So maybe we are just confusing a few things. 1) The US really messed this up by not having national standards and not enforcing standards and generally individuals not following proper protocol.
2) Separate from that - there seem to be a lot of data to show how to operate in a safe manner in this environment.
My question remains - for those that were pissed off at trump and the US response to ignore science...do you know want to follow the science which talks about open schools, opening businesses, how outdoor activities are safe (distancing the key), etc now? And if not, why?
I'm not really your target audience here because I do want to listen to the science (as I've gleefully pointed out, I don't have to worry about the school stuff). I spent March-November biking/running outslide along the Mississippi River and it was not free of others by a long shot. I actually did put my mask over my chin and would pull it up when I got near people but most did not do any such thing. I also did some outdoor brewery sessions. I appreciated those that would schedule appointments for set lengths of time to limit bunching of people.
All that said, I can take a shot at where some are coming from. Anything aside from staying home has some risk. And it's difficult to draw a line for where "you can't live like a shut-in" vs. "that's just not safe." And I think if the US and its population had been more risk-averse, we'd be in far better position right now. (Of course, if we'd stop being babies and start understanding the value of masks and distancing, we might be able to feel better about doing stuff, too...)
The science is about mitigating, not eliminating, danger. I say this with no commentary about where we should draw that line (since I have no idea where that is).
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If the schools are safe to open...so are small business and gyms..
Even though schools are not that safe. They are just a babysitting service anymore...
Can be and have proven to be pretty damn safe when the protocols are used. But you continue to ignore it
I am not ignoring nothing...I work in schools, you know when they are full of children. Explain how 27 kids plus a teacher having lunch in the same room with very poor ventilation is safer than me having breakfast with my Dad in a restaurant...it’s not. I love government logic.
Schools were not designed for social distancing...
By the way many teachers and support know the kids usually are asymptomatic but the can be little spreaders.
schools are a baby sitting service more than anything these day. Teachers say that, my sister who is a teacher says that all the time..
WhT I am ignoring is a bunch of dumb politicians who are deliberately deceiving school board staff...
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this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 30,617
Back on some positive news. UK just had a major announcement and I hope NA follows suit with a similar positive announcement. This is how you roll out how to reopen. Not the trickles of negative news we have been getting the last couple of months even with vaccines rolling out and numbers dropping off.
That’s interesting. Many areas in the US have been allowing outdoor sports and places like zoos to be open for a while now. We actually went to our local zoo over this past weekend. Gyms, restaurants, etc have been open for a long time with face mask regulations. Drive in cinemas never closed and was an easy outlet for entertainment during all of this...
I guess all you guys skipped over this part of the comment.
Reading is HARD.
And 500,000 people didn't die from hanging out in their house for a year.
how is this an example of "reading is hard"? outdoor zoos are not the same, obviously, as indoor gyms or dining.
maybe comprehension is hard?
I guess you suffer from both then. Keep your chin up, with HARD work and perseverance I believe you will get a handle on all this complicated stuff. I'm rooting for you.
Yeah all those >55 year olds getting covid at the gym really tipped the scales.
How did those old people get the virus? Or was it just old people getting it and spreading it to old people?
Maybe people under 55 can't spread the virus? Must have missed that scientific paper.
Judging by the responses here I can see why 500,000 have died in a year. Might as well just revert back to "it's just the flu".
So are you not accepting the fact that the vast majority catch it from private gatherings, and not restaurants or outside activities? Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent of all cases.
Do we have facts to support this? 1) That the vast majority catch COVID-10 from private gatherings?
2) Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent(age) of all cases?
It is stated as factual, was curious if we have reference sources on this?
Hey all, remember me?! The "freedumb", clown post guy that gets all his news from twitter. Yep, that's me!
I am really glad a lot of people are getting vaccinated, honest to goodness, I am happy for those who are getting vaccinated and feeling the sense of relief. Be advised though, the vaccine does not make you safe.
A simple question, what is the purpose of the vaccine again?
To quote from the post above:
"My question remains - for those that were pissed off at trump and the US response to ignore science...do you know want to follow the science which talks about open schools, opening businesses, how outdoor activities are safe (distancing the key), etc now? And if not, why?"
This has ALWAYS been about the political science, nothing more. Deep down I think most on this forum would admit that. See the latest tweet from above. Remember when "two weeks to flatten the curve" became "wear one mask and distance, no make that two masks" became "we need the vaccines to return to normal" became "even if you have the vaccines, continue to wear masks and distance"? Because I do.
