uprooted trees and tore shingles from roofs, but other than that Grande said there is no major damage. Its residents say Babcock Ranch is proof that an eco-conscious and solar-powered town can withstand the wrath of a near-Category 5 storm.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/solar-babcock-ranch-florida-hurricane-ian-climate/index.html

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

the lights stayed on…”The storm uprooted trees and tore shingles from roofs, but other than that Grande said there is no major damage. Its residents say Babcock Ranch is proof that an eco-conscious and solar-powered town can withstand the wrath of a near-Category 5 storm.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/solar-babcock-ranch-florida-hurricane-ian-climate/index.html

That is quiet amazing! 

But let's look at the big picture here.  Babcock Ranch is planned community with a population of about 50,000.  It great what they have done and in the right place, building others communities would not be a bad idea, but when you look at the size of that power grid (photo in the article), it's obvious that this would not work for a moderate to large sized cities and metropolitan areas.  Far too much land, infrastructure, and resources would be required.  The ratio of resources and energy needed to create enough power would not be sufficient to be of logical use for  large populated areas.
On the other had, if more buildings and parking lots were covered with solar panels, a lot of relief from existing power grids would be helpful. 
Bottom line, the fact remains that solar panels can never provide power for our existing large population numbers.  But, yes, they can help.

Is this solar panel large enough to do the trick?

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

the lights stayed on…”The storm uprooted trees and tore shingles from roofs, but other than that Grande said there is no major damage. Its residents say Babcock Ranch is proof that an eco-conscious and solar-powered town can withstand the wrath of a near-Category 5 storm.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/solar-babcock-ranch-florida-hurricane-ian-climate/index.html

That is quiet amazing! 

But let's look at the big picture here.  Babcock Ranch is planned community with a population of about 50,000.  It great what they have done and in the right place, building others communities would not be a bad idea, but when you look at the size of that power grid (photo in the article), it's obvious that this would not work for a moderate to large sized cities and metropolitan areas.  Far too much land, infrastructure, and resources would be required.  The ratio of resources and energy needed to create enough power would not be sufficient to be of logical use for  large populated areas.
On the other had, if more buildings and parking lots were covered with solar panels, a lot of relief from existing power grids would be helpful. 
Bottom line, the fact remains that solar panels can never provide power for our existing large population numbers.  But, yes, they can help.

They can do the same thing with panels on their own houses

That city is fed by a solar farm but it doesn’t have to be. Some have additional solar and batteries on their houses.

a lot of the year I can switch off my power at the alley if I want and do just fine. If I had more panels and more batteries I wouldn’t need a grid attachment at all however my roof shape isn’t ideal for more. If my house had been designed that way though it would be easy.

 However you have to be grid connected by law in the city even if you don’t need to be or want to be. It’s a good hedge against cloudy days though as a backup as batteries only last so long 

most suburbs especially around here are planned communities just not eco planned. Designing streets to flood, proper tree and vegetation to absorb water all helps. I do not live in the suburbs but that’s probably the easiest place to start.

most single family homes could 100percent self power utilising just their own roof. Batteries tend to be more cost prohibitive than panels though so most just net meter not self power 

the cost of solar/batteries is absolutely not cost prohibitive if it’s already on a house at whatever price point you are buying in assuming you aren’t then paying an some sort of unrelated premium. solar is expensive because it’s an add on after the fact 99 percent of the time and it’s separate from your mortgage. Your extra mortgage cost monthly because of solar infrastructure would be less than what you would be paying for electricity anyway.  The numbers are at a point where it works.

Speaking of mortgages, there's an idea I heard (I think they do this in Davis, Calif, maybe?) where adding solar gets tied in to the property taxes.  If a new home owner of an existing home that does not have solar only expects to live in the house for only 5 years, they are not going to want to invest in solar.  But if the payments are attached to property taxes such that when they move they only pay for the years they use it, they might be much more open to adding solar.  I would certainly sign up for that, but few places offer that option-- sorry to say, not here.

Also, I believe all newly constructed homes in CA are required to have solar. Other states do the same, perhaps?

