Meanwhile back in Israel
Comments
-
israel is basically a rogue nation at this point. the international community is against their military actions but are unable to force them to stop the attacks and stop the escalations.
and here we are, the us, giving them billions of dollars in military equipment a year to not only allow them to do so, but we seemingly encourage it."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Neither party negotiates in good faith.gimmesometruth27 said:israel is basically a rogue nation at this point. the international community is against their military actions but are unable to force them to stop the attacks and stop the escalations.
and here we are, the us, giving them billions of dollars in military equipment a year to not only allow them to do so, but we seemingly encourage it.0 -
2019's IDF military budget was around $20B, and the US provided $3.8B that year, and an $8B in loan guarantees. That's a pretty material contribution.mrussel1 said:
Your last statement is true if Israel is dependent on our aid. I have no idea if that's the case or not. I would be good with conditional support. Something has to change.benjs said:
I feel the military support should be made conditional over the next few years, and should be contingent on demonstrable attempts to stabilize the region and not act in antagonistic ways like seizing additional settlement land.mrussel1 said:
If this is a budget argument, that's fine. But it isn't in my mind. And the Jewish community is large and powerful in the US so I don't see that stopping. The fact that we're sending them money is the least of my concerns, honestly.mickeyrat said:mrussel1 said:
I'm not even sure I agree with that. When Isreal tries to take more settlements, that is infuriating. But at the same time, the Iron Dome is needed to protect themselves from the rocket attacks. When those come, they are not precise or strategic. Whereas Palestine deliberately hides its artillery in residential areas, hospitals, etc.gimmesometruth27 said:
i saw an article/editorial last night from nbc finally saying we need to stop giving israel the $3.8 billion a year in military aid. the comments section was worse than the comments sections from my local newspapers and local tv news stations.mrussel1 said:This conflict is a series of small skirmishes that have escalated. Add in that Iran is pulling strings behind the scenes as payback for the series of recent Israeli strikes AND internal Palestinian political upheaval. Remember Abbas just canceled elections again, as a political attack against Hamas. Abbas is now in year 16 of a four year term.
There is no good guy and bad guy in this conflict. It's all so sad.
the lack of basic knowledge on this topic is really sad.
I know the 'both sides" is a joke but in this care, there is blame to be shared.
then they have the means to pay for it. their gdp was/is in double digits?
Until power is threatened, power isn't ceded, and as such, Israel has no incentive to even seek peace as things stand.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0
-
israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe.gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.0 -
the hamas attacks are in response to the land theft and settlement expansion. those attacks are a symtom and a result of the underlying issue, that crime is being committed in order for israel to expand.Drowned Out said:
This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe.gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
clearly israel has the right to defend itself by going on offense with overwhelming force, while the palestinians are condemned no matter what they do.
the international community is powerless and unwilling to act on behalf of the the palestinians. any time a world leader speaks out in defense of the palestinians they get called anti semitic and terrorist sympathizers. it happened to me on this board last night.
the propaganda arm of the israeli government is stronger than any i have ever known."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
So when are you going to return your land back to the peoples of the 1st nations? America and Canada are the last 2 countries that should be pointing fingers... this not just a left/right issue. Governments of both liberal or right pretty much support the same policies...gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
Not to mention the last 20 years of bullshit war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the bullshit proxy war that the US supports in Yemen...all in the name of getting terrorists?Give Peas A Chance…0 -
This isn't completely true. Iran absolutely orchestrates attacks as a proxy for their interests.gimmesometruth27 said:
the hamas attacks are in response to the land theft and settlement expansion. those attacks are a symtom and a result of the underlying issue, that crime is being committed in order for israel to expand.Drowned Out said:
This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe.gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
clearly israel has the right to defend itself by going on offense with overwhelming force, while the palestinians are condemned no matter what they do.
the international community is powerless and unwilling to act on behalf of the the palestinians. any time a world leader speaks out in defense of the palestinians they get called anti semitic and terrorist sympathizers. it happened to me on this board last night.