Headed back In Hiding, continue to live your life all!
Do we have facts to support this? 1) That the vast majority catch COVID-10 from private gatherings?
2) Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent(age) of all cases?
It is stated as factual, was curious if we have reference sources on this?
Sorry, not directed at me but the answer to your questions are below. This from 45,000 data points and the Governor the MSM has said did this thing right. Hell, he even wrote a book on leadership during the pandemic.
If the schools are safe to open...so are small business and gyms..
Even though schools are not that safe. They are just a babysitting service anymore...
Can be and have proven to be pretty damn safe when the protocols are used. But you continue to ignore it
I am not ignoring nothing...I work in schools, you know when they are full of children. Explain how 27 kids plus a teacher having lunch in the same room with very poor ventilation is safer than me having breakfast with my Dad in a restaurant...it’s not. I love government logic.
Schools were not designed for social distancing...
By the way many teachers and support know the kids usually are asymptomatic but the can be little spreaders.
schools are a baby sitting service more than anything these day. Teachers say that, my sister who is a teacher says that all the time..
WhT I am ignoring is a bunch of dumb politicians who are deliberately deceiving school board staff...
@gvn2fly1421 I thought the reason to still socially distance and masking up after getting the vaccine is the worry that you could be a silent spreader still and could be helping in keeping it circulating in your community that the majority has yet to be vaccinated. Unless I missed it there is no data out there that says being vaccinated stops you from being a spreader but does stop you from getting sick enough to be hospitalized or die.
Hearing Fauci say the US will have to keep wearing masks until 2022 is frustrating to see. If makes no sense if the US has herd immunity as they are projecting way before then.
If the schools are safe to open...so are small business and gyms..
Even though schools are not that safe. They are just a babysitting service anymore...
Can be and have proven to be pretty damn safe when the protocols are used. But you continue to ignore it
I am not ignoring nothing...I work in schools, you know when they are full of children. Explain how 27 kids plus a teacher having lunch in the same room with very poor ventilation is safer than me having breakfast with my Dad in a restaurant...it’s not. I love government logic.
Schools were not designed for social distancing...
By the way many teachers and support know the kids usually are asymptomatic but the can be little spreaders.
schools are a baby sitting service more than anything these day. Teachers say that, my sister who is a teacher says that all the time..
WhT I am ignoring is a bunch of dumb politicians who are deliberately deceiving school board staff...
Sounds like your sister needs a new career.
Why? She just retired? But why. Was she not allowed to be concerned? Teachers and support staff have a right to concerned....sorry some of you lost your baby sitting service.
If the schools are safe to open...so are small business and gyms..
Even though schools are not that safe. They are just a babysitting service anymore...
Can be and have proven to be pretty damn safe when the protocols are used. But you continue to ignore it
I am not ignoring nothing...I work in schools, you know when they are full of children. Explain how 27 kids plus a teacher having lunch in the same room with very poor ventilation is safer than me having breakfast with my Dad in a restaurant...it’s not. I love government logic.
Schools were not designed for social distancing...
By the way many teachers and support know the kids usually are asymptomatic but the can be little spreaders.
schools are a baby sitting service more than anything these day. Teachers say that, my sister who is a teacher says that all the time..
WhT I am ignoring is a bunch of dumb politicians who are deliberately deceiving school board staff...
Sounds like your sister needs a new career.
Why? She just retired? But why. Was she not allowed to be concerned? Teachers and support staff have a right to concerned....sorry some of you lost your baby sitting service.
Personally, if I were hired to do one thing for which I trained my entire life up until that point (in this case, educate children) but then discovered that the position was relegated to something a high schooler could do (in this case, babysitting), I would find something else to do with my life -- that is, after agitating for change and failing, of course.
Did she express her concerns to people who could actually make a difference, or did she she gripe to her brother?
If the schools are safe to open...so are small business and gyms..
Even though schools are not that safe. They are just a babysitting service anymore...
Can be and have proven to be pretty damn safe when the protocols are used. But you continue to ignore it
I am not ignoring nothing...I work in schools, you know when they are full of children. Explain how 27 kids plus a teacher having lunch in the same room with very poor ventilation is safer than me having breakfast with my Dad in a restaurant...it’s not. I love government logic.
Schools were not designed for social distancing...
By the way many teachers and support know the kids usually are asymptomatic but the can be little spreaders.
schools are a baby sitting service more than anything these day. Teachers say that, my sister who is a teacher says that all the time..
