Afghanistan

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

The Juggler said:

37,000 evacuated in 8 days with no US casualties so far. 

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

cincybearcat said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

The more I look into this the more I believe the Biden administration was just severely handcuffed by the Trump administration's surrender to the Taliban last year. Agreeing to withdraw our troops with no contingencies and then releasing 5,000 Taliban soldiers last year, along with Pompeo meeting with the same guys who are now set to run the country (elevating their status)--not to mention wanting them to visit Camp David on the 9/11 anniversary, was pretty much the writing on the wall for the Afghan military. Biden admin clearly could've handled this better but it was a lose-lose proposition for them. 

The only thing with that is, trump had a lot of policies and things that Biden immediately undid.  And trump had immediately undone things when he took office.  Ultimately, Joe wanted the troops out too.  The failure seems to be in not realizing what would happen in 72 hours.  And not being ready to shift plans when it ultimately did happen.  

The Juggler said:

cincybearcat said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

The more I look into this the more I believe the Biden administration was just severely handcuffed by the Trump administration's surrender to the Taliban last year. Agreeing to withdraw our troops with no contingencies and then releasing 5,000 Taliban soldiers last year, along with Pompeo meeting with the same guys who are now set to run the country (elevating their status)--not to mention wanting them to visit Camp David on the 9/11 anniversary, was pretty much the writing on the wall for the Afghan military. Biden admin clearly could've handled this better but it was a lose-lose proposition for them. 

The only thing with that is, trump had a lot of policies and things that Biden immediately undid.  And trump had immediately undone things when he took office.  Ultimately, Joe wanted the troops out too.  The failure seems to be in not realizing what would happen in 72 hours.  And not being ready to shift plans when it ultimately did happen.  

Yeah I understand all that. My thinking though, is if we had already agreed to leave with no conditions by a certain point and they already released those 5,000 Taliban dudes last year...backing out of that deal would likely have meant new fighting/war with the Taliban again and that would've been horrible too after 20 years. 

Personally, I would have never made the deal Trump made last year. I still don't see the harm in keeping a small amount of troops there moving forward. 

Agree with the initial 72 hour thing. But I also think not having the Trump administration help them much at all in the transition and then being handed a covid catastrophe to deal with right off the bat probably lead to some of that unpreparedness maybe. 

mickeyrat said:

Dan Rather via substack....

https://steady.substack.com/p/in-the-middle-of-history-6cf

very good read.

Bentleyspop said:

The Juggler said:

cincybearcat said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

The more I look into this the more I believe the Biden administration was just severely handcuffed by the Trump administration's surrender to the Taliban last year. Agreeing to withdraw our troops with no contingencies and then releasing 5,000 Taliban soldiers last year, along with Pompeo meeting with the same guys who are now set to run the country (elevating their status)--not to mention wanting them to visit Camp David on the 9/11 anniversary, was pretty much the writing on the wall for the Afghan military. Biden admin clearly could've handled this better but it was a lose-lose proposition for them. 

The only thing with that is, trump had a lot of policies and things that Biden immediately undid.  And trump had immediately undone things when he took office.  Ultimately, Joe wanted the troops out too.  The failure seems to be in not realizing what would happen in 72 hours.  And not being ready to shift plans when it ultimately did happen.  

Yeah I understand all that. My thinking though, is if we had already agreed to leave with no conditions by a certain point and they already released those 5,000 Taliban dudes last year...backing out of that deal would likely have meant new fighting/war with the Taliban again and that would've been horrible too after 20 years. 

Personally, I would have never made the deal Trump made last year. I still don't see the harm in keeping a small amount of troops there moving forward. 

Agree with the initial 72 hour thing. But I also think not having the Trump administration help them much at all in the transition and then being handed a covid catastrophe to deal with right off the bat probably lead to some of that unpreparedness maybe. 

This is all true.
But if anyone at anytime thought for one moment that the U.S. had won, was winning, or was going to win in Afghanistan they were sorely mistaken and completely unaware of what Afghanistan has always been. A country run by feudal chieftains,  patronage. and family hierarchy. For centuries. 

Did we do the right thing by going in after Al-Qaeda?
Yup.
Should we have been there this long? Nope
Did we help the Afghanistan people? More than we hurt?(I know this is debatable) Yes.

To put ALL the blame on Joe Biden and his administration is politically driven and completely ignorant of the situation and what was left for them.

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.