the propaganda arm of the israeli government is stronger than any i have ever known.0 -
So you're saying Palestine authority and Hamas are completely in the right every single time? You're arguing there would be peace if there were no settlement expansions? I don't think that's true at all.Drowned Out said:
This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe.gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.0 -
yeah because i am personally responsible for the atrocities that were committed in early american history, as well as the war on turr. am i out there stealing land now? fuck no.Meltdown99 said:
So when are you going to return your land back to the peoples of the 1st nations? America and Canada are the last 2 countries that should be pointing fingers... this not just a left/right issue. Governments of both liberal or right pretty much support the same policies...gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
Not to mention the last 20 years of bullshit war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the bullshit proxy war that the US supports in Yemen...all in the name of getting terrorists?
where i live was purchased from the french in 1803. you want to blame someone, blame the colonizers that came here and started all of that.
if you were around this board in the early 2000s you would have read my posts about the anti war protests i was involved with.
we as protestors got squashed and gassed by the cops on the order of the government. what do you want me to do? like we were really going to take the streets and stop a fucking war or something.
Post edited by gimmesometruth27 on"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
and we as americans support israel because we are looking out for own interests in the middle east. if israel is defeated we lose our foothold and our influence in the region.mrussel1 said:
This isn't completely true. Iran absolutely orchestrates attacks as a proxy for their interests.gimmesometruth27 said:
the hamas attacks are in response to the land theft and settlement expansion. those attacks are a symtom and a result of the underlying issue, that crime is being committed in order for israel to expand.Drowned Out said:
This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe.gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
clearly israel has the right to defend itself by going on offense with overwhelming force, while the palestinians are condemned no matter what they do.
the international community is powerless and unwilling to act on behalf of the the palestinians. any time a world leader speaks out in defense of the palestinians they get called anti semitic and terrorist sympathizers. it happened to me on this board last night.
the propaganda arm of the israeli government is stronger than any i have ever known.
the us has veto power at the un and we use it to veto anything critical of israel. almost 100% of the time."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Isreal being defeated has much broader consequences than just a foothold in the ME. It's hard for us to comprehend 2 millenia of pograms and genocide.gimmesometruth27 said:
and we as americans support israel because we are looking out for own interests in the middle east. if israel is defeated we lose our foothold and our influence in the region.mrussel1 said:
This isn't completely true. Iran absolutely orchestrates attacks as a proxy for their interests.gimmesometruth27 said:
the hamas attacks are in response to the land theft and settlement expansion. those attacks are a symtom and a result of the underlying issue, that crime is being committed in order for israel to expand.Drowned Out said:
This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe.gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
clearly israel has the right to defend itself by going on offense with overwhelming force, while the palestinians are condemned no matter what they do.
the international community is powerless and unwilling to act on behalf of the the palestinians. any time a world leader speaks out in defense of the palestinians they get called anti semitic and terrorist sympathizers. it happened to me on this board last night.
the propaganda arm of the israeli government is stronger than any i have ever known.
the us has veto power at the un and we use it to veto anything critical of israel. almost 100% of the time.0 -
lets recap this a bit.religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.it grew from there._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
"For some reason"... that's the real key isn't it? I'm not sure what set off the brawl with Israeli police but I do know that that evening 450 rockets were launched from Gaza into heavily populated parts of Isreal. Is that a proportionate response? It does not seem like it to me.mickeyrat said:lets recap this a bit.religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.it grew from there.0 -
My statement stands. You are just full of excuse. You arehere now? 1st nations problems have not gone away. And, they are likely still losing land in the US…give them the Grand Canyon back. … how bout all national parks. Let them keep the money from those parks… I feel the same here in Canada.gimmesometruth27 said:
yeah because i am personally responsible for the atrocities that were committed in early american history, as well as the war on turr. am i out there stealing land now? fuck no.Meltdown99 said:
So when are you going to return your land back to the peoples of the 1st nations? America and Canada are the last 2 countries that should be pointing fingers... this not just a left/right issue. Governments of both liberal or right pretty much support the same policies...gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
Not to mention the last 20 years of bullshit war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the bullshit proxy war that the US supports in Yemen...all in the name of getting terrorists?
where i live was purchased from the french in 1803. you want to blame someone, blame the colonizers that came here and started all of that.
if you were around this board in the early 2000s you would have read my posts about the anti war protests i was involved with.
we as protestors got squashed and gassed by the cops on the order of the government. what do you want me to do? like we were really going to take the streets and stop a fucking war or something.
of course if unrealistic to give our homes and lands back fully…does not mean can not give them back crown land and let them self govern themselves. The point being the US and Canada need to come to terms with their past land thefts and murderous ways..
Does not matter where the land was purchased, it’s still stolen.
and all those treaties were bullshit considering First Nations people did not understand why they were signing…
Give Peas A Chance…0 -
While that may have been the spark, this article lays out what has been going on on the ground in East Jerusalem and what the hypocritical Israeli Zionist position has been and continues to be. It’s not reported on and Israeli government leaders continue the myth and promote the hypocrisy, and become indignant when challenged, as I witnessed the deputy foreign minister interviewed on MSNBC.mickeyrat said:lets recap this a bit.religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.it grew from there.
Its a long, detailed read and illustrates the Imbalance of power and the utter hopelessness of the Palestinian position. And yea, poor Israel (I’ve got news for you, nuclear powers don’t “go away”).This is just a smattering of what is happening, never mind the seizure through condemnation and the illegal settlement movement. What would you do in these situations as described?
https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
mrussel1 said:
"For some reason"... that's the real key isn't it? I'm not sure what set off the brawl with Israeli police but I do know that that evening 450 rockets were launched from Gaza into heavily populated parts of Isreal. Is that a proportionate response? It does not seem like it to me.mickeyrat said:lets recap this a bit.religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.it grew from there.proportinate response. got it...
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/25/us/indigenous-people-reclaiming-their-lands-trnd/index.htmlgimmesometruth27 said:
yeah because i am personally responsible for the atrocities that were committed in early american history, as well as the war on turr. am i out there stealing land now? fuck no.Meltdown99 said:
So when are you going to return your land back to the peoples of the 1st nations? America and Canada are the last 2 countries that should be pointing fingers... this not just a left/right issue. Governments of both liberal or right pretty much support the same policies...gimmesometruth27 said:israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
Not to mention the last 20 years of bullshit war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the bullshit proxy war that the US supports in Yemen...all in the name of getting terrorists?
where i live was purchased from the french in 1803. you want to blame someone, blame the colonizers that came here and started all of that.
if you were around this board in the early 2000s you would have read my posts about the anti war protests i was involved with.
we as protestors got squashed and gassed by the cops on the order of the government. what do you want me to do? like we were really going to take the streets and stop a fucking war or something.Indigenous people across the US want their land back -- and the movement is gaining momentum
Yup. Strictly a problem that needs to be dealt with by the colonizer? That us…
Give Peas A Chance…0 -
"Palestinians do not give separate figures for militants and civilians. Israel does."mickeyrat said:mrussel1 said:
"For some reason"... that's the real key isn't it? I'm not sure what set off the brawl with Israeli police but I do know that that evening 450 rockets were launched from Gaza into heavily populated parts of Isreal. Is that a proportionate response? It does not seem like it to me.mickeyrat said:lets recap this a bit.religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.it grew from there.proportinate response. got it...0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 148.8K Pearl Jam's Music and Activism
- 110K The Porch
- 274 Vitalogy
- 35K Given To Fly (live)
- 3.5K Words and Music...Communication
- 39.1K Flea Market
- 39.1K Lost Dogs
- 58.7K Not Pearl Jam's Music
- 10.6K Musicians and Gearheads
- 29.1K Other Music
- 17.8K Poetry, Prose, Music & Art
- 1.1K The Art Wall
- 56.8K Non-Pearl Jam Discussion
- 22.2K A Moving Train
- 31.7K All Encompassing Trip
- 2.9K Technical Stuff and Help