Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

Eh, Kirsten, they voted, Trump won, and he got three seats on the Court. Now you need twenty years to get that power back. 

if abortion is made illegal i think we will see a lot more men dancing with elation on those talk shows when they hear "you are NOT the father."

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

Bentleyspop said:

A must watch and share...

https://twitter.com/SenateDems/status/1522291982319722496?t=W1dpHnV127wkmWufOkWK6Q&s=19

Right on. 
We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 

I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.

A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit.  If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even.  However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no. 

Cropduster-80 said:

mace1229 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

OnWis97 said:

What if the man wants it aborted and the woman wants to have the baby? Should he have a say, then?

I don’t think the man should have a say in the abortion.  I do think he should be given the option to give up parental rights before the birth. I don’t think it’s fair to not give him a say but keep him financially responsible and be named the father. I dont think it’s morally right for him to do that, but what is moral and legal are often not the same.

I'm a bit shocked to see someone say men should be able to give up parental rights... like, I assume you mean against the mother's will?? Saying that means you basically think that men have no responsibility in a woman getting pregnant. A baby being born to him is the risk he assumes when he sticks it in her. If a man doesn't want to be responsible for a baby then he should get a vasectomy or not have sex. Of course a man has to be held legally responsible for his own baby.

The man wants nothing to do with it but the woman doesn’t want an abortion and chooses to keep the child. It’s her choice, why is he legally responsible? 

It’s like if you decide to build a house on land you lease or otherwise don’t own. You own the house but not the land it sits on. 

The owner of the land can decline to renew your lease and you lose the house and you probably have to pay to dismantle the house. You also have zero say in what the landowner wants to do as it’s not your choice, not even a little bit. 

Your sperm may be yours but it’s going into property you don’t own.  The property owner calls the shots and that doesn’t mean you aren’t financially responsible if they choose an outcome you don’t like.  

It’s easiest to think of it in terms of ownership. She owns her body, not you.  What she decides to do with something that you put in her property isn’t your call and as long as it’s in there, she owns it.  Once it’s out, it’s no longer on her property.  Then you have a say because now it’s 1/2 yours. 

Thats is the problem dealing with land you don’t own 

 

That's a funny analogy. 

Can you imagine a world where if a man waives his parental rights, he no longer has financial responsibility?  The number of children with absent fathers would explode.  Further, the number of impoverished children would explode as well, which would lead to more crime and a host of other societal problems.  I hope that's not what Mace was suggesting.  The second and third order effects of such a rule/law would be off the charts. 

It is what I was saying. I said I don’t think it’s the right thing to do. I just don’t understand the legal side of it. I can’t think of another scenario where one person gets full decision power while holding another party financially responsible.
That lease analogy doesn’t work, you agree to those conditions when signing a lease, so it isnt just one party making the decision. No different than when a lease ends the landlord asks you to move instead of renewing the lease. Yes you’re stuck with moving expenses, but those are the terms you agreed to on the lease.
Its more like a couple breaks up at the end of their lease. One person decides to renew it and makes the other continue to pay half the rent because she wanted to keep the apartment. That would never happen.
There would be an increase in absent fathers, but I’m not sure it would explode. This probably wouldn’t effect many in an established relationship. 

It’s not the right thing to do. I just don’t get the legal standard behind giving person A sole decision making power while holding person B financially responsible for that decision. I can’t think of any other scenario where that is the case. You agree to the terms on a lease, so it isn’t just up to 1 person.

The terms of having sex are those terms 

Your A and B examples are missing the premise of the implied contract 

a. You agree to have sex and accept the consequences of such an act. 

In the event of a pregnancy 
b sole decision power is hers
c you are responsible for the outcome of that decision 

It’s how it is and those are the terms when you agree to have sex. 

You cannot question the outcome when the terms are clear before. Child support isn’t a new concept and it’s never been dependent on a man’s desire to have or not have a child.  In the event of a child both parties support the child, it’s not like the man is exclusively paying.  It’s already implied the woman is also supporting the child, and the man who doesn’t live in the household is supplementing that support/ paying his “share” as he would if he lived there.

the idea that child support is one sided because the man has a court order to pay is incorrect 

Your implied contract above appears to be a one sided contract.  Both man and woman know pregnancy could happen, but in this implied contract the woman can do whatever she wants and the man has no recourse.  Not saying that a woman shouldn't be entitled to decide, but just find this "both partners know the potential ramifications" argument to fall flat when the woman can disregard the ramifications by her choice.

It is interesting that the woman can choose to abort it purely because she doesn't believe she is in the financial or maturity state to have a child (and the left said this good for society), but the father who is immature and has no money has no similar say when both were equally part of the act that created the baby.  If it is terminated for the safety of the mother I totally understand the father having zero say.

I'm not for overturning Roe, just saying some of the arguments that the father has no say don't make total sense to me.  End of the day the mother is the one having to carry the child so I would say she should have the say on having the baby or not (just don't make an argument that all parties know the ramifications going into it if one party has choices on those ramifications).  

Hobbes said:

Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)

in Texas at least one lawmaker has floated the death penalty for both the woman and doctor.  

Lerxst1992 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

Bentleyspop said:

A must watch and share...

https://twitter.com/SenateDems/status/1522291982319722496?t=W1dpHnV127wkmWufOkWK6Q&s=19

Right on. 
We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 

I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.

A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit.  If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even.  However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no. 

There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of  people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture 

My wife is one.  She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it.  She also doesn’t want her views forced on others.  I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life.  When your personal views are separate from the legal argument a lot of people self identify with their personal view

If you look at the makeup of a lot of these statehouses it’s still overwhelmingly men.  That’s where these laws are passed. Same can be said for all the anti gay laws.  It’s not like there is a lot of gay lawmakers voting for this stuff

The only poll that matters was the one taken in Nov 2016. Black women overwhelmingly voted for Hilary, just like they normally do, but white women did not. 

Women literally voted for this current court. With one seat empty on the court at that time there were zero excuses, they did not support Choice when it mattered most.

I don’t disagree. 

Hobbes said:

Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)

Same people who thought/think those other things won't ever be considered likely thought Roe would never have been overturned a few years ago too. People need to open their eyes. This party is trying to take us back to the fucking stone age. 

The Juggler said:

Hobbes said:

Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)

Same people who thought/think those other things won't ever be considered likely thought Roe would never have been overturned a few years ago too. People need to open their eyes. This party is trying to take us back to the fucking stone age. 

Yup.

People who said Roe V Wade was on the ballot in 2016 & 2018 were called alarmist, and yet here we are. 

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

Bentleyspop said:

A must watch and share...

https://twitter.com/SenateDems/status/1522291982319722496?t=W1dpHnV127wkmWufOkWK6Q&s=19

Right on. 
We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 

I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.