WhT I am ignoring is a bunch of dumb politicians who are deliberately deceiving school board staff...
Sounds like your sister needs a new career.
Why? She just retired? But why. Was she not allowed to be concerned? Teachers and support staff have a right to concerned....sorry some of you lost your baby sitting service.
My kids go to school to get an education, not to be babysat. When we went into lockdown last year and schools closed I had a babysitter watch my kids but they did not get the education they normally would have if they were in school. Saying teachers are babysitters is a disservice to the hard work that they put in everyday trying to get kids to learn.
Yes we need kids to be looked after if mom and dad are both working. Yes school is free (minus the taxes we pay for it to run) and is the better "babysitting" option if that is how you want to look at it financially. Again though to ignore the importance of the education that is provided is a fault in your argument that is is a baby sitting service.
Back on some positive news. UK just had a major announcement and I hope NA follows suit with a similar positive announcement. This is how you roll out how to reopen. Not the trickles of negative news we have been getting the last couple of months even with vaccines rolling out and numbers dropping off.
That’s interesting. Many areas in the US have been allowing outdoor sports and places like zoos to be open for a while now. We actually went to our local zoo over this past weekend. Gyms, restaurants, etc have been open for a long time with face mask regulations. Drive in cinemas never closed and was an easy outlet for entertainment during all of this...
I guess all you guys skipped over this part of the comment.
Reading is HARD.
And 500,000 people didn't die from hanging out in their house for a year.
how is this an example of "reading is hard"? outdoor zoos are not the same, obviously, as indoor gyms or dining.
maybe comprehension is hard?
I guess you suffer from both then. Keep your chin up, with HARD work and perseverance I believe you will get a handle on all this complicated stuff. I'm rooting for you.
Yeah all those >55 year olds getting covid at the gym really tipped the scales.
How did those old people get the virus? Or was it just old people getting it and spreading it to old people?
Maybe people under 55 can't spread the virus? Must have missed that scientific paper.
Judging by the responses here I can see why 500,000 have died in a year. Might as well just revert back to "it's just the flu".
So are you not accepting the fact that the vast majority catch it from private gatherings, and not restaurants or outside activities? Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent of all cases.
Do we have facts to support this? 1) That the vast majority catch COVID-10 from private gatherings?
2) Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent(age) of all cases?
It is stated as factual, was curious if we have reference sources on this?
Here is the first google search that popped up, Feel free to search more if you like. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/andrew-cuomo-private-household-gatherings-driving-mew-york-state-spread-of-covid-19/71-ea875293-1ea0-446b-a9a2-eb3ae1fe6dbd This is just New York, but its not that drastically different if you find nationwide data. I didnt post a source because I haven't heard anyone claim anything but household gatherings as the primary source, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that they were the primary spreader. 1. Private gatherings - 74% 2. Health care delivery - 8% 3. Higher ed student - 2% Restaurants and gyms are not in the top 3, leaving them below 2%. Gyms were actually listed as 0.06%, but that probably isnt accurate since most have been closed. All restaurant dining is usually listed around 1-2%. Making outside dining alone very small. Which is why so many find the forced shutdowns completely uneccesarry for small business, when they aren't the ones spreading the virus. In some cases you couldn't eat outside with a near-zero chance of spreading the virus, but no one was stopping you from having a birthdya party at your house.
Back on some positive news. UK just had a major announcement and I hope NA follows suit with a similar positive announcement. This is how you roll out how to reopen. Not the trickles of negative news we have been getting the last couple of months even with vaccines rolling out and numbers dropping off.
That’s interesting. Many areas in the US have been allowing outdoor sports and places like zoos to be open for a while now. We actually went to our local zoo over this past weekend. Gyms, restaurants, etc have been open for a long time with face mask regulations. Drive in cinemas never closed and was an easy outlet for entertainment during all of this...
I guess all you guys skipped over this part of the comment.
Reading is HARD.
And 500,000 people didn't die from hanging out in their house for a year.
how is this an example of "reading is hard"? outdoor zoos are not the same, obviously, as indoor gyms or dining.
maybe comprehension is hard?
I guess you suffer from both then. Keep your chin up, with HARD work and perseverance I believe you will get a handle on all this complicated stuff. I'm rooting for you.
Yeah all those >55 year olds getting covid at the gym really tipped the scales.
How did those old people get the virus? Or was it just old people getting it and spreading it to old people?
