Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Sorry, what I meant to say was “thoughts and prayers”.
no. your point was made. well made. over and over and over and over.
I want to know where the breakdown occured and how.
what was industry standard before this incident , how that wasnt met.
what changes should be adopted industry wide and how those come about. Who drives that? Crew unions? Directors guild? Producers? Insurance?
Thanks for clarifying. I think every entity you mentioned could help drive change and I think OSHA should get involved as well and require a minimum set of training for anyone handling a firearm on the job in any capacity.
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
Except for “responsible” gun buyers in the “real world.” What a joke. Heavy advocacy for movie sets and the “tragic consequences” but nothing but Yee haws and Buh Buh Buh the 2A for the rest of us not living on a movie set. Hilarious.
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
He should be charged…
Whoever loaded the live round is who should be charged. Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
He should be charged…
Whoever loaded the live round is who should be charged. Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
Exactly why everyone should treat every gun as if it were loaded with a live round. Basic safety…never point at anyone (no exceptions for actors or movie sets, they are obviously not immune to accidents) and don’t put your finger on the trigger until you are sure of your target and ready to destroy what you are aiming at. Very very basic stuff that anyone handling a firearm should know. The last thing anyone should ever do is assume any real firearm is not loaded with real bullets.
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
He should be charged…
Whoever loaded the live round is who should be charged. Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
Exactly why everyone should treat every gun as if it were loaded with a live round. Basic safety…never point at anyone (no exceptions for actors or movie sets, they are obviously not immune to accidents) and don’t put your finger on the trigger until you are sure of your target and ready to destroy what you are aiming at. Very very basic stuff that anyone handling a firearm should know. The last thing anyone should ever do is assume any real firearm is not loaded with real bullets.
You should call Alec up and tell him that.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
He should be charged…
Whoever loaded the live round is who should be charged. Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
Exactly why everyone should treat every gun as if it were loaded with a live round. Basic safety…never point at anyone (no exceptions for actors or movie sets, they are obviously not immune to accidents) and don’t put your finger on the trigger until you are sure of your target and ready to destroy what you are aiming at. Very very basic stuff that anyone handling a firearm should know. The last thing anyone should ever do is assume any real firearm is not loaded with real bullets.
You should call Alec up and tell him that.
I’m sure he is well aware now, but do you have his #?
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
He should be charged…
Whoever loaded the live round is who should be charged. Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
Exactly why everyone should treat every gun as if it were loaded with a live round. Basic safety…never point at anyone (no exceptions for actors or movie sets, they are obviously not immune to accidents) and don’t put your finger on the trigger until you are sure of your target and ready to destroy what you are aiming at. Very very basic stuff that anyone handling a firearm should know. The last thing anyone should ever do is assume any real firearm is not loaded with real bullets.
You should call Alec up and tell him that.
I’m sure he is well aware now, but do you have his #?
Guess I could get it from Stephen or William
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
He should be charged…
Whoever loaded the live round is who should be charged. Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
Exactly why everyone should treat every gun as if it were loaded with a live round. Basic safety…never point at anyone (no exceptions for actors or movie sets, they are obviously not immune to accidents) and don’t put your finger on the trigger until you are sure of your target and ready to destroy what you are aiming at. Very very basic stuff that anyone handling a firearm should know. The last thing anyone should ever do is assume any real firearm is not loaded with real bullets.
You should call Alec up and tell him that.
I’m sure he is well aware now, but do you have his #?
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
He should be charged…
Whoever loaded the live round is who should be charged. Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
Exactly why everyone should treat every gun as if it were loaded with a live round. Basic safety…never point at anyone (no exceptions for actors or movie sets, they are obviously not immune to accidents) and don’t put your finger on the trigger until you are sure of your target and ready to destroy what you are aiming at. Very very basic stuff that anyone handling a firearm should know. The last thing anyone should ever do is assume any real firearm is not loaded with real bullets.
You should call Alec up and tell him that.
I’m sure he is well aware now, but do you have his #?
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
Then don’t handle guns if you are that clueless and point a gun, pull the trigger in direction of people having never personally inspected the gun…
He should be charged…
Whoever loaded the live round is who should be charged. Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
Exactly why everyone should treat every gun as if it were loaded with a live round. Basic safety…never point at anyone (no exceptions for actors or movie sets, they are obviously not immune to accidents) and don’t put your finger on the trigger until you are sure of your target and ready to destroy what you are aiming at. Very very basic stuff that anyone handling a firearm should know. The last thing anyone should ever do is assume any real firearm is not loaded with real bullets.
You should call Alec up and tell him that.
I’m sure he is well aware now, but do you have his #?
Guess I could get it from Stephen or William
Daniel certainly doesn't have it.
Correct.
I SAW PEARL JAM
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,661
I'm sorry I started this thread!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Since when are actors supposed to be fire arms experts. They're actors. And again, why was there a live round in that gun in the first place? Sure seems suspicious to me- like maybe someone was being set up? And OK, if not that, then why the hell a live round on a movie set?
I don’t think he is criminally liable. But basic gun safety 101, first thing you’re ever taught as a gun owner, is never assume a gun is unloaded. We can expect actors to gain or lose 50 lbs, or hours a day learning dance/karate/music/extreme workout/whatever the role requires. But the mention of learning the first basic gun safety rule seems ridiculous to many. I just don’t get that. As long as real guns are used, everyone who touches it should know basic gun safety. It’s a whole lot easier than gaining 50lbs of muscle for a movie role that is often expected without a second thought. I agree, no live rounds should be allowed on a set. I heard several reports that the crew was using the “prop” guns as target practice during down time. Seems like someone left a live round in it and was never checked by the several people who handled it and were in charge. I don’t think it was a set up, just gross negligence of those in charge.
And I used “prop” gun because a real gun used as a prop is considered a prop gun.
I don’t think Alec should go to jail. But I don’t understand why everyone wouldn’t want anyone who handles a real gun to have basic training and understanding and be a final check before using them?
No father of the year for the clown and no invite to lecture gun safety at an nra rally.
Give Peas A Chance…
0
The Juggler
Behind that bush over there. Posts: 47,215
edited November 2021
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Only on movie sets. Actors need to be “responsible.” More so than a real gun owner.
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Only on movie sets. Actors need to be “responsible.” More so than a real gun owner.
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm here?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
And I don’t remember anyone excusing gun owners from basic gun safety. Pretty much all gun owners here are for that. No one is expecting more from Alec than anyone else. Just “I’m an actor” isn’t an excuse to not know.
I’m actually really surprised it doesn’t fall under common sense gun law to require anyone handling a gun to have basic knowledge of a gun and be able to check if it’s loaded. Sounds like a terrible idea to me to tell someone to point a real gun at someone and pull the trigger to not be able to check for himself if it’s loaded or not. Pretty sure they wouldn’t give the keys to a car to an actor who knows nothing about driving and expect them to drive on set. We’re not talking about being a gunsmith expert here, but to be able to check if it’s loaded? Why is that such a terrible idea?
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Only on movie sets. Actors need to be “responsible.” More so than a real gun owner.
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm here?
It’s hard to take those advocating more forcefully for restrictions on gun handling and safety protocols on movie sets when only 6 states require any type of “training “ prior to becoming a “responsible” gun owner. It seems that almost every day someone is shot and/or killed, many of them children, in ‘Murica by a “responsible” gun owner or via their behavior. Crickets. A waning actor who is gifted in his abilities but apparently an asshole lib in his personal life and the advocacy for all kinds of consequences and “training” and “responsibility,” etc. from those who normally are fine with the status quo is laughable. It’s a joke.
Why is Alec Baldwin any different than the thousands that came before him since 1990, when the last death from a gun occurred on a movie set? But I bet those movie sets do make changes and it’ll be another 20 years before it happens again while outside in ‘Murica, it’ll probably happen tomorrow and nothing will change.
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Only on movie sets. Actors need to be “responsible.” More so than a real gun owner.
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm here?
It’s hard to take those advocating more forcefully for restrictions on gun handling and safety protocols on movie sets when only 6 states require any type of “training “ prior to becoming a “responsible” gun owner. It seems that almost every day someone is shot and/or killed, many of them children, in ‘Murica by a “responsible” gun owner or via their behavior. Crickets. A waning actor who is gifted in his abilities but apparently an asshole lib in his personal life and the advocacy for all kinds of consequences and “training” and “responsibility,” etc. from those who normally are fine with the status quo is laughable. It’s a joke.
