$15 minimum wage
Comments
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I think this is an interesting point and one that a lot of people never even consider. In most cases, a small business often starts with family or friends doing the heavy lift to get it going, but in order to ease the load and handle the day-to-day transactional operations, they hire someone they don't have to pay a lot in order to keep revenue margins high. It's a fine line for sure because you may end up sinking before you learn to swim. Might be hard to do in a restaurant or other service industry setting where you need a pretty solid sized starting staff in order to get up and running.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...It's a hopeless situation...0 -
Why start big? If it still holds true that more than half of restaurants opened shutter within the first year, perhaps people thinking about opening a restaurant should start with a small catering business or food truck first to see if their concept is a welcome addition to the marketplace.tbergs said:
I think this is an interesting point and one that a lot of people never even consider. In most cases, a small business often starts with family or friends doing the heavy lift to get it going, but in order to ease the load and handle the day-to-day transactional operations, they hire someone they don't have to pay a lot in order to keep revenue margins high. It's a fine line for sure because you may end up sinking before you learn to swim. Might be hard to do in a restaurant or other service industry setting where you need a pretty solid sized starting staff in order to get up and running.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
I SAW PEARL JAM0 -
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
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Minimum wage seems like a good idea, but just saying that there are alternative "systems" that work resonable well:
In Sweden, there is no statutory minimum wage, but instead wages are established through "collective agreements" between the labour markets partners, meaning: employers and trade unions, without direct state intervention. Common terms for this is "starting salary" or "base salary." The collective agreements are voluntary, which is why their lowest mark is only the minimum wage within the companies that have chosen to join the collective agreements. Thus, there is no minimum wage in Sweden, and the wage is a completely unregulated agreement between employees and employers.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I SAW PEARL JAM0 -
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.0 -
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.
I SAW PEARL JAM0 -
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.0 -
In what markets is $15 an hour considered a live-able wage? Definitely not near me or you.mrussel1 said:
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.
I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
The rural area of MN could probably still get by on that. Wouldn't be great, but liveable. I'd imagine many of the rural counties of the flyover states would be able to get by.mcgruff10 said:
In what markets is $15 an hour considered a live-able wage? Definitely not near me or you.mrussel1 said:
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.It's a hopeless situation...0 -
Rural areas. If you are single and have no kids, then maybe then too. It's all situational.mcgruff10 said:
In what markets is $15 an hour considered a live-able wage? Definitely not near me or you.mrussel1 said:
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.0 -
Can those rural areas afford to pay someone $15 an hour? I just don't see it.mrussel1 said:
Rural areas. If you are single and have no kids, then maybe then too. It's all situational.mcgruff10 said:
In what markets is $15 an hour considered a live-able wage? Definitely not near me or you.mrussel1 said:
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
Well I don’t know. I think it depends on a bunch of factors including the demand and skill of the particular position.mcgruff10 said:
Can those rural areas afford to pay someone $15 an hour? I just don't see it.mrussel1 said:
Rural areas. If you are single and have no kids, then maybe then too. It's all situational.mcgruff10 said:
In what markets is $15 an hour considered a live-able wage? Definitely not near me or you.mrussel1 said:
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.
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Well if you triple minimum wage I’m guessing a very large portion of small businesses can’t afford that. So they close. Fewer jobs, more unemployment. Less tax income to support that. $20 an hour is a lot of money to expect every small business to pay. Maybe telling people to not start a business if they can’t pay workers $160 a day isn’t the right approach.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...0 -
So what’s a livable wage? What a 25 year old single guy can live on, or what a single mom of 2 needs? Seems like paying everyone as if they are a single mom of 2 without a second income from a second parent or child support of any kind, whether they are or not, is asking for ridiculous inflation.mrussel1 said:
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.0 -
I'm not the one arguing that businesses should not open unless they pay a livable wage, hence my snark about a financial interrogatory to determine individual situations. I believe in the fed wage, and then market driven after that. I've been forced to modify salaries many times for job roles depending on the location, the unemployment rate, the changing skill sets, etc. I can pay a SQL developer less in SW Florida than I can here in Richmond because the demand is greater here. At the same time, keeping developers has become much more expensive over the past ten years compared to say.. a Lean project manager, whose skills are a little out of vogue right now. The same goes for entry level positions. I have to pay more in VA for the same thing as in Florida. And when unemployment was super low, starting salaries went up. And now, I've had probably five people leave since the pandemic started, completely flipped.mace1229 said:
So what’s a livable wage? What a 25 year old single guy can live on, or what a single mom of 2 needs? Seems like paying everyone as if they are a single mom of 2 without a second income from a second parent or child support of any kind, whether they are or not, is asking for ridiculous inflation.mrussel1 said:
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.0 -
