Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

brianlux

bootlegger10 said:

Rightward shift of both major parties?

I don't think so.  Or at least I sure hope not.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/05/1096636861/democrats-votes-abortion-rights

From the article:

"About 30 Senate Democrats marched down the steps of the Capitol on Tuesday to declare their support for abortion rights and shout their solidarity with protesters who gathered just across the Capitol plaza in front of the Supreme Court."

However:

"Democrats are getting used to this kind of moment, part of a well-trod cycle. Their base has a demand. Democrats agree with the demand. Democrats promise action. Democrats don't have the votes in Congress to make good on that promise."

And:

"Time and time again, we have seen Democrats use abortion rights as a campaign issue and fail to deliver on their promises to protect and expand our right to reproductive freedom," said Analilia Mejia, co-executive director of the Center for Popular Democracy."

I would say this does not mean there is a rightward shift in the Democratic Party.  But it certainly look like a shift toward being weak and ineffective. 

So it seems Dems need to show up more BIG TIME and vote, and start writing more letter and calling their representatives.  That or succumb the the radical authoritarian right.  Choose.

brianlux

mrussel1

bootlegger10 said:

Rightward shift of both major parties?

It's Rage.  Wouldn't you be disappointed if they didn't feel this way?  At least they have a cause for the summer tour now. 

mickeyrat

mrussel1 said:

bootlegger10 said:

Rightward shift of both major parties?

It's Rage.  Wouldn't you be disappointed if they didn't feel this way?  At least they have a cause for the summer tour now. 

Public Announcement Tour.

now in the midterms.....

cannot fucking wait.

My birthday in July in Cleveland....

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

bootlegger10 said:

Rightward shift of both major parties?

It's Rage.  Wouldn't you be disappointed if they didn't feel this way?  At least they have a cause for the summer tour now. 

I was going to say the same thing as bootlegger, but true enough. 

cincybearcat

mace1229 said:

I guess we’ll have to disagree. To me it doesn’t make sense that abortion laws are about restricting women when nearly half of the supporters are women. It makes more sense to believe what they claim, and that is they believe a fetus is a life deserving of rights. That makes sense. Of course those views are influenced by church and politics.
I’m not trying to pick strange arguments. It just frustrates me when everything creates more division and leads to more hate among our own country. The left should recognize it’s not about controlling women, for the reasons I just stated. The right needs to recognize late term abortions are actually pretty rare and it’s not used as just another form of birth control. People are waking into the clinic 1 week before the due date because they changed their mind. Maybe we’d get some common ground if everyone could see that.

I see it a lot like you do.  Why do you have to demonize the opposing position? Both are very reasonable….

mrussel1

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

I guess we’ll have to disagree. To me it doesn’t make sense that abortion laws are about restricting women when nearly half of the supporters are women. It makes more sense to believe what they claim, and that is they believe a fetus is a life deserving of rights. That makes sense. Of course those views are influenced by church and politics.
I’m not trying to pick strange arguments. It just frustrates me when everything creates more division and leads to more hate among our own country. The left should recognize it’s not about controlling women, for the reasons I just stated. The right needs to recognize late term abortions are actually pretty rare and it’s not used as just another form of birth control. People are waking into the clinic 1 week before the due date because they changed their mind. Maybe we’d get some common ground if everyone could see that.

I see it a lot like you do.  Why do you have to demonize the opposing position? Both are very reasonable….

It’s very reasonable to oppose abortion for yourself or partner.  It’s much less reasonable to believe the govt should force a woman to carry a child to term against her wishes.  

There is not a true compromise position for the pro life movement.  If you believe life and rights begin at conception, then how can you accept  an abortion regardless of the weeks?  You cannot.  The left has made the compromises, agreeing that late term aborti9ns should only occur when the mother is at risk.  That’s a very common D position.

cincybearcat

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

I guess we’ll have to disagree. To me it doesn’t make sense that abortion laws are about restricting women when nearly half of the supporters are women. It makes more sense to believe what they claim, and that is they believe a fetus is a life deserving of rights. That makes sense. Of course those views are influenced by church and politics.
I’m not trying to pick strange arguments. It just frustrates me when everything creates more division and leads to more hate among our own country. The left should recognize it’s not about controlling women, for the reasons I just stated. The right needs to recognize late term abortions are actually pretty rare and it’s not used as just another form of birth control. People are waking into the clinic 1 week before the due date because they changed their mind. Maybe we’d get some common ground if everyone could see that.

I see it a lot like you do.  Why do you have to demonize the opposing position? Both are very reasonable….

It’s very reasonable to oppose abortion for yourself or partner.  It’s much less reasonable to believe the govt should force a woman to carry a child to term against her wishes.  