Maybe people under 55 can't spread the virus? Must have missed that scientific paper.
Judging by the responses here I can see why 500,000 have died in a year. Might as well just revert back to "it's just the flu".
So are you not accepting the fact that the vast majority catch it from private gatherings, and not restaurants or outside activities? Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent of all cases.
Do we have facts to support this? 1) That the vast majority catch COVID-10 from private gatherings?
2) Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent(age) of all cases?
It is stated as factual, was curious if we have reference sources on this?
Here is the first google search that popped up, Feel free to search more if you like. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/andrew-cuomo-private-household-gatherings-driving-mew-york-state-spread-of-covid-19/71-ea875293-1ea0-446b-a9a2-eb3ae1fe6dbd This is just New York, but its not that drastically different if you find nationwide data. I didnt post a source because I haven't heard anyone claim anything but household gatherings as the primary source, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that they were the primary spreader. 1. Private gatherings - 74% 2. Health care delivery - 8% 3. Higher ed student - 2% Restaurants and gyms are not in the top 3, leaving them below 2%. Gyms were actually listed as 0.06%, but that probably isnt accurate since most have been closed. All restaurant dining is usually listed around 1-2%. Making outside dining alone very small. Which is why so many find the forced shutdowns completely uneccesarry for small business, when they aren't the ones spreading the virus. In some cases you couldn't eat outside with a near-zero chance of spreading the virus, but no one was stopping you from having a birthdya party at your house.
Yeah I was really against restaurants and still think I’ve only eaten in 3 in a year. And those were distanced and almost empty. And I was still not comfortable.
then this data came out...still not comfortable, but the data shows it’s low risk. I guess we all draw our own lines
Hey, well, this is odd. Me again, after I said I would be gone I am back to drop another story about following the money (political science) during this pandemic, not the science.
Edited to Add.... This is a nice bi-partisan piece, something that should anger all of us.
Op-Ed: Vivek Murthy's Multimillion Dollar Conflicts Are Cause for Concern
— The Surgeon General nominee will only treat corporate America's woes
Over the weekend, Dan Diamond for the Washington Postreported that Vivek Murthy, MD, nominated for Surgeon General and to help the Biden COVID-19 response, received 2.6 million dollars in pandemic consulting fees and speaking engagements since January 2020. Murthy received $400,000 from Carnival cruise lines for consulting, over $400,000 in cash and another $400,000 worth of stock from Airbnb, nearly $300,000 from Estee Lauder, and $600,000 from Netflix. The article notes, "most of Murthy's consulting work came after Biden effectively cinched the Democratic nomination in April 2020, after rival Sen. Bernie Sanders dropped out of the race, and he was sometimes touted in speeches as a Biden adviser."
What's the problem?
These payments are a serious conflict of interest, and an example of the swamp that Americans want to drain. These companies aren't paying exorbitant fees for advice or services provided. Sars-Cov-2 is a great threat, but no one has two million dollars of special advice. Most experts know that distancing, ventilation, hand hygiene, cleaning, and masking are key. As for Carnival cruise lines, my advice would be simple: don't run cruises. That advice is free, by the way.
If these payments cannot be for services rendered, what are they for? They are payments for influence. All of these companies have pending issues right now with the Biden transition and administration. For example, Carnival wants to reopen their cruise ships, so they want Federal exemptions, and attainable ventilation standards; Airbnb wants to use Murthy's name and title to assure customers it's safe to stay; Netflix has a dual interest: they want customers to purchase their services, making lockdowns good for business, but they simultaneously must produce shows, so exemptions for filming would be great; the list goes on.
Murthy is actively shaping decisions that impact these company's profits. If someone gave me $400,000, I would hate to anger them. Payments of this magnitude inherently compromise Murthy's ability to think only about what is best for the public. These conflicts should disqualify him from the post of Surgeon General.
What is financial conflict of interest?
If a company profits from certain activities but not others, and you take money from that company, a conflict has been created. If Pfizer pays a doctor $200,000 in speaking fees, that doctor has a conflict any time they talk about or prescribe Pfizer drugs or any other drug that could be used in conjunction with or in lieu of Pfizer drugs. If Pfizer gives the money to a cancer patient advocacy organization who then gives it to the researcher, the conflict still exists, particularly if the source of funding is obvious to all involved.
Murthy received over $150,000 for a book. To me, this isn't a conflict. For example, someone could write an argument for or against saturated fats. That person doesn't have a conflict when they say it a second time because they were free to choose initially. In contrast, if pharmaceutical company Celgene pays you, then the direction of bias was always towards promotion of their drugs.