I think ca is the exception and it is a great model I think to require new builds to have solar.  If other states do it it’s probably not as aggressive as CA

as far as property taxes some states (even Texas) has an exception where the value of the panels/batteries etc are not added to your appraised home value.  It makes your house worth more but you don’t pay for that added value like you would if you built a deck or added on and built another bedroom 

Another common barrier is people think HOA’s can prevent panels due to neighbourhood restrictions. Usually they can’t.  Even conservative states like Wyoming and Texas have laws that say you can put up solar panels even if your HOA says you can’t 

solar has compounding benefits. Once you see you can self power even partially then you start paying attention to electricity consumption and you then buy energy efficient appliances and things.  Usually a solar household pays way more attention to usage than a non solar house. They can still use the grid so it’s not like they are only paying attention to what they use so they don’t run out of power 

no matter how you fund it, all you are doing in effect is pre paying your electricity bill and it’s an excellent long term hedge on inflation as energy rates aren’t going down. I’ve got neighbours who spend just as much on whole house natural gas standby generators that are tied into the home. Thats crazy.  That’s a sunk cost, it doesn’t pay for itself over time, when you do need it you pay for the gas and that’s not cheap when you are powering an entire house with natural gas, and it’s burning fossil fuels 

A whole house generator sounds like a huge expense for something most would only need once in a long while.  We have a little Honda generator for when the power goes out.  It runs the fridge, thus saving our food, plus powers a couple of low wattage lamps, and enough left over to recharge phones.  That's enough to get by on.  Only problem is being on a well, so no running water.  But we keep several heavy duty PBA-free 2 gallon containers full and if we know the power is going to go out, we  fill buckets for flushing. 

We had something like 27 power interruptions last year. This year has been a lot better. That said around here people do whole home generator’s pretty frequently which are automatic 

im constantly trying to talk them out of it. Get a powerwall and panels instead 

replacing everything in your fridge 3 times a year adds up when you aren’t home 

coincidently the gas company sells them. They also own the power line infrastructure. Interesting 

27 times!  Ouch!
Never heard of a power wall.  What's that?

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

the lights stayed on…”The storm uprooted trees and tore shingles from roofs, but other than that Grande said there is no major damage. Its residents say Babcock Ranch is proof that an eco-conscious and solar-powered town can withstand the wrath of a near-Category 5 storm.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/solar-babcock-ranch-florida-hurricane-ian-climate/index.html

That is quiet amazing! 

But let's look at the big picture here.  Babcock Ranch is planned community with a population of about 50,000.  It great what they have done and in the right place, building others communities would not be a bad idea, but when you look at the size of that power grid (photo in the article), it's obvious that this would not work for a moderate to large sized cities and metropolitan areas.  Far too much land, infrastructure, and resources would be required.  The ratio of resources and energy needed to create enough power would not be sufficient to be of logical use for  large populated areas.
On the other had, if more buildings and parking lots were covered with solar panels, a lot of relief from existing power grids would be helpful. 
Bottom line, the fact remains that solar panels can never provide power for our existing large population numbers.  But, yes, they can help.

They can do the same thing with panels on their own houses

That city is fed by a solar farm but it doesn’t have to be. Some have additional solar and batteries on their houses.

a lot of the year I can switch off my power at the alley if I want and do just fine. If I had more panels and more batteries I wouldn’t need a grid attachment at all however my roof shape isn’t ideal for more. If my house had been designed that way though it would be easy.

 However you have to be grid connected by law in the city even if you don’t need to be or want to be. It’s a good hedge against cloudy days though as a backup as batteries only last so long 

most suburbs especially around here are planned communities just not eco planned. Designing streets to flood, proper tree and vegetation to absorb water all helps. I do not live in the suburbs but that’s probably the easiest place to start.

most single family homes could 100percent self power utilising just their own roof. Batteries tend to be more cost prohibitive than panels though so most just net meter not self power 

the cost of solar/batteries is absolutely not cost prohibitive if it’s already on a house at whatever price point you are buying in assuming you aren’t then paying an some sort of unrelated premium. solar is expensive because it’s an add on after the fact 99 percent of the time and it’s separate from your mortgage. Your extra mortgage cost monthly because of solar infrastructure would be less than what you would be paying for electricity anyway.  The numbers are at a point where it works.