I didn't mean to imply you were advocating for shutting small businesses down for not being able to afford $20/hr. But that was a real question, not for you but for anyone. It's been referenced several times that a single mom can't like on a specific wage. So what do we deem a livable wage, and therefore create a minimum wage? Is it a kid just out of high school? Just out of college? Or a single mom of 2 kids? They all require a different amount to live.mrussel1 said:
I'm not the one arguing that businesses should not open unless they pay a livable wage, hence my snark about a financial interrogatory to determine individual situations. I believe in the fed wage, and then market driven after that. I've been forced to modify salaries many times for job roles depending on the location, the unemployment rate, the changing skill sets, etc. I can pay a SQL developer less in SW Florida than I can here in Richmond because the demand is greater here. At the same time, keeping developers has become much more expensive over the past ten years compared to say.. a Lean project manager, whose skills are a little out of vogue right now. The same goes for entry level positions. I have to pay more in VA for the same thing as in Florida. And when unemployment was super low, starting salaries went up. And now, I've had probably five people leave since the pandemic started, completely flipped.mace1229 said:
So what’s a livable wage? What a 25 year old single guy can live on, or what a single mom of 2 needs? Seems like paying everyone as if they are a single mom of 2 without a second income from a second parent or child support of any kind, whether they are or not, is asking for ridiculous inflation.mrussel1 said:
Don't be a simpleton. You said businesses should not open unless they pay a living wage, not that they meet federal minimum wage. I would argue in certain markets $15 is not living for a family of 2+. In other markets, it is.dankind said:
See thread title.mrussel1 said:
A little common sense eh? This argument is not about the federal minimum, you argued that if you can't pay living, don't open the business. What if the person has a gainfully employed spouse and this is just some retirement/spending/leisure cash? Maybe the mandatory interrogatory would flush that out.dankind said:
I worked on Wall Street for 10 years, so I've heard the above bolded blind spot quite often. While many Wall Streeters may have earned their minimum wage badge in such a situation, the majority of minimum wage applicants have very little choice in the matter. In this nation, some are born impoverished, some achieve poverty, and some have poverty thrust upon them. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour goes a little way toward eradicating that last one. I'm all for municipalities raising their own minimum wages by vote or committee, just as they do with sales taxes in some municipalities.mrussel1 said:
This is confusing. Why is it up to the business to determine if they are paying a living wage? Isn't it up to the applicant to make that decision based on their personal situation? A business is designed to pay the rate where supply equals demand so long as the amount is over the minimum wage. Maybe the business should do a financial review of the applicants situation and determine whether the applicant should even take the job for the rate. And if the business decides...no, this isn't a living wage for the person, then it would be morally reprehensible to offer the job to the applicant.dankind said:
Maybe don't start a business in which you'll need hired help if you cannot then pay the person you hired a living wage?mace1229 said:
You think many small businesses can afford $20 an hour?Meltdown99 said:15 minimum wage? This is a joke, correct? Minimum wage should be 20 and all employers should have a health tax placed on them that allows the government to citizens basic healthcare, including dental, drugs, eye cart, physio chiro, etc...this includes Canada...
And to answer your question: Assuming that both the small business employer and applicant live within roughly the same region as the physical place of business (shop, office, etc.), then one could likely take it on good faith that the employer knows the region and the relative economic situations of the municipalities within the region. In other words, a little empathy and some common fucking sense. If lacking in either, one should not open/run a small business.
I'm sorry, your argument is bizarre. A business owner should not take skill, scarcity, demand or even the federal minimum wage into account when opening as business. They have some amorphous obligation to determine what the "livable wage" is in their area before opening a business. Because it would be better for a potential business owner to NOT open a business at $10 per hour and have ZERO employees and pay no one a wage, than to pay something less than what you believe is a living wage for that person....whatever you think that number is.
I didn't realize I needed to wear my uniform today, working from home and all.
It doesn't make sense to me to calculate what a single mom needs and base the minimum wage off that, thus inflating the marking. It makes more sense to me to base a livable wage off what a single person needs. And as a government have better programs to support single moms, or be harsher on deadbeat dads about paying child support. Or even better, programs to offer training to help get a better job and off support. Some programs like that already exist.
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If the minimum wage is raised to $15, what happens to those who were already earing $15/hour based on their skills, as opposed to a government mandate. Will these people opt for easier jobs since they can earn $15/hour no matter what, or will they demand a higher wage as to differentiate themselves from an unskilled worker who now earns the same as them?
I would rather see people increase their take-home pay as a result of a higher upper limit of the lowest Federal tax bracket.Post edited by JOEJOEJOE on0 -
Wayyyy back in the day for $4.75 minimum wage I was making 5.25 and it jumped to 5.25. I got screwed.JOEJOEJOE said:If the minimum wage is raised to $15, what happens to those who were already earing $15/hour based on their skills, as opposed to a government mandate. Will these people opt for easier jobs since they can earn $15/hour no matter what, or will they demand a higher wage as to differentiate themselves from an unskilled worker who now earns the same as them?
I would rather see people increase their take-home pay as a result of a higher upper limit of the lowest Federal tax bracket.
This was in Alaska at the time where it was higher than federal. I was pissed.0 -
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