Personal payments -- those that Netflix and Carnival gave directly to Murthy -- are more problematic than research payments, where a company gives money to a university to run a study.
Finally, small donors do not concern me. If a politician raises money five dollars at a time, as some do, that's not a conflict. Getting $5,000,000 from Chevron is. Philanthropic and non-profit research funding is a conflict if the funder has skin in the game -- for example, their finances are tied to a research conclusion. However, if they are not in that market, no conflict exists.
I am concerned when there is a revolving door between government and industry. Previously, Jeff Bien, now a Stanford fellow, and I studied the relationship between U.S. FDA reviewers and pharma. We found the single most common job for someone who left the FDA was pharma. Can someone regulate forcefully if they know they may someday work on the other side of the table?
The silence is deafening
Conflict of interest is problematic whether the person is on your "team" or not. Yet, many have been silent about Murthy. Elizabeth Warren famously criticized then FDA commissioner nominee Dr. Scott Gottlieb for financial conflicts -- and I was sympathetic to that criticism -- but here, "Warren's office did not respond to repeated requests for comment about Murthy's financial disclosures."
In May of 2020, Buzzfeed broke the story that the former CEO of JetBlue donated $5,000 to help fund the Santa Clara seroprevalence study. This money was not paid to the researchers personally, but a pooled research fund. Many academics on Twitter were harshly critical of the conflict. In Murthy's case, the sum of money is 400 times larger, and was paid to the nominee directly. Yet, Twitter has been quiet.
Of course, Twitter leans towards democrats and Dr. Gottlieb and JetBlue are perceived as being from the other team, while Murthy is perceived as being on our side. Standards of conflict of interest should not be selectively applied based on political affiliation. Every person critical of Gottlieb who is not critical of Murthy is engaged in hypocrisy.
Conflict is a serious issue
I have a disclosure. I am the author of at least 14 peer reviewed papers exploring financial conflict of interest, and I think a lot about it. For example, I have lectured at major pharmaceutical companies and declined all payment, room and board, and travel. I even packed my own thermos of coffee and ate nothing. I did this because I believe -- and the evidence shows -- that these conflicts affect the writing, thinking, and practice of medicine. I also wanted to show junior folks that it is possible to avoid personal ties to biopharmaceutical companies, and interact productively with them.
Yet, the message of the surgeon general nominee is the opposite. The nomination says it's absolutely fine to accept lavish sums of money for "advice," and then accept a position that allows for decisions that might be interpreted as "paying them back." Young people have lost a role model.
What if he didn't know he was going back into public service?
Some ask if these payments are problematic if Murthy did not think he would return to government service. Or alternatively, shouldn't Murthy be paid for advice?
Again, it's disingenuous to pretend the size of these payments is for advice. Even without a future position, these companies likely believe Murthy has significant influence in the democratic machine. He may know the Biden administration's plans for occupational standards, and shape them. If he thinks favorably about these companies, he may influence policy to their benefit.
Pandemic profiteers
There is a broader ethical issue: profiteering from a pandemic is offensive. Americans have lost jobs in record number and many are scrambling just to get enough food. At the same time, some are enriching themselves by consulting for teachers' unions, state and local governments, and businesses. If you are making money from suggesting restrictions, you might not be in the best position to tell society when restrictions should end. This problem extends beyond Murthy.
Government is a swamp
There is an old saying that politicians go to Washington to do good but stay to do well. This reflects the growing American sentiment that government is a swamp. The folks who work to promote the public interest quickly join the companies they used to regulate. They regulate favorably while in office, and afterwards, help companies find the loopholes. Americans are frustrated by this phenomenon. Although the last administration claimed to want to drain the swamp, it enlarged it instead. The Surgeon General nominee's conflicts of interest make that swamp larger.
We must call out conflict of interest regardless of political party or whether or not we like Murthy. There are tens of thousands of public health experts who have received zero dollars for giving COVID-19 advice -- we must pick our advisors from this set. We need a political party willing to cut the ties of corporate interests from the work of public servants. The Surgeon General used to be "America's doctor," but now he appears to look more like Netflix's and Carnival's doctor. Faith in public institutions is at stake at Thursday's confirmation vote.
Back on some positive news. UK just had a major announcement and I hope NA follows suit with a similar positive announcement. This is how you roll out how to reopen. Not the trickles of negative news we have been getting the last couple of months even with vaccines rolling out and numbers dropping off.
