Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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Comments

  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,853
    Eh, Kirsten, they voted, Trump won, and he got three seats on the Court. Now you need twenty years to get that power back. 

    Too bad Dems prefer good candidates more than good policy.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,052
    if abortion is made illegal i think we will see a lot more men dancing with elation on those talk shows when they hear "you are NOT the father."
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,373
    gimmesometruth27 said:
    if abortion is made illegal i think we will see a lot more men dancing with elation on those talk shows when they hear "you are NOT the father."
    Maury retired

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,825
    brianlux said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited May 2022
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
    A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit.  If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even.  However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no. 

    There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of  people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture 


    My wife is one.  She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it.  She also doesn’t want her views forced on others.  I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life.  When your personal views are separate from the legal argument a lot of people self identify with their personal view

    If you look at the makeup of a lot of these statehouses it’s still overwhelmingly men.  That’s where these laws are passed. Same can be said for all the anti gay laws.  It’s not like there is a lot of gay lawmakers voting for this stuff

    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,825
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
    A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit.  If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even.  However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no. 

    There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of pro life people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture 


    My wife is one.  She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it.  She also doesn’t want her views forced on others.  I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life 


    Stats on abortions can be tricky because of the qualifiers. The ones that I’ve seen that say abortions should be banned no matter what do have a higher percentage of men, but even then it’s still like a 60/40 split. But qualifiers that allow for certain exceptions are pretty close to 50/50 .
    I still don’t see it as a big enough difference to claim the motive is men wanting to control women when 45% of the group are women.
  • bootlegger10
    bootlegger10 Posts: 16,255
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mace1229 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    What if the man wants it aborted and the woman wants to have the baby? Should he have a say, then?
    I don’t think the man should have a say in the abortion.  I do think he should be given the option to give up parental rights before the birth. I don’t think it’s fair to not give him a say but keep him financially responsible and be named the father. I dont think it’s morally right for him to do that, but what is moral and legal are often not the same.
    I'm a bit shocked to see someone say men should be able to give up parental rights... like, I assume you mean against the mother's will?? Saying that means you basically think that men have no responsibility in a woman getting pregnant. A baby being born to him is the risk he assumes when he sticks it in her. If a man doesn't want to be responsible for a baby then he should get a vasectomy or not have sex. Of course a man has to be held legally responsible for his own baby.


    The man wants nothing to do with it but the woman doesn’t want an abortion and chooses to keep the child. It’s her choice, why is he legally responsible? 

    It’s like if you decide to build a house on land you lease or otherwise don’t own. You own the house but not the land it sits on. 

    The owner of the land can decline to renew your lease and you lose the house and you probably have to pay to dismantle the house. You also have zero say in what the landowner wants to do as it’s not your choice, not even a little bit. 

    Your sperm may be yours but it’s going into property you don’t own.  The property owner calls the shots and that doesn’t mean you aren’t financially responsible if they choose an outcome you don’t like.  

    It’s easiest to think of it in terms of ownership. She owns her body, not you.  What she decides to do with something that you put in her property isn’t your call and as long as it’s in there, she owns it.  Once it’s out, it’s no longer on her property.  Then you have a say because now it’s 1/2 yours. 

    Thats is the problem dealing with land you don’t own 

     



    That's a funny analogy. 

    Can you imagine a world where if a man waives his parental rights, he no longer has financial responsibility?  The number of children with absent fathers would explode.  Further, the number of impoverished children would explode as well, which would lead to more crime and a host of other societal problems.  I hope that's not what Mace was suggesting.  The second and third order effects of such a rule/law would be off the charts. 
    It is what I was saying. I said I don’t think it’s the right thing to do. I just don’t understand the legal side of it. I can’t think of another scenario where one person gets full decision power while holding another party financially responsible.
    That lease analogy doesn’t work, you agree to those conditions when signing a lease, so it isnt just one party making the decision. No different than when a lease ends the landlord asks you to move instead of renewing the lease. Yes you’re stuck with moving expenses, but those are the terms you agreed to on the lease.
    Its more like a couple breaks up at the end of their lease. One person decides to renew it and makes the other continue to pay half the rent because she wanted to keep the apartment. That would never happen.
    There would be an increase in absent fathers, but I’m not sure it would explode. This probably wouldn’t effect many in an established relationship. 
    It’s not the right thing to do. I just don’t get the legal standard behind giving person A sole decision making power while holding person B financially responsible for that decision. I can’t think of any other scenario where that is the case. You agree to the terms on a lease, so it isn’t just up to 1 person.