There is not a true compromise position for the pro life movement.  If you believe life and rights begin at conception, then how can you accept  an abortion regardless of the weeks?  You cannot.  The left has made the compromises, agreeing that late term aborti9ns should only occur when the mother is at risk.  That’s a very common D position.

Right. And for those that believe life begins at conception abortion is murder. It doesn’t mean they are trying to control women.

cincybearcat

I should say…I do think majority opinion matters in a lot of cases. Especially when granting more rights bs taking them away. 

I believe this had been settled in the courts and by the people. So I think pro life efforts should shift to sex education and providing contraception. And also ensuring pregnant women can have a true open conversation about alternatives if they wish.

There are certainly crazy zealots on both sides and more so on the anti-abortion side. But there are a lot of people that just believe it’s a life and therefore a terrible tragedy.

HughFreakingDillon

cincybearcat said:

I should say…I do think majority opinion matters in a lot of cases. Especially when granting more rights bs taking them away. 

I believe this had been settled in the courts and by the people. So I think pro life efforts should shift to sex education and providing contraception. And also ensuring pregnant women can have a true open conversation about alternatives if they wish.

There are certainly crazy zealots on both sides and more so on the anti-abortion side. But there are a lot of people that just believe it’s a life and therefore a terrible tragedy.

if they showed that they care about the kid after it is delivered, I might actually believe that. 

mrussel1

cincybearcat said:

I should say…I do think majority opinion matters in a lot of cases. Especially when granting more rights bs taking them away. 

I believe this had been settled in the courts and by the people. So I think pro life efforts should shift to sex education and providing contraception. And also ensuring pregnant women can have a true open conversation about alternatives if they wish.

There are certainly crazy zealots on both sides and more so on the anti-abortion side. But there are a lot of people that just believe it’s a life and therefore a terrible tragedy.

Why do you think the majority should have the right to dictate here?  For example, the Bill of Rights was established precisely to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.  When Loving v Virginia was decided, finally allowing mixed marriages in this country, a strong majority of the population was against interracial marriage.  Were they right?  Should the majority have the ability to prevent the exercise of free will that does no harm to another living human?  You might say, well that's crazy that we wouldn't allow interracial marriage today.  But Sen. Mike Braun (R-ID) said that you can't have it both ways and even Loving should be left to the states to decide.  

You can believe it's a terrible tragedy.  I do.  I wish we didn't have to have abortion, but I support a woman's choice here.  As Clinton put it, it should be safe and rare.  

mrussel1

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

I guess we’ll have to disagree. To me it doesn’t make sense that abortion laws are about restricting women when nearly half of the supporters are women. It makes more sense to believe what they claim, and that is they believe a fetus is a life deserving of rights. That makes sense. Of course those views are influenced by church and politics.
I’m not trying to pick strange arguments. It just frustrates me when everything creates more division and leads to more hate among our own country. The left should recognize it’s not about controlling women, for the reasons I just stated. The right needs to recognize late term abortions are actually pretty rare and it’s not used as just another form of birth control. People are waking into the clinic 1 week before the due date because they changed their mind. Maybe we’d get some common ground if everyone could see that.

I see it a lot like you do.  Why do you have to demonize the opposing position? Both are very reasonable….

It’s very reasonable to oppose abortion for yourself or partner.  It’s much less reasonable to believe the govt should force a woman to carry a child to term against her wishes.  

There is not a true compromise position for the pro life movement.  If you believe life and rights begin at conception, then how can you accept  an abortion regardless of the weeks?  You cannot.  The left has made the compromises, agreeing that late term aborti9ns should only occur when the mother is at risk.  That’s a very common D position.

Right. And for those that believe life begins at conception abortion is murder. It doesn’t mean they are trying to control women.

And again, back to the point.  What it does mean is that the vast majority of the state delegates passing these laws are men.  That's why people say it's men controlling women.  

brianlux

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

I guess we’ll have to disagree. To me it doesn’t make sense that abortion laws are about restricting women when nearly half of the supporters are women. It makes more sense to believe what they claim, and that is they believe a fetus is a life deserving of rights. That makes sense. Of course those views are influenced by church and politics.
I’m not trying to pick strange arguments. It just frustrates me when everything creates more division and leads to more hate among our own country. The left should recognize it’s not about controlling women, for the reasons I just stated. The right needs to recognize late term abortions are actually pretty rare and it’s not used as just another form of birth control. People are waking into the clinic 1 week before the due date because they changed their mind. Maybe we’d get some common ground if everyone could see that.

I see it a lot like you do.  Why do you have to demonize the opposing position? Both are very reasonable….

It’s very reasonable to oppose abortion for yourself or partner.  It’s much less reasonable to believe the govt should force a woman to carry a child to term against her wishes.  

There is not a true compromise position for the pro life movement.  If you believe life and rights begin at conception, then how can you accept  an abortion regardless of the weeks?  You cannot.  The left has made the compromises, agreeing that late term aborti9ns should only occur when the mother is at risk.  That’s a very common D position.

Right. And for those that believe life begins at conception abortion is murder. It doesn’t mean they are trying to control women.

And again, back to the point.  What it does mean is that the vast majority of the state delegates passing these laws are men.  That's why people say it's men controlling women.  

Plus the Supreme Court justices, right?  6 men, 3 women.

cincybearcat

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

I should say…I do think majority opinion matters in a lot of cases. Especially when granting more rights bs taking them away. 

I believe this had been settled in the courts and by the people. So I think pro life efforts should shift to sex education and providing contraception. And also ensuring pregnant women can have a true open conversation about alternatives if they wish.

There are certainly crazy zealots on both sides and more so on the anti-abortion side. But there are a lot of people that just believe it’s a life and therefore a terrible tragedy.

Why do you think the majority should have the right to dictate here?  For example, the Bill of Rights was established precisely to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.  When Loving v Virginia was decided, finally allowing mixed marriages in this country, a strong majority of the population was against interracial marriage.  Were they right?  Should the majority have the ability to prevent the exercise of free will that does no harm to another living human?  You might say, well that's crazy that we wouldn't allow interracial marriage today.  But Sen. Mike Braun (R-ID) said that you can't have it both ways and even Loving should be left to the states to decide.  

You can believe it's a terrible tragedy.  I do.  I wish we didn't have to have abortion, but I support a woman's choice here.  As Clinton put it, it should be safe and rare.  

I mentioned the opinion of the majority in a society matters and especially when granting more rights vs limiting them. I think that is how you move forward. That’s all.

brianlux

Another meme that nails it!

Merkin Baller

HughFreakingDillon said:

cincybearcat said:

I should say…I do think majority opinion matters in a lot of cases. Especially when granting more rights bs taking them away. 

I believe this had been settled in the courts and by the people. So I think pro life efforts should shift to sex education and providing contraception. And also ensuring pregnant women can have a true open conversation about alternatives if they wish.

There are certainly crazy zealots on both sides and more so on the anti-abortion side. But there are a lot of people that just believe it’s a life and therefore a terrible tragedy.

if they showed that they care about the kid after it is delivered, I might actually believe that. 

Yup. 

Bentleyspop

brianlux said:

Another meme that nails it!

Like this one...

PJPOWER

I searched around on different social media pages for this topic and almost all of the comments supporting “right to life” were made by women.  I found relative few men even commenting on the subject, and most that did were on the “choice” front.  Also, at the Planned Parenthood clinic in my city, I’ve only ever seen women outside protesting in favor of “right to life”.   I know it’s not a great metric, but a valid observation I think.  On the same note, most of the “choice” comments seemed to be made by women as well, but there were more men tricking in comments on that side.  What it seemed like was mostly women vs women on this subject.  

mrussel1

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

I should say…I do think majority opinion matters in a lot of cases. Especially when granting more rights bs taking them away. 

I believe this had been settled in the courts and by the people. So I think pro life efforts should shift to sex education and providing contraception. And also ensuring pregnant women can have a true open conversation about alternatives if they wish.

There are certainly crazy zealots on both sides and more so on the anti-abortion side. But there are a lot of people that just believe it’s a life and therefore a terrible tragedy.

Why do you think the majority should have the right to dictate here?  For example, the Bill of Rights was established precisely to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.  When Loving v Virginia was decided, finally allowing mixed marriages in this country, a strong majority of the population was against interracial marriage.  Were they right?  Should the majority have the ability to prevent the exercise of free will that does no harm to another living human?  You might say, well that's crazy that we wouldn't allow interracial marriage today.  But Sen. Mike Braun (R-ID) said that you can't have it both ways and even Loving should be left to the states to decide.  

You can believe it's a terrible tragedy.  I do.  I wish we didn't have to have abortion, but I support a woman's choice here.  As Clinton put it, it should be safe and rare.  

I mentioned the opinion of the majority in a society matters and especially when granting more rights vs limiting them. I think that is how you move forward. That’s all.

It matters, inasmuch as it makes it easier.  But it shouldn't matter.  Personal rights should not be subject to the tyranny of the majority.  

Bentleyspop

PJPOWER said:

I searched around on different social media pages for this topic and almost all of the comments supporting “right to life” were made by women.  I found relative few men even commenting on the subject, and most that did were on the “choice” front.  Also, at the Planned Parenthood clinic in my city, I’ve only ever seen women outside protesting in favor of “right to life”.   I know it’s not a great metric, but a valid observation I think.  On the same note, most of the “choice” comments seemed to be made by women as well, but there were more men tricking in comments on that side.  What it seemed like was mostly women vs women on this subject.  

Don't know where you live but the clinic near me always has the same old (70+) white guy protesting and sometimes a few other old white guys join him.
Rarely are there women but I'm sure it happens.