$15 minimum wage

mrussel1 said:

Hobbes said:

Curious if there are small business owners in the mix here that would care to chime in and offer their perspective.

We actually debated this theory of "if you can't pay a living wage don't start a business!" argument a few pages back.  It falls on its face very quickly. 

cincybearcat said:

static111 said:

https://twitter.com/revdrbarber/status/1368267819817766917?s=21

People bitching about Trump and republicans and “words matter”... this tweet just shows people haven’t learned a damn thing. Calling people who don’t want $15 min wage in a fucking covid relief Bill are “extremists”.

static111 said:

cincybearcat said:

static111 said:

https://twitter.com/revdrbarber/status/1368267819817766917?s=21

People bitching about Trump and republicans and “words matter”... this tweet just shows people haven’t learned a damn thing. Calling people who don’t want $15 min wage in a fucking covid relief Bill are “extremists”.

Senate republicans aren’t extremists?

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

Here is a FUCKING novel idea...pay your employees a liveable wage and charge the appropriate amount to the customers...fucking cheap ass business owners...if you can not pay liveable wages maybe you shouldn’t be a business owner...

1. Large organizations have massive economies of scale, meaning the cost of production or product acquisition is typically greater to a small business
2. Large organizations don't have the all-at-once overhead of launching a new business without a steady revenue stream
3. The workforce will determine whether the wages offered were reasonable or not. If there's still a vacancy in a job posting after enough time, it's not meeting the short-term requirements for the job market. If the position has high turnover, it's likely not meeting the long-term requirements. In either case, the business's results will determine whether the move was right or wrong
4. At the time when a business is conceptualized, they rarely have the means to execute on their vision without compromise, and sometimes without helping hands, it can never materialize (aka the idea dies outright)
5. Profit sharing and other creative business structures can help mitigate these small business realities

these points ignore the fact the US minimum wage has been held artificially low for decades. If it were increased ONLY on an inflation  basis the past 50 years, it’d be over $20 an hour now.

further, the US has had a massive crackdown against worker rights during this time period.

the combination of these two forces has limited the workers ability to have ANY ability to impact how wages are “determined” at the low end of the pay scale.

so keeping wages artificially low, far below the historical inflation adjusted value has enabled small business owners to enter the economy when in fact they should not have been able to afford it, based on the historical cost to operate a small business.

In the US, what this means is taxpayers will have to foot the bill by paying for housing and food assistance for employees earning below poverty level wages from small business owners.

it is time to ensure all wages are paid at or above the poverty level, and stop the practice of paying welfare to small business owners by allowing them to stay in business by subsidizing their workforce, when by all measures they should not be in business if they are paying poverty level wages.

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

Here is a FUCKING novel idea...pay your employees a liveable wage and charge the appropriate amount to the customers...fucking cheap ass business owners...if you can not pay liveable wages maybe you shouldn’t be a business owner...

1. Large organizations have massive economies of scale, meaning the cost of production or product acquisition is typically greater to a small business
2. Large organizations don't have the all-at-once overhead of launching a new business without a steady revenue stream
3. The workforce will determine whether the wages offered were reasonable or not. If there's still a vacancy in a job posting after enough time, it's not meeting the short-term requirements for the job market. If the position has high turnover, it's likely not meeting the long-term requirements. In either case, the business's results will determine whether the move was right or wrong
4. At the time when a business is conceptualized, they rarely have the means to execute on their vision without compromise, and sometimes without helping hands, it can never materialize (aka the idea dies outright)
5. Profit sharing and other creative business structures can help mitigate these small business realities

these points ignore the fact the US minimum wage has been held artificially low for decades. If it were increased ONLY on an inflation  basis the past 50 years, it’d be over $20 an hour now.

further, the US has had a massive crackdown against worker rights during this time period.

the combination of these two forces has limited the workers ability to have ANY ability to impact how wages are “determined” at the low end of the pay scale.

so keeping wages artificially low, far below the historical inflation adjusted value has enabled small business owners to enter the economy when in fact they should not have been able to afford it, based on the historical cost to operate a small business.

In the US, what this means is taxpayers will have to foot the bill by paying for housing and food assistance for employees earning below poverty level wages from small business owners.

it is time to ensure all wages are paid at or above the poverty level, and stop the practice of paying welfare to small business owners by allowing them to stay in business by subsidizing their workforce, when by all measures they should not be in business if they are paying poverty level wages.

That's a different argument.  You're arguing for a higher min wage.  Meltdown said that if a business can't pay a LIVING wage,  it should not open.  A living wage is a completely subjective number tied to cost of living in an area,  family size, debt load,  etc. The statement puts the onus on a business owner to figure out what that number is.  That's a dead end argument. 

But I thought  the argument was it’s too difficult to figure out because $15 in DC is not the same as $15 in rural America, which I agree with.

The bottom line is minimum wages should be indexed to inflation and productivity, which has not occurred for the last half century. Skilled workers are protected by their skills in the the job market, to some extent. Minimum wage workers are not, and the taxpayers have to foot the bill by supplementing housing and food assistance. It should not even be a political debate, just keep it simple and automatically index minimum wages by inflation. If sales are going up with inflation, so should wages. Or we could complicate it by keeping it below like we have and  send the section 8 and SNAP bills directly to employers paying wages below the poverty level.

tempo_n_groove said:

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

Here is a FUCKING novel idea...pay your employees a liveable wage and charge the appropriate amount to the customers...fucking cheap ass business owners...if you can not pay liveable wages maybe you shouldn’t be a business owner...

1. Large organizations have massive economies of scale, meaning the cost of production or product acquisition is typically greater to a small business
2. Large organizations don't have the all-at-once overhead of launching a new business without a steady revenue stream
3. The workforce will determine whether the wages offered were reasonable or not. If there's still a vacancy in a job posting after enough time, it's not meeting the short-term requirements for the job market. If the position has high turnover, it's likely not meeting the long-term requirements. In either case, the business's results will determine whether the move was right or wrong
4. At the time when a business is conceptualized, they rarely have the means to execute on their vision without compromise, and sometimes without helping hands, it can never materialize (aka the idea dies outright)
5. Profit sharing and other creative business structures can help mitigate these small business realities

these points ignore the fact the US minimum wage has been held artificially low for decades. If it were increased ONLY on an inflation  basis the past 50 years, it’d be over $20 an hour now.

further, the US has had a massive crackdown against worker rights during this time period.

the combination of these two forces has limited the workers ability to have ANY ability to impact how wages are “determined” at the low end of the pay scale.

so keeping wages artificially low, far below the historical inflation adjusted value has enabled small business owners to enter the economy when in fact they should not have been able to afford it, based on the historical cost to operate a small business.

In the US, what this means is taxpayers will have to foot the bill by paying for housing and food assistance for employees earning below poverty level wages from small business owners.

it is time to ensure all wages are paid at or above the poverty level, and stop the practice of paying welfare to small business owners by allowing them to stay in business by subsidizing their workforce, when by all measures they should not be in business if they are paying poverty level wages.

I think they said it would be $9 an hour with inflation?

Here is something else to throw in the mix.  All of the military would get a raise.  That's a lot of extra money the government will be paying out to servicemen.

mickeyrat said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Lerxst1992 said:

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

Here is a FUCKING novel idea...pay your employees a liveable wage and charge the appropriate amount to the customers...fucking cheap ass business owners...if you can not pay liveable wages maybe you shouldn’t be a business owner...

1. Large organizations have massive economies of scale, meaning the cost of production or product acquisition is typically greater to a small business
2. Large organizations don't have the all-at-once overhead of launching a new business without a steady revenue stream
3. The workforce will determine whether the wages offered were reasonable or not. If there's still a vacancy in a job posting after enough time, it's not meeting the short-term requirements for the job market. If the position has high turnover, it's likely not meeting the long-term requirements. In either case, the business's results will determine whether the move was right or wrong
4. At the time when a business is conceptualized, they rarely have the means to execute on their vision without compromise, and sometimes without helping hands, it can never materialize (aka the idea dies outright)
5. Profit sharing and other creative business structures can help mitigate these small business realities

these points ignore the fact the US minimum wage has been held artificially low for decades. If it were increased ONLY on an inflation  basis the past 50 years, it’d be over $20 an hour now.

further, the US has had a massive crackdown against worker rights during this time period.

the combination of these two forces has limited the workers ability to have ANY ability to impact how wages are “determined” at the low end of the pay scale.

so keeping wages artificially low, far below the historical inflation adjusted value has enabled small business owners to enter the economy when in fact they should not have been able to afford it, based on the historical cost to operate a small business.

In the US, what this means is taxpayers will have to foot the bill by paying for housing and food assistance for employees earning below poverty level wages from small business owners.

it is time to ensure all wages are paid at or above the poverty level, and stop the practice of paying welfare to small business owners by allowing them to stay in business by subsidizing their workforce, when by all measures they should not be in business if they are paying poverty level wages.

I think they said it would be $9 an hour with inflation?

Here is something else to throw in the mix.  All of the military would get a raise.  That's a lot of extra money the government will be paying out to servicemen.

Really? I just assumed they were on a salary. 

they are. $x per month. bennies out the ass.