    The terms of having sex are those terms 

    Your A and B examples are missing the premise of the implied contract 

    a. You agree to have sex and accept the consequences of such an act. 
    In the event of a pregnancy 
    b sole decision power is hers
    c you are responsible for the outcome of that decision 

    It’s how it is and those are the terms when you agree to have sex. 

    You cannot question the outcome when the terms are clear before. Child support isn’t a new concept and it’s never been dependent on a man’s desire to have or not have a child.  In the event of a child both parties support the child, it’s not like the man is exclusively paying.  It’s already implied the woman is also supporting the child, and the man who doesn’t live in the household is supplementing that support/ paying his “share” as he would if he lived there.

    the idea that child support is one sided because the man has a court order to pay is incorrect 
    Your implied contract above appears to be a one sided contract.  Both man and woman know pregnancy could happen, but in this implied contract the woman can do whatever she wants and the man has no recourse.  Not saying that a woman shouldn't be entitled to decide, but just find this "both partners know the potential ramifications" argument to fall flat when the woman can disregard the ramifications by her choice.

    It is interesting that the woman can choose to abort it purely because she doesn't believe she is in the financial or maturity state to have a child (and the left said this good for society), but the father who is immature and has no money has no similar say when both were equally part of the act that created the baby.  If it is terminated for the safety of the mother I totally understand the father having zero say.

    I'm not for overturning Roe, just saying some of the arguments that the father has no say don't make total sense to me.  End of the day the mother is the one having to carry the child so I would say she should have the say on having the baby or not (just don't make an argument that all parties know the ramifications going into it if one party has choices on those ramifications).  
  • Hobbes
    Hobbes Pacific Northwest Posts: 6,438
    Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

    Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)
  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    Hobbes said:
    Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

    Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)
    in Texas at least one lawmaker has floated the death penalty for both the woman and doctor.  

    Yet GOP talking points are pretty clear: portray democrats as the ones out of the mainstream on abortion 
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,853
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
    A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit.  If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even.  However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no. 

    There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of  people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture 


    My wife is one.  She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it.  She also doesn’t want her views forced on others.  I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life.  When your personal views are separate from the legal argument a lot of people self identify with their personal view

    If you look at the makeup of a lot of these statehouses it’s still overwhelmingly men.  That’s where these laws are passed. Same can be said for all the anti gay laws.  It’s not like there is a lot of gay lawmakers voting for this stuff



    The only poll that matters was the one taken in Nov 2016. Black women overwhelmingly voted for Hilary, just like they normally do, but white women did not. 

    Women literally voted for this current court. With one seat empty on the court at that time there were zero excuses, they did not support Choice when it mattered most.
  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    Lerxst1992 said:
    Cropduster-80 said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
    A lot of that polling you have to look into the data a bit.  If 54% of women are pro choice for example it looks pretty even.  However when asked should Roe be overturned it’s 2/3 say or 66% say no. 

    There are pro life people and pro choice people… there are also a lot of  people who are against abortion morally but who also don’t want the government deciding that question so capturing the pro choice light crowd is harder to capture 


    My wife is one.  She would never ever have an abortion under any circumstance and is morally opposed to it.  She also doesn’t want her views forced on others.  I consider her pro choice, she considers herself pro life.  When your personal views are separate from the legal argument a lot of people self identify with their personal view

    If you look at the makeup of a lot of these statehouses it’s still overwhelmingly men.  That’s where these laws are passed. Same can be said for all the anti gay laws.  It’s not like there is a lot of gay lawmakers voting for this stuff



    The only poll that matters was the one taken in Nov 2016. Black women overwhelmingly voted for Hilary, just like they normally do, but white women did not. 