Why is Alec Baldwin any different than the thousands that came before him since 1990, when the last death from a gun occurred on a movie set? But I bet those movie sets do make changes and it’ll be another 20 years before it happens again while outside in ‘Murica, it’ll probably happen tomorrow and nothing will change.
I’d be fine if all states required a safety test before purchasing a gun. Most gun owners here seem to be open to some improved measures. Better background checks, no gun show loop holes, etc.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,661
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Only on movie sets. Actors need to be “responsible.” More so than a real gun owner.
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm here?
It’s hard to take those advocating more forcefully for restrictions on gun handling and safety protocols on movie sets when only 6 states require any type of “training “ prior to becoming a “responsible” gun owner. It seems that almost every day someone is shot and/or killed, many of them children, in ‘Murica by a “responsible” gun owner or via their behavior. Crickets. A waning actor who is gifted in his abilities but apparently an asshole lib in his personal life and the advocacy for all kinds of consequences and “training” and “responsibility,” etc. from those who normally are fine with the status quo is laughable. It’s a joke.
Why is Alec Baldwin any different than the thousands that came before him since 1990, when the last death from a gun occurred on a movie set? But I bet those movie sets do make changes and it’ll be another 20 years before it happens again while outside in ‘Murica, it’ll probably happen tomorrow and nothing will change.
It's very likely to have happened already.
Yeah, a lot of hammering on Alec Baldwin going on here. I get the feeling some are thinking, "Well, what the heck, it's a western, surely the must have a gallows set up somewhere."
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
I’m with ya, very reasonable. I have always been an advocate of more training and safety courses. Everyone handling a firearm should take at least a basic safety class. Who here has not? I just think that any laws related to negligence with a firearm or negligent homicide that apply to other citizens should apply to Alec Baldwin as well.
I think it’s negligent not to have some basic understanding of firearm safety if you are handling one, whether in the general public or on a movie set. I had to take a “Hunter’s Safety” class before hunting and am supposed to keep the certification card on me any time I’m hunting, so maybe actors should be required to take a “Actor Safety” class before using a gun on set? As mace pointed out, they have plenty of time to work on their appearance, they have a few hours to spare on a safety class. OSHA should require it… The hypocrisy from the gun control crowd here is astounding…
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Only on movie sets. Actors need to be “responsible.” More so than a real gun owner.
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm here?
It’s hard to take those advocating more forcefully for restrictions on gun handling and safety protocols on movie sets when only 6 states require any type of “training “ prior to becoming a “responsible” gun owner. It seems that almost every day someone is shot and/or killed, many of them children, in ‘Murica by a “responsible” gun owner or via their behavior. Crickets. A waning actor who is gifted in his abilities but apparently an asshole lib in his personal life and the advocacy for all kinds of consequences and “training” and “responsibility,” etc. from those who normally are fine with the status quo is laughable. It’s a joke.
Why is Alec Baldwin any different than the thousands that came before him since 1990, when the last death from a gun occurred on a movie set? But I bet those movie sets do make changes and it’ll be another 20 years before it happens again while outside in ‘Murica, it’ll probably happen tomorrow and nothing will change.
It's a controlled environment where actors are relying on someone w training to guide them through the movie. They aren't handling a gun to protect themselves, it's acting.
Of course there is a difference.
0
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,643
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Only on movie sets. Actors need to be “responsible.” More so than a real gun owner.
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm here?
It’s hard to take those advocating more forcefully for restrictions on gun handling and safety protocols on movie sets when only 6 states require any type of “training “ prior to becoming a “responsible” gun owner. It seems that almost every day someone is shot and/or killed, many of them children, in ‘Murica by a “responsible” gun owner or via their behavior. Crickets. A waning actor who is gifted in his abilities but apparently an asshole lib in his personal life and the advocacy for all kinds of consequences and “training” and “responsibility,” etc. from those who normally are fine with the status quo is laughable. It’s a joke.
Why is Alec Baldwin any different than the thousands that came before him since 1990, when the last death from a gun occurred on a movie set? But I bet those movie sets do make changes and it’ll be another 20 years before it happens again while outside in ‘Murica, it’ll probably happen tomorrow and nothing will change.