That’s interesting. Many areas in the US have been allowing outdoor sports and places like zoos to be open for a while now. We actually went to our local zoo over this past weekend. Gyms, restaurants, etc have been open for a long time with face mask regulations. Drive in cinemas never closed and was an easy outlet for entertainment during all of this...
I guess all you guys skipped over this part of the comment.
Reading is HARD.
And 500,000 people didn't die from hanging out in their house for a year.
how is this an example of "reading is hard"? outdoor zoos are not the same, obviously, as indoor gyms or dining.
maybe comprehension is hard?
I guess you suffer from both then. Keep your chin up, with HARD work and perseverance I believe you will get a handle on all this complicated stuff. I'm rooting for you.
Yeah all those >55 year olds getting covid at the gym really tipped the scales.
How did those old people get the virus? Or was it just old people getting it and spreading it to old people?
Maybe people under 55 can't spread the virus? Must have missed that scientific paper.
Judging by the responses here I can see why 500,000 have died in a year. Might as well just revert back to "it's just the flu".
So are you not accepting the fact that the vast majority catch it from private gatherings, and not restaurants or outside activities? Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent of all cases.
Do we have facts to support this? 1) That the vast majority catch COVID-10 from private gatherings?
2) Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent(age) of all cases?
It is stated as factual, was curious if we have reference sources on this?
Here is the first google search that popped up, Feel free to search more if you like. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/andrew-cuomo-private-household-gatherings-driving-mew-york-state-spread-of-covid-19/71-ea875293-1ea0-446b-a9a2-eb3ae1fe6dbd This is just New York, but its not that drastically different if you find nationwide data. I didnt post a source because I haven't heard anyone claim anything but household gatherings as the primary source, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that they were the primary spreader. 1. Private gatherings - 74% 2. Health care delivery - 8% 3. Higher ed student - 2% Restaurants and gyms are not in the top 3, leaving them below 2%. Gyms were actually listed as 0.06%, but that probably isnt accurate since most have been closed. All restaurant dining is usually listed around 1-2%. Making outside dining alone very small. Which is why so many find the forced shutdowns completely uneccesarry for small business, when they aren't the ones spreading the virus. In some cases you couldn't eat outside with a near-zero chance of spreading the virus, but no one was stopping you from having a birthdya party at your house.
Yeah I was really against restaurants and still think I’ve only eaten in 3 in a year. And those were distanced and almost empty. And I was still not comfortable.
then this data came out...still not comfortable, but the data shows it’s low risk. I guess we all draw our own lines
I've been seeing this data for months now. Which is why places like California and LA took so much heat closing down all eating, even outdoor back in the late fall. Pretty much every business that follows the guidelines is very low risk. Hair salons, dining out, sporting events. I have not seen 1 piece of data that shows any of those are big spreaders. Really the only thing above the 2% mark are household gatherings (Which are usually reported in the 70-80% range) and healthcare related. Most are actually a fraction of a percent of the cases. Even bars when they follow the guidelines. The problem with bars is by nature the people don't want to social distance. But if they do, and just want to drink alone, or their friend Jack, they aren't a problem either.
Back on some positive news. UK just had a major announcement and I hope NA follows suit with a similar positive announcement. This is how you roll out how to reopen. Not the trickles of negative news we have been getting the last couple of months even with vaccines rolling out and numbers dropping off.
That’s interesting. Many areas in the US have been allowing outdoor sports and places like zoos to be open for a while now. We actually went to our local zoo over this past weekend. Gyms, restaurants, etc have been open for a long time with face mask regulations. Drive in cinemas never closed and was an easy outlet for entertainment during all of this...
I guess all you guys skipped over this part of the comment.
Reading is HARD.
And 500,000 people didn't die from hanging out in their house for a year.
how is this an example of "reading is hard"? outdoor zoos are not the same, obviously, as indoor gyms or dining.
maybe comprehension is hard?
I guess you suffer from both then. Keep your chin up, with HARD work and perseverance I believe you will get a handle on all this complicated stuff. I'm rooting for you.
Yeah all those >55 year olds getting covid at the gym really tipped the scales.
How did those old people get the virus? Or was it just old people getting it and spreading it to old people?
Maybe people under 55 can't spread the virus? Must have missed that scientific paper.
Judging by the responses here I can see why 500,000 have died in a year. Might as well just revert back to "it's just the flu".