Speaking of mortgages, there's an idea I heard (I think they do this in Davis, Calif, maybe?) where adding solar gets tied in to the property taxes.  If a new home owner of an existing home that does not have solar only expects to live in the house for only 5 years, they are not going to want to invest in solar.  But if the payments are attached to property taxes such that when they move they only pay for the years they use it, they might be much more open to adding solar.  I would certainly sign up for that, but few places offer that option-- sorry to say, not here.

Also, I believe all newly constructed homes in CA are required to have solar. Other states do the same, perhaps?

I think ca is the exception and it is a great model I think to require new builds to have solar.  If other states do it it’s probably not as aggressive as CA

as far as property taxes some states (even Texas) has an exception where the value of the panels/batteries etc are not added to your appraised home value.  It makes your house worth more but you don’t pay for that added value like you would if you built a deck or added on and built another bedroom 

Another common barrier is people think HOA’s can prevent panels due to neighbourhood restrictions. Usually they can’t.  Even conservative states like Wyoming and Texas have laws that say you can put up solar panels even if your HOA says you can’t 

solar has compounding benefits. Once you see you can self power even partially then you start paying attention to electricity consumption and you then buy energy efficient appliances and things.  Usually a solar household pays way more attention to usage than a non solar house. They can still use the grid so it’s not like they are only paying attention to what they use so they don’t run out of power 

no matter how you fund it, all you are doing in effect is pre paying your electricity bill and it’s an excellent long term hedge on inflation as energy rates aren’t going down. I’ve got neighbours who spend just as much on whole house natural gas standby generators that are tied into the home. Thats crazy.  That’s a sunk cost, it doesn’t pay for itself over time, when you do need it you pay for the gas and that’s not cheap when you are powering an entire house with natural gas, and it’s burning fossil fuels 

A whole house generator sounds like a huge expense for something most would only need once in a long while.  We have a little Honda generator for when the power goes out.  It runs the fridge, thus saving our food, plus powers a couple of low wattage lamps, and enough left over to recharge phones.  That's enough to get by on.  Only problem is being on a well, so no running water.  But we keep several heavy duty PBA-free 2 gallon containers full and if we know the power is going to go out, we  fill buckets for flushing. 

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

the lights stayed on…”The storm uprooted trees and tore shingles from roofs, but other than that Grande said there is no major damage. Its residents say Babcock Ranch is proof that an eco-conscious and solar-powered town can withstand the wrath of a near-Category 5 storm.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/solar-babcock-ranch-florida-hurricane-ian-climate/index.html

That is quiet amazing! 

But let's look at the big picture here.  Babcock Ranch is planned community with a population of about 50,000.  It great what they have done and in the right place, building others communities would not be a bad idea, but when you look at the size of that power grid (photo in the article), it's obvious that this would not work for a moderate to large sized cities and metropolitan areas.  Far too much land, infrastructure, and resources would be required.  The ratio of resources and energy needed to create enough power would not be sufficient to be of logical use for  large populated areas.
On the other had, if more buildings and parking lots were covered with solar panels, a lot of relief from existing power grids would be helpful. 
Bottom line, the fact remains that solar panels can never provide power for our existing large population numbers.  But, yes, they can help.

They can do the same thing with panels on their own houses

That city is fed by a solar farm but it doesn’t have to be. Some have additional solar and batteries on their houses.

a lot of the year I can switch off my power at the alley if I want and do just fine. If I had more panels and more batteries I wouldn’t need a grid attachment at all however my roof shape isn’t ideal for more. If my house had been designed that way though it would be easy.

 However you have to be grid connected by law in the city even if you don’t need to be or want to be. It’s a good hedge against cloudy days though as a backup as batteries only last so long 

most suburbs especially around here are planned communities just not eco planned. Designing streets to flood, proper tree and vegetation to absorb water all helps. I do not live in the suburbs but that’s probably the easiest place to start.

most single family homes could 100percent self power utilising just their own roof. Batteries tend to be more cost prohibitive than panels though so most just net meter not self power 

the cost of solar/batteries is absolutely not cost prohibitive if it’s already on a house at whatever price point you are buying in assuming you aren’t then paying an some sort of unrelated premium. solar is expensive because it’s an add on after the fact 99 percent of the time and it’s separate from your mortgage. Your extra mortgage cost monthly because of solar infrastructure would be less than what you would be paying for electricity anyway.  The numbers are at a point where it works.