It's a controlled environment where actors are relying on someone w training to guide them through the movie. They aren't handling a gun to protect themselves, it's acting.
Of course there is a difference.
similar to a parent leaving a weapon just laying around accessable. they arent geld accountable when a child finds and fires said weapon. killing or injuring others. THEN its an accident.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
0
mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,643
edited November 2021
or those parents who thought it wise and cool to take young daughter to range to fire a fucking uzi. AND dumbfuck instructor who did it and lost his life in the process. were the parents held to account? the range owner?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
or those parents who thought it wise and cool to take young daughter to range to fire a fucking uzi. AND dumbfuck instructor who did it and lost his life in the process. were the parents held to account? the range owner?
Lots of talk about basic gun safety shit. Almost makes me think one should have to pass a gun safety test/course before being able to purchase and/or handle a deadly weapon. We do that with cars. Why not guns? Seems reasonable.
Only on movie sets. Actors need to be “responsible.” More so than a real gun owner.
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm here?
It’s hard to take those advocating more forcefully for restrictions on gun handling and safety protocols on movie sets when only 6 states require any type of “training “ prior to becoming a “responsible” gun owner. It seems that almost every day someone is shot and/or killed, many of them children, in ‘Murica by a “responsible” gun owner or via their behavior. Crickets. A waning actor who is gifted in his abilities but apparently an asshole lib in his personal life and the advocacy for all kinds of consequences and “training” and “responsibility,” etc. from those who normally are fine with the status quo is laughable. It’s a joke.
Why is Alec Baldwin any different than the thousands that came before him since 1990, when the last death from a gun occurred on a movie set? But I bet those movie sets do make changes and it’ll be another 20 years before it happens again while outside in ‘Murica, it’ll probably happen tomorrow and nothing will change.
It's a controlled environment where actors are relying on someone w training to guide them through the movie. They aren't handling a gun to protect themselves, it's acting.
Of course there is a difference.
similar to a parent leaving a weapon just laying around accessable. they arent geld accountable when a child finds and fires said weapon. killing or injuring others. THEN its an accident.
or those parents who thought it wise and cool to take young daughter to range to fire a fucking uzi. AND dumbfuck instructor who did it and lost his life in the process. were the parents held to account? the range owner?
I thought about this one and there are some key differences. One, the range probably should have had a minimum age requirement (like amusement park rides). The business was specifically designed to let people shoot firearms that are difficult to obtain. Who was responsible for the minor at that point, the parents or the range owners? If the minor was in considered in temporary care of the range owner, then the range owner should be held responsible. If the parents signed something saying they are liable for any damages, they are responsible and should have been charged with negligence or neglectful supervision at least (in my opinion).
Comments
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
He should be charged…
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Baldwin was handed the gun with the announcement "cold gun", which most likely he has had happen hundreds of times in the past, no way he should/would have thought it contained live ammunition.
The last thing anyone should ever do is assume any real firearm is not loaded with real bullets.
As long as real guns are used, everyone who touches it should know basic gun safety. It’s a whole lot easier than gaining 50lbs of muscle for a movie role that is often expected without a second thought.
I agree, no live rounds should be allowed on a set. I heard several reports that the crew was using the “prop” guns as target practice during down time. Seems like someone left a live round in it and was never checked by the several people who handled it and were in charge. I don’t think it was a set up, just gross negligence of those in charge.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Why is Alec Baldwin any different than the thousands that came before him since 1990, when the last death from a gun occurred on a movie set? But I bet those movie sets do make changes and it’ll be another 20 years before it happens again while outside in ‘Murica, it’ll probably happen tomorrow and nothing will change.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
I had to take a “Hunter’s Safety” class before hunting and am supposed to keep the certification card on me any time I’m hunting, so maybe actors should be required to take a “Actor Safety” class before using a gun on set?
As mace pointed out, they have plenty of time to work on their appearance, they have a few hours to spare on a safety class.
OSHA should require it…
The hypocrisy from the gun control crowd here is astounding…
Of course there is a difference.
similar to a parent leaving a weapon just laying around accessable. they arent geld accountable when a child finds and fires said weapon. killing or injuring others. THEN its an accident.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14