So are you not accepting the fact that the vast majority catch it from private gatherings, and not restaurants or outside activities? Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent of all cases.
Do we have facts to support this? 1) That the vast majority catch COVID-10 from private gatherings?
2) Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent(age) of all cases?
It is stated as factual, was curious if we have reference sources on this?
Here is the first google search that popped up, Feel free to search more if you like. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/andrew-cuomo-private-household-gatherings-driving-mew-york-state-spread-of-covid-19/71-ea875293-1ea0-446b-a9a2-eb3ae1fe6dbd This is just New York, but its not that drastically different if you find nationwide data. I didnt post a source because I haven't heard anyone claim anything but household gatherings as the primary source, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that they were the primary spreader. 1. Private gatherings - 74% 2. Health care delivery - 8% 3. Higher ed student - 2% Restaurants and gyms are not in the top 3, leaving them below 2%. Gyms were actually listed as 0.06%, but that probably isnt accurate since most have been closed. All restaurant dining is usually listed around 1-2%. Making outside dining alone very small. Which is why so many find the forced shutdowns completely uneccesarry for small business, when they aren't the ones spreading the virus. In some cases you couldn't eat outside with a near-zero chance of spreading the virus, but no one was stopping you from having a birthdya party at your house.
Yeah I was really against restaurants and still think I’ve only eaten in 3 in a year. And those were distanced and almost empty. And I was still not comfortable.
then this data came out...still not comfortable, but the data shows it’s low risk. I guess we all draw our own lines
I've been seeing this data for months now. Which is why places like California and LA took so much heat closing down all eating, even outdoor back in the late fall. Pretty much every business that follows the guidelines is very low risk. Hair salons, dining out, sporting events. I have not seen 1 piece of data that shows any of those are big spreaders. Really the only thing above the 2% mark are household gatherings (Which are usually reported in the 70-80% range) and healthcare related. Most are actually a fraction of a percent of the cases. Even bars when they follow the guidelines. The problem with bars is by nature the people don't want to social distance. But if they do, and just want to drink alone, or their friend Jack, they aren't a problem either.
Back on some positive news. UK just had a major announcement and I hope NA follows suit with a similar positive announcement. This is how you roll out how to reopen. Not the trickles of negative news we have been getting the last couple of months even with vaccines rolling out and numbers dropping off.
That’s interesting. Many areas in the US have been allowing outdoor sports and places like zoos to be open for a while now. We actually went to our local zoo over this past weekend. Gyms, restaurants, etc have been open for a long time with face mask regulations. Drive in cinemas never closed and was an easy outlet for entertainment during all of this...
I guess all you guys skipped over this part of the comment.
Reading is HARD.
And 500,000 people didn't die from hanging out in their house for a year.
how is this an example of "reading is hard"? outdoor zoos are not the same, obviously, as indoor gyms or dining.
maybe comprehension is hard?
I guess you suffer from both then. Keep your chin up, with HARD work and perseverance I believe you will get a handle on all this complicated stuff. I'm rooting for you.
Yeah all those >55 year olds getting covid at the gym really tipped the scales.
How did those old people get the virus? Or was it just old people getting it and spreading it to old people?
Maybe people under 55 can't spread the virus? Must have missed that scientific paper.
Judging by the responses here I can see why 500,000 have died in a year. Might as well just revert back to "it's just the flu".
So are you not accepting the fact that the vast majority catch it from private gatherings, and not restaurants or outside activities? Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent of all cases.
Do we have facts to support this? 1) That the vast majority catch COVID-10 from private gatherings?
2) Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent(age) of all cases?
It is stated as factual, was curious if we have reference sources on this?
Here is the first google search that popped up, Feel free to search more if you like. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/andrew-cuomo-private-household-gatherings-driving-mew-york-state-spread-of-covid-19/71-ea875293-1ea0-446b-a9a2-eb3ae1fe6dbd This is just New York, but its not that drastically different if you find nationwide data. I didnt post a source because I haven't heard anyone claim anything but household gatherings as the primary source, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that they were the primary spreader. 1. Private gatherings - 74% 2. Health care delivery - 8% 3. Higher ed student - 2% Restaurants and gyms are not in the top 3, leaving them below 2%. Gyms were actually listed as 0.06%, but that probably isnt accurate since most have been closed. All restaurant dining is usually listed around 1-2%. Making outside dining alone very small. Which is why so many find the forced shutdowns completely uneccesarry for small business, when they aren't the ones spreading the virus. In some cases you couldn't eat outside with a near-zero chance of spreading the virus, but no one was stopping you from having a birthdya party at your house.