Speaking of mortgages, there's an idea I heard (I think they do this in Davis, Calif, maybe?) where adding solar gets tied in to the property taxes.  If a new home owner of an existing home that does not have solar only expects to live in the house for only 5 years, they are not going to want to invest in solar.  But if the payments are attached to property taxes such that when they move they only pay for the years they use it, they might be much more open to adding solar.  I would certainly sign up for that, but few places offer that option-- sorry to say, not here.

Also, I believe all newly constructed homes in CA are required to have solar. Other states do the same, perhaps?

I think ca is the exception and it is a great model I think to require new builds to have solar.  If other states do it it’s probably not as aggressive as CA

as far as property taxes some states (even Texas) has an exception where the value of the panels/batteries etc are not added to your appraised home value.  It makes your house worth more but you don’t pay for that added value like you would if you built a deck or added on and built another bedroom 

Another common barrier is people think HOA’s can prevent panels due to neighbourhood restrictions. Usually they can’t.  Even conservative states like Wyoming and Texas have laws that say you can put up solar panels even if your HOA says you can’t 

solar has compounding benefits. Once you see you can self power even partially then you start paying attention to electricity consumption and you then buy energy efficient appliances and things.  Usually a solar household pays way more attention to usage than a non solar house. They can still use the grid so it’s not like they are only paying attention to what they use so they don’t run out of power 

no matter how you fund it, all you are doing in effect is pre paying your electricity bill and it’s an excellent long term hedge on inflation as energy rates aren’t going down. I’ve got neighbours who spend just as much on whole house natural gas standby generators that are tied into the home. Thats crazy.  That’s a sunk cost, it doesn’t pay for itself over time, when you do need it you pay for the gas and that’s not cheap when you are powering an entire house with natural gas, and it’s burning fossil fuels 

A whole house generator sounds like a huge expense for something most would only need once in a long while.  We have a little Honda generator for when the power goes out.  It runs the fridge, thus saving our food, plus powers a couple of low wattage lamps, and enough left over to recharge phones.  That's enough to get by on.  Only problem is being on a well, so no running water.  But we keep several heavy duty PBA-free 2 gallon containers full and if we know the power is going to go out, we  fill buckets for flushing. 

You run on a well?  You sir have mineral rights then.  That is rare in Cali.

Cropduster-80 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

brianlux said:

Cropduster-80 said:

the lights stayed on…”The storm uprooted trees and tore shingles from roofs, but other than that Grande said there is no major damage. Its residents say Babcock Ranch is proof that an eco-conscious and solar-powered town can withstand the wrath of a near-Category 5 storm.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/solar-babcock-ranch-florida-hurricane-ian-climate/index.html

That is quiet amazing! 

But let's look at the big picture here.  Babcock Ranch is planned community with a population of about 50,000.  It great what they have done and in the right place, building others communities would not be a bad idea, but when you look at the size of that power grid (photo in the article), it's obvious that this would not work for a moderate to large sized cities and metropolitan areas.  Far too much land, infrastructure, and resources would be required.  The ratio of resources and energy needed to create enough power would not be sufficient to be of logical use for  large populated areas.
On the other had, if more buildings and parking lots were covered with solar panels, a lot of relief from existing power grids would be helpful. 
Bottom line, the fact remains that solar panels can never provide power for our existing large population numbers.  But, yes, they can help.

They can do the same thing with panels on their own houses

That city is fed by a solar farm but it doesn’t have to be. Some have additional solar and batteries on their houses.

a lot of the year I can switch off my power at the alley if I want and do just fine. If I had more panels and more batteries I wouldn’t need a grid attachment at all however my roof shape isn’t ideal for more. If my house had been designed that way though it would be easy.

 However you have to be grid connected by law in the city even if you don’t need to be or want to be. It’s a good hedge against cloudy days though as a backup as batteries only last so long 

most suburbs especially around here are planned communities just not eco planned. Designing streets to flood, proper tree and vegetation to absorb water all helps. I do not live in the suburbs but that’s probably the easiest place to start.

most single family homes could 100percent self power utilising just their own roof. Batteries tend to be more cost prohibitive than panels though so most just net meter not self power 

the cost of solar/batteries is absolutely not cost prohibitive if it’s already on a house at whatever price point you are buying in assuming you aren’t then paying an some sort of unrelated premium. solar is expensive because it’s an add on after the fact 99 percent of the time and it’s separate from your mortgage. Your extra mortgage cost monthly because of solar infrastructure would be less than what you would be paying for electricity anyway.  The numbers are at a point where it works.

Speaking of mortgages, there's an idea I heard (I think they do this in Davis, Calif, maybe?) where adding solar gets tied in to the property taxes.  If a new home owner of an existing home that does not have solar only expects to live in the house for only 5 years, they are not going to want to invest in solar.  But if the payments are attached to property taxes such that when they move they only pay for the years they use it, they might be much more open to adding solar.  I would certainly sign up for that, but few places offer that option-- sorry to say, not here.

Also, I believe all newly constructed homes in CA are required to have solar. Other states do the same, perhaps?

I think ca is the exception and it is a great model I think to require new builds to have solar.  If other states do it it’s probably not as aggressive as CA

as far as property taxes some states (even Texas) has an exception where the value of the panels/batteries etc are not added to your appraised home value.  It makes your house worth more but you don’t pay for that added value like you would if you built a deck or added on and built another bedroom 

Another common barrier is people think HOA’s can prevent panels due to neighbourhood restrictions. Usually they can’t.  Even conservative states like Wyoming and Texas have laws that say you can put up solar panels even if your HOA says you can’t 

solar has compounding benefits. Once you see you can self power even partially then you start paying attention to electricity consumption and you then buy energy efficient appliances and things.  Usually a solar household pays way more attention to usage than a non solar house. They can still use the grid so it’s not like they are only paying attention to what they use so they don’t run out of power 

no matter how you fund it, all you are doing in effect is pre paying your electricity bill and it’s an excellent long term hedge on inflation as energy rates aren’t going down. I’ve got neighbours who spend just as much on whole house natural gas standby generators that are tied into the home. Thats crazy.  That’s a sunk cost, it doesn’t pay for itself over time, when you do need it you pay for the gas and that’s not cheap when you are powering an entire house with natural gas, and it’s burning fossil fuels 

A whole house generator sounds like a huge expense for something most would only need once in a long while.  We have a little Honda generator for when the power goes out.  It runs the fridge, thus saving our food, plus powers a couple of low wattage lamps, and enough left over to recharge phones.  That's enough to get by on.  Only problem is being on a well, so no running water.  But we keep several heavy duty PBA-free 2 gallon containers full and if we know the power is going to go out, we  fill buckets for flushing. 

We had something like 27 power interruptions last year. This year has been a lot better. That said around here people do whole home generator’s pretty frequently which are automatic 

im constantly trying to talk them out of it. Get a powerwall and panels instead 

replacing everything in your fridge 3 times a year adds up when you aren’t home 

coincidently the gas company sells them. They also own the power line infrastructure. Interesting 

27 times!  Ouch!
Never heard of a power wall.  What's that?

A battery.

you need a battery or batteries to actually use solar at all. It’s the brains of a setup.  You need something to direct where the power goes… to your house, to the grid, to the battery. That’s all part of the battery infrastructure 

without it you just net meter.  If you have solar only and the power goes out, your power goes out too. 

Solar only is basically a way to offset power usage (ie you use 30kwh a day and sell back 40Kwh of solar production) . Batteries on the other hand are a way to self power.  So you directly use all the solar coming from your roof in real time to power your house and excess then goes into the battery and any further excess goes back to the grid.  When the sun goes down it happens in reverse. You pull from your battery and any excess you need comes from the grid.

both options are good as in “environmentally friendly”, but only one solves a power outage issue.  With net metering you might not be using your green production but someone else is. 

In effect a battery is an on site “grid”

You can't do this legally in NY.  You can have solar and batteries off grid or have solar and on grid.  The power companies won't let you do both out here.

You are still grid connected in both situations 

in Houston you have to have your house “connected to the grid” to be legal. Then you need an interconnection agreement with the power company. Either way 

how the power flows to the grid shouldn’t really matter as it’s fundamentally the same thing as the battery doesn’t have anything to do with feeding the grid with electricity. That’s odd 


New York solar installers are offering battery “home backup” on their websites. As in a backup to their grid connection , not an off grid only situation.