    Women literally voted for this current court. With one seat empty on the court at that time there were zero excuses, they did not support Choice when it mattered most.
    I don’t disagree. 

    The hold your nose and vote for trump vote was real even if the consequences weren’t fully known.  3 justices in 4 years (even though one was already known) was pretty shocking to a lot of people. 

    I held my nose and voted for Hillary because of that.  Both candidates were terrible and I really don’t think a lot of those swing votes factored all that in 

    we are where we are though 
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,825
    Hobbes said:
    Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

    Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)
    I said all forms would never be banned. I figured some would be. Surprised it’s this quick though.
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    Hobbes said:
    Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

    Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)
    Same people who thought/think those other things won't ever be considered likely thought Roe would never have been overturned a few years ago too. People need to open their eyes. This party is trying to take us back to the fucking stone age. 
    www.myspace.com
  • Cropduster-80
    Cropduster-80 Posts: 2,034
    edited May 2022
    mace1229 said:
    Hobbes said:
    Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

    Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)
    I said all forms would never be banned. I figured some would be. Surprised it’s this quick though.
    Never ever underestimate the hard right to push through what objectively is pretty extreme legislation.

    the will go absolutely as far as they can, if they can’t they will change the rules and try again. 

    Fundamentally that’s the problem with the GOP in particular.  They are far more likely to support other members out of loyalty and that’s exactly how extreme laws get passed. Democrats are all over the map on every issue. Republicans are pretty much united.

    what is also going to happen is police investigations of miscarriages… if a possible “crime” has been committed women will go through all kinds of additional trauma over an event that they are already devastated by.   Miscarriages can’t not be investigated as it’s now a suspicious death. If you have a miscarriage at home you are going to have to report it, obviously 
    Post edited by Cropduster-80 on
  • Merkin Baller
    Merkin Baller Posts: 12,769
    The Juggler said:
    Hobbes said:
    Louisiana says we can out do y'all. Legislation will make abortion a homicide beginning at conception. They want rights and laws protecting humans to be extended to the time of fertilization. Oh, and they want to also criminalize IVF and certain contraception. Didn't someone state those things were not being considered?

    Louisiana legislators advance bill classifying abortion as homicide (msn.com)
    Same people who thought/think those other things won't ever be considered likely thought Roe would never have been overturned a few years ago too. People need to open their eyes. This party is trying to take us back to the fucking stone age. 

    Yup.

    People who said Roe V Wade was on the ballot in 2016 & 2018 were called alarmist, and yet here we are. 
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    edited May 2022
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.
    No, when people say that it's because the lawmakers that are pushing these bills are overwhelmingly men.  The R party is the one that is pro life and it's lawmaker makeup is not 50/50, which would be the population split. 
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.

    I didn't say that mace.  What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights.  They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men.  That simple.  I never said it was men taking away women's rights. 

    HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
    Justices

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    brianlux said:
    mace1229 said:
    brianlux said:
    Bentleyspop said:
    A must watch and share...



    Right on. 
    We men need to stand up for women and say, "Enough of this bullshit. We're not in favor of taking away a woman's right to choose.  Were not going to let this happen." 
    I don’t see why I keep seeing this as men taking away womens rights. On most polls I’ve seen, the split between men and women being against abortion is around 5%. Pretty close to half and half.

    I didn't say that mace.  What I said was to encourage men to stand up for women's rights.  They are the ones who may be denied the right to their bodies, not us men.  That simple.  I never said it was men taking away women's rights. 

    HOWEVER... lets see who will make the final judgement- men and women equally?
    Justices

    Not to mention that all but 1 of these people who'll potentially vote to overturn it was nominated by a president who did not receive the most votes in their respective election.

    Welcome to Minority Rule. 
    www.myspace.com

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