Yeah I was really against restaurants and still think I’ve only eaten in 3 in a year. And those were distanced and almost empty. And I was still not comfortable.
then this data came out...still not comfortable, but the data shows it’s low risk. I guess we all draw our own lines
I've been seeing this data for months now. Which is why places like California and LA took so much heat closing down all eating, even outdoor back in the late fall. Pretty much every business that follows the guidelines is very low risk. Hair salons, dining out, sporting events. I have not seen 1 piece of data that shows any of those are big spreaders. Really the only thing above the 2% mark are household gatherings (Which are usually reported in the 70-80% range) and healthcare related. Most are actually a fraction of a percent of the cases. Even bars when they follow the guidelines. The problem with bars is by nature the people don't want to social distance. But if they do, and just want to drink alone, or their friend Jack, they aren't a problem either.
The first time I saw the restaurant data and was surprised was when NYC released the data. I was shocked, but encouraged
Back on some positive news. UK just had a major announcement and I hope NA follows suit with a similar positive announcement. This is how you roll out how to reopen. Not the trickles of negative news we have been getting the last couple of months even with vaccines rolling out and numbers dropping off.
That’s interesting. Many areas in the US have been allowing outdoor sports and places like zoos to be open for a while now. We actually went to our local zoo over this past weekend. Gyms, restaurants, etc have been open for a long time with face mask regulations. Drive in cinemas never closed and was an easy outlet for entertainment during all of this...
I guess all you guys skipped over this part of the comment.
Reading is HARD.
And 500,000 people didn't die from hanging out in their house for a year.
how is this an example of "reading is hard"? outdoor zoos are not the same, obviously, as indoor gyms or dining.
maybe comprehension is hard?
I guess you suffer from both then. Keep your chin up, with HARD work and perseverance I believe you will get a handle on all this complicated stuff. I'm rooting for you.
Yeah all those >55 year olds getting covid at the gym really tipped the scales.
How did those old people get the virus? Or was it just old people getting it and spreading it to old people?
Maybe people under 55 can't spread the virus? Must have missed that scientific paper.
Judging by the responses here I can see why 500,000 have died in a year. Might as well just revert back to "it's just the flu".
So are you not accepting the fact that the vast majority catch it from private gatherings, and not restaurants or outside activities? Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent of all cases.
Do we have facts to support this? 1) That the vast majority catch COVID-10 from private gatherings?
2) Businesses that follow social distancing and other guidelines only account for a small percent(age) of all cases?
It is stated as factual, was curious if we have reference sources on this?
Here is the first google search that popped up, Feel free to search more if you like. https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/andrew-cuomo-private-household-gatherings-driving-mew-york-state-spread-of-covid-19/71-ea875293-1ea0-446b-a9a2-eb3ae1fe6dbd This is just New York, but its not that drastically different if you find nationwide data. I didnt post a source because I haven't heard anyone claim anything but household gatherings as the primary source, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that they were the primary spreader. 1. Private gatherings - 74% 2. Health care delivery - 8% 3. Higher ed student - 2% Restaurants and gyms are not in the top 3, leaving them below 2%. Gyms were actually listed as 0.06%, but that probably isnt accurate since most have been closed. All restaurant dining is usually listed around 1-2%. Making outside dining alone very small. Which is why so many find the forced shutdowns completely uneccesarry for small business, when they aren't the ones spreading the virus. In some cases you couldn't eat outside with a near-zero chance of spreading the virus, but no one was stopping you from having a birthdya party at your house.
Yeah I was really against restaurants and still think I’ve only eaten in 3 in a year. And those were distanced and almost empty. And I was still not comfortable.
then this data came out...still not comfortable, but the data shows it’s low risk. I guess we all draw our own lines
I've been seeing this data for months now. Which is why places like California and LA took so much heat closing down all eating, even outdoor back in the late fall. Pretty much every business that follows the guidelines is very low risk. Hair salons, dining out, sporting events. I have not seen 1 piece of data that shows any of those are big spreaders. Really the only thing above the 2% mark are household gatherings (Which are usually reported in the 70-80% range) and healthcare related. Most are actually a fraction of a percent of the cases. Even bars when they follow the guidelines. The problem with bars is by nature the people don't want to social distance. But if they do, and just want to drink alone, or their friend Jack, