SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States)

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Comments

  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    That’s a shame.

    Also, some people like to pray in a synagogue or mosque in addition to by themselves. Or prefer the comfort of their fellow parishioners. None of my business. 

    Personally I’ve always believed that if you’re the praying type (I am not but have definitely wished to something greater than myself — life?), the whole world is your church.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,600
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,094
    edited June 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Post edited by Lerxst1992 on
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,072
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.
    Yeah If that is true, this is shouldn't be about his right to pray it should be about the kids right to pray or not pray.  Personally, I always see these as very slippery slopes.  But that's mostly cause I think organized religion is a piece of shit....because, you know, it's history shows it's a piece of shit.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?
    There is an article somewhere by someone who knows the guy. 

    it appears it was done as a provocation not just a simple act of prayer.  It grew over years etc 

    when it becomes this, it crosses the line.  A simple prayer becoming an organised prayer group.  To some extent private speech becomes school (ie state) speech when it’s an employee of a school organising  students of the school to pray on school property after school sponsored games.  

    It’s no longer one guy independently saying a private prayer, to himself.  I do think it’s fair to say, him praying isn’t wrong. It’s not. When it becomes an organised activity, it is 


    if you look what do you see? They are gathered around him, like he is a religious figure. He’s also their coach.  The body language shows a great deal of organisation as to who is leading the followers.  As a coach he has a great deal of influence in shaping their religion too. A coach can absolutely influence your athletic development so it’s fair to say they can influence your spirituality too
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 1,390
    It’s a good thing they’re breaking for summer recess otherwise by Christmas it would be illegal to be a democrat. 

    everything related to religion on grounds supported by public funds should end….starting with “one nation under God”. 

    Anyone who is able to transport individuals who have difficulty voting should consider this during midterms.  
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,936
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,072
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    I really wish people would throw stuff back in their faces.  I'd do it but it's disingenuous as I am not a muslim.  But why don't people do it?  Muslims should be praying all over the fields....people in open carry states should get guns and walk around wherever it is legal and as close to politicians, judges, etc as possible (all within the law and no intention of using the firearm of course).  But why not throw their bullshit right back in their face and maybe even make them a little scared?

    Man - I wish I could get myself to get a gun...I just can't.  Which is why I guess people don't do this stuff ;) 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,936
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    I really wish people would throw stuff back in their faces.  I'd do it but it's disingenuous as I am not a muslim.  But why don't people do it?  Muslims should be praying all over the fields....people in open carry states should get guns and walk around wherever it is legal and as close to politicians, judges, etc as possible (all within the law and no intention of using the firearm of course).  But why not throw their bullshit right back in their face and maybe even make them a little scared?

    Man - I wish I could get myself to get a gun...I just can't.  Which is why I guess people don't do this stuff ;) 
    I hear you.

    I agree though that there should be a show of force with open carry. Put the stress on the police and maybe they will finally be vocal about how open carry is insane and prevents them from doing their jobs.  


    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    I really wish people would throw stuff back in their faces.  I'd do it but it's disingenuous as I am not a muslim.  But why don't people do it?  Muslims should be praying all over the fields....people in open carry states should get guns and walk around wherever it is legal and as close to politicians, judges, etc as possible (all within the law and no intention of using the firearm of course).  But why not throw their bullshit right back in their face and maybe even make them a little scared?

    Man - I wish I could get myself to get a gun...I just can't.  Which is why I guess people don't do this stuff ;) 
    I hear you.

    I agree though that there should be a show of force with open carry. Put the stress on the police and maybe they will finally be vocal about how open carry is insane and prevents them from doing their jobs.  


    The police tend to be against open carry/ no permits etc.  They were vocally opposed to the permit less carry in Texas 

    we did get some anti gun sentiment though when the black panthers started carrying rifles around (was that the 70’s?)

    if the wrong people carry, I agree that freaks out the right. When it’s these militia types they are fine with it 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,847
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    NASCAR isn’t a public entity though.  Nor is a private school where prayer is 100 percent fine. It’s different 

    if I wanted to say grace before lunch at school as a teacher in a public school,  totally acceptable.  If I decided to lead the cafeteria in grace before lunch that’s different. Your speech being for your benefit vs your speech being directed at everyone present.  It becomes praying at people, not praying to god. God can hear you and doesn’t require a crowd.  If I want to eat lunch in the designated eating place I can’t leave. 

    At the end of the day, there should be a line. What that line is, that’s a great debate.  However many evangelicals and this court seem to feel there should be no line. As long as it’s Christian prayer 

    plus this teacher is on the clock, being paid with my tax dollars to pray in a religion I don’t agree with to everyone in earshot.  It’s not like these people are showing up to do this on their day off, when the kids are not a captive audience 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,936
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    The job of the school is to teach...not pray. There are way too many religions to appease everyone.

    Not only do we expect teachers to teach...now we suggest they should be experts in weaponry and religion?  Insanity.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,847
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    NASCAR isn’t a public entity though.  Nor is a private school where prayer is 100 percent fine. It’s different 

    if I wanted to say grace before lunch at school as a teacher in a public school,  totally acceptable.  If I decided to lead the cafeteria in grace before lunch that’s different. Your speech being for your benefit vs your speech being directed at everyone present.  It becomes praying at people, not praying to god. God can hear you and doesn’t require a crowd.  If I want to eat lunch in the designated eating place I can’t leave. 

    At the end of the day, there should be a line. What that line is, that’s a great debate.  However many evangelicals and this court seem to feel there should be no line. As long as it’s Christian prayer 
    NASCAR wanting to be all inclusive nowadays makes it all the more interesting, private or not.

    Your take is basically what I said to.  When it's a group thing is where it gets complicated.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,936
    When I was in elementary school (probably 1977-78) we had religious education classes in our school. I don't remember exactly what we talked about but I do remember that all of a sudden they stopped.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    NASCAR isn’t a public entity though.  Nor is a private school where prayer is 100 percent fine. It’s different 

    if I wanted to say grace before lunch at school as a teacher in a public school,  totally acceptable.  If I decided to lead the cafeteria in grace before lunch that’s different. Your speech being for your benefit vs your speech being directed at everyone present.  It becomes praying at people, not praying to god. God can hear you and doesn’t require a crowd.  If I want to eat lunch in the designated eating place I can’t leave. 

    At the end of the day, there should be a line. What that line is, that’s a great debate.  However many evangelicals and this court seem to feel there should be no line. As long as it’s Christian prayer 
    NASCAR wanting to be all inclusive nowadays makes it all the more interesting, private or not.

    Your take is basically what I said to.  When it's a group thing is where it gets complicated.
    NASCAR is hillarious.  They are doing that as an organisation 

    the fans are pissed 

    I did a double take when they started actively trying to change.  That’s a really interesting example for sure 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,847
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    The job of the school is to teach...not pray. There are way too many religions to appease everyone.

    Not only do we expect teachers to teach...now we suggest they should be experts in weaponry and religion?  Insanity.
    If someone wanted to pray and it didn't bother anyone, let them pray.  I did mention that when it's a group then it would be a problem.

    People should be allowed to do as they want as long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples rights.  This is like the jersey discussion we had in the sports page.  Should you be allowed to wear an opposing jersey and not be harassed?  Absolutely.  Are there jerks in the world?  Absolutely.  Should you engage with the home team when you're wearing a bullseye?  No, that's poking the bear.

    I would expect a lot more of these cases to come about and the conservative/Christian viewpoint will be fairly vocal for the upcoming years.

    This is 3 decisions now in less than a week.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,847
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    NASCAR isn’t a public entity though.  Nor is a private school where prayer is 100 percent fine. It’s different 

    if I wanted to say grace before lunch at school as a teacher in a public school,  totally acceptable.  If I decided to lead the cafeteria in grace before lunch that’s different. Your speech being for your benefit vs your speech being directed at everyone present.  It becomes praying at people, not praying to god. God can hear you and doesn’t require a crowd.  If I want to eat lunch in the designated eating place I can’t leave. 

    At the end of the day, there should be a line. What that line is, that’s a great debate.  However many evangelicals and this court seem to feel there should be no line. As long as it’s Christian prayer 
    NASCAR wanting to be all inclusive nowadays makes it all the more interesting, private or not.

    Your take is basically what I said to.  When it's a group thing is where it gets complicated.
    NASCAR is hillarious.  They are doing that as an organisation 

    the fans are pissed 

    I did a double take when they started actively trying to change.  That’s a really interesting example for sure 
    NASCAR has really changed from the Good ol Boys of old.  The fans might still be like that, I am not, but the people they are rooting for surely are not.  Great example was during the Bubba Wallace incident right after the banning of the confederate flag.  Every driver walked with him in solidarity.

    NASCAR is trying.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom's Posts: 17,936
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    The job of the school is to teach...not pray. There are way too many religions to appease everyone.

    Not only do we expect teachers to teach...now we suggest they should be experts in weaponry and religion?  Insanity.
    If someone wanted to pray and it didn't bother anyone, let them pray.  I did mention that when it's a group then it would be a problem.

    People should be allowed to do as they want as long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples rights.  This is like the jersey discussion we had in the sports page.  Should you be allowed to wear an opposing jersey and not be harassed?  Absolutely.  Are there jerks in the world?  Absolutely.  Should you engage with the home team when you're wearing a bullseye?  No, that's poking the bear.

    I would expect a lot more of these cases to come about and the conservative/Christian viewpoint will be fairly vocal for the upcoming years.

    This is 3 decisions now in less than a week.
    gotcha...yeah I agree with that. I could care less if someone wants to pray on their own without interrupting class or others and there aren't any restrictions on that that I know of.
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
    2020: Oakland, Oakland:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
    2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    NASCAR isn’t a public entity though.  Nor is a private school where prayer is 100 percent fine. It’s different 

    if I wanted to say grace before lunch at school as a teacher in a public school,  totally acceptable.  If I decided to lead the cafeteria in grace before lunch that’s different. Your speech being for your benefit vs your speech being directed at everyone present.  It becomes praying at people, not praying to god. God can hear you and doesn’t require a crowd.  If I want to eat lunch in the designated eating place I can’t leave. 

    At the end of the day, there should be a line. What that line is, that’s a great debate.  However many evangelicals and this court seem to feel there should be no line. As long as it’s Christian prayer 
    NASCAR wanting to be all inclusive nowadays makes it all the more interesting, private or not.

    Your take is basically what I said to.  When it's a group thing is where it gets complicated.
    NASCAR is hillarious.  They are doing that as an organisation 

    the fans are pissed 

    I did a double take when they started actively trying to change.  That’s a really interesting example for sure 
    NASCAR has really changed from the Good ol Boys of old.  The fans might still be like that, I am not, but the people they are rooting for surely are not.  Great example was during the Bubba Wallace incident right after the banning of the confederate flag.  Every driver walked with him in solidarity.

    NASCAR is trying.
    To me nascar has been Lynyrd Skynyrd shirts and confederate flags.  And I like Skynyrd, well their first album anyway.

    I give them a ton of credit.  It’s pretty engrained.  Seems like a normal shift to me, but it was a big deal 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,847
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    NASCAR isn’t a public entity though.  Nor is a private school where prayer is 100 percent fine. It’s different 

    if I wanted to say grace before lunch at school as a teacher in a public school,  totally acceptable.  If I decided to lead the cafeteria in grace before lunch that’s different. Your speech being for your benefit vs your speech being directed at everyone present.  It becomes praying at people, not praying to god. God can hear you and doesn’t require a crowd.  If I want to eat lunch in the designated eating place I can’t leave. 

    At the end of the day, there should be a line. What that line is, that’s a great debate.  However many evangelicals and this court seem to feel there should be no line. As long as it’s Christian prayer 
    NASCAR wanting to be all inclusive nowadays makes it all the more interesting, private or not.

    Your take is basically what I said to.  When it's a group thing is where it gets complicated.
    NASCAR is hillarious.  They are doing that as an organisation 

    the fans are pissed 

    I did a double take when they started actively trying to change.  That’s a really interesting example for sure 
    NASCAR has really changed from the Good ol Boys of old.  The fans might still be like that, I am not, but the people they are rooting for surely are not.  Great example was during the Bubba Wallace incident right after the banning of the confederate flag.  Every driver walked with him in solidarity.

    NASCAR is trying.
    To me nascar has been Lynyrd Skynyrd shirts and confederate flags.  And I like Skynyrd, well their first album anyway.

    I give them a ton of credit.  It’s pretty engrained.  Seems like a normal shift to me, but it was a big deal 
    Of course it's a big deal.  You still have fans that think the next coming of The Intimidator, Dale Earnhardt is going to show up.  A man's man that chews and drinks beer and doesn't enunciate too well, lol.
  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 1,390
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    I really wish people would throw stuff back in their faces.  I'd do it but it's disingenuous as I am not a muslim.  But why don't people do it?  Muslims should be praying all over the fields....people in open carry states should get guns and walk around wherever it is legal and as close to politicians, judges, etc as possible (all within the law and no intention of using the firearm of course).  But why not throw their bullshit right back in their face and maybe even make them a little scared?

    Man - I wish I could get myself to get a gun...I just can't.  Which is why I guess people don't do this stuff ;) 
    For the most part (everyone in the world has radicals) true Muslims are extremely faithful, forgiving, and don’t like to call attention to themselves.  Now that this ruling has taken place they should ask for a prayer room in their school.  I don’t see how it would be different.  But, I just don’t see any true Muslims rocking the boat 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 36,476
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    I really wish people would throw stuff back in their faces.  I'd do it but it's disingenuous as I am not a muslim.  But why don't people do it?  Muslims should be praying all over the fields....people in open carry states should get guns and walk around wherever it is legal and as close to politicians, judges, etc as possible (all within the law and no intention of using the firearm of course).  But why not throw their bullshit right back in their face and maybe even make them a little scared?

    Man - I wish I could get myself to get a gun...I just can't.  Which is why I guess people don't do this stuff ;) 
    For the most part (everyone in the world has radicals) true Muslims are extremely faithful, forgiving, and don’t like to call attention to themselves.  Now that this ruling has taken place they should ask for a prayer room in their school.  I don’t see how it would be different.  But, I just don’t see any true Muslims rocking the boat 
    Just wait until they demand a foot washing station, markers denoting the direction to Mecca and space to roll out their prayer rugs.
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    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 28,600
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    NASCAR isn’t a public entity though.  Nor is a private school where prayer is 100 percent fine. It’s different 

    if I wanted to say grace before lunch at school as a teacher in a public school,  totally acceptable.  If I decided to lead the cafeteria in grace before lunch that’s different. Your speech being for your benefit vs your speech being directed at everyone present.  It becomes praying at people, not praying to god. God can hear you and doesn’t require a crowd.  If I want to eat lunch in the designated eating place I can’t leave. 

    At the end of the day, there should be a line. What that line is, that’s a great debate.  However many evangelicals and this court seem to feel there should be no line. As long as it’s Christian prayer 
    NASCAR wanting to be all inclusive nowadays makes it all the more interesting, private or not.

    Your take is basically what I said to.  When it's a group thing is where it gets complicated.
    NASCAR is hillarious.  They are doing that as an organisation 

    the fans are pissed 

    I did a double take when they started actively trying to change.  That’s a really interesting example for sure 
    NASCAR has really changed from the Good ol Boys of old.  The fans might still be like that, I am not, but the people they are rooting for surely are not.  Great example was during the Bubba Wallace incident right after the banning of the confederate flag.  Every driver walked with him in solidarity.

    NASCAR is trying.
    To me nascar has been Lynyrd Skynyrd shirts and confederate flags.  And I like Skynyrd, well their first album anyway.

    I give them a ton of credit.  It’s pretty engrained.  Seems like a normal shift to me, but it was a big deal 
    Second Helping is pretty good.  

    The two APs are phenomenal.  Forgot to add the first record into best sounding records I own.  
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,094
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    The job of the school is to teach...not pray. There are way too many religions to appease everyone.

    Not only do we expect teachers to teach...now we suggest they should be experts in weaponry and religion?  Insanity.
    If someone wanted to pray and it didn't bother anyone, let them pray.  I did mention that when it's a group then it would be a problem.

    People should be allowed to do as they want as long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples rights.  This is like the jersey discussion we had in the sports page.  Should you be allowed to wear an opposing jersey and not be harassed?  Absolutely.  Are there jerks in the world?  Absolutely.  Should you engage with the home team when you're wearing a bullseye?  No, that's poking the bear.

    I would expect a lot more of these cases to come about and the conservative/Christian viewpoint will be fairly vocal for the upcoming years.

    This is 3 decisions now in less than a week.
    gotcha...yeah I agree with that. I could care less if someone wants to pray on their own without interrupting class or others and there aren't any restrictions on that that I know of.


    I'm not sure if the group thing is as bad as its a leader in the community doing this, and admitted in his testimony he views his participants as better people. And of course the Christian prefererential treatment. 

    And Kavanaugh pretended this was just some dude who wanted to quietly pray. Anyone interested in catching a Justice in a lie, look at this case.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 38,847
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ
    The plaintiff said he viewed the team that way?


    But, Katskee said, that is not what Kennedy had engaged in. Instead, Katskee argued, Kennedy "insisted on audible prayers at the 50-yard line with students ... (and) announced in the press that those prayers are how he helps these kids be better people."

    ….


    if I dont want to join the public prayer, I am feeling bullied and intimidated by that comment. This is an extremely troubling opinion.



    was going to quote myself, but edit instead….I this isn’t discrimination against those choosing not to pray in public, fully sanctioned by the court, I don’t know what is.
    Agreed...and it's a slippery slope. We can imagine the scenarios that will play out now as mentioned here before. Muslim prayers, church of Satan, etc.  I know the church of Satan prayers are unlikely but hopefully someone does it to make a point.

    And where is the line drawn? If someone's religion calls for smoking marijuana during prayer will that be allowed on the 50 yard line? There was a guy in Indiana that started the church of cannabis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Church_of_Cannabis) that attempted that strategy...he got shot down by the courts but what if this happened in a state where cannabis was legal?
    The cannabis angle was done before, countless times by the Rastafarians to no avail.

    Why you couldn't have a prayer in a school under free speech always concerned me.  There is no real separation of Church and State, if their was any mention of God would be stricken and you wouldn't still be swearing an oath on a bible.

    Where the prayers get muddled is when you have an ashiest or Jewish or maybe a Roman Catholic in the group whom is uncomfortable doing the prayer but feels obligated.  I think a prayer is fine but asking others to a prayer circle may not be ok.

    NASCAR before every race still does a prayer.  I always found that interesting.

    The job of the school is to teach...not pray. There are way too many religions to appease everyone.

    Not only do we expect teachers to teach...now we suggest they should be experts in weaponry and religion?  Insanity.
    If someone wanted to pray and it didn't bother anyone, let them pray.  I did mention that when it's a group then it would be a problem.

    People should be allowed to do as they want as long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples rights.  This is like the jersey discussion we had in the sports page.  Should you be allowed to wear an opposing jersey and not be harassed?  Absolutely.  Are there jerks in the world?  Absolutely.  Should you engage with the home team when you're wearing a bullseye?  No, that's poking the bear.

    I would expect a lot more of these cases to come about and the conservative/Christian viewpoint will be fairly vocal for the upcoming years.

    This is 3 decisions now in less than a week.
    gotcha...yeah I agree with that. I could care less if someone wants to pray on their own without interrupting class or others and there aren't any restrictions on that that I know of.


    I'm not sure if the group thing is as bad as its a leader in the community doing this, and admitted in his testimony he views his participants as better people. And of course the Christian prefererential treatment. 

    And Kavanaugh pretended this was just some dude who wanted to quietly pray. Anyone interested in catching a Justice in a lie, look at this case.
    Justices in a lie?  There was 4 of them on record stating R vs W as "precedent".  No need to look anymore.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,592
    mrussel1 said:
    the incrementalism argument is the same one gun enthusiasts use and we dismiss. 


    Don’t even need to go there.

    ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    They offered the coach a private place to pray and exercise his religion, and tried to negotiate, but the coach would rather bully us with his religious rituals on the fifty yard line, on a field paid for by the public while getting paid by the public.

     If allowing the leader of the football team to practice religion on a publicly paid for field during game activities help isnt establishing religion as part of the high school program, I’m not sure words matter anymore, because America has lost its way.

    He literally argued against the first amendment and won based on first amendment “Every American should be able to have faith in public and not to be worried about being fired over it." 

    Forget the Roe ruling, if there is anything screaming for democrats to add judges to this disgraceful court, it’s this decision.

    The school was prohibiting free exercise of religion.  

    I think you're all off base on this.  If the coach linked PT to the prayer,  then the case would be stronger. But I have not heard that he did.  So he was exercising his freedoms as an individual.

    He literally said he viewed those who participated as better people.


    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    -Jesus Christ

    If Jesus was alive today:
    Funny Gifs  crazy GIF - VSGIFcom

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 22,129
    i find the concept of audibly praying on the 50 yard line of a football game to be pretty strange. do we really have to bother god about a high school football game? come on.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Cropduster-80Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited June 2022
    i find the concept of audibly praying on the 50 yard line of a football game to be pretty strange. do we really have to bother god about a high school football game? come on.
    At some point it’s not praying, it’s O.C.D. It’s a ritual/repetitive behaviour, the fact god is involved is irrelevant 

    it’s like a baseball player not touching the lines. 

    Odds are it started after a good game 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,808
    i find the concept of audibly praying on the 50 yard line of a football game to be pretty strange. do we really have to bother god about a high school football game? come on.
    At some point it’s not praying, it’s O.C.D. It’s a ritual/repetitive behaviour, the fact god is involved is irrelevant 

    it’s like a baseball player not touching the lines. 

    Odds are it started after a good game 
    maybe for some. I think some are so ego-centric they truly believe that god helped them score that touchdown. 
    Darwinspeed, all. 

    Cheers,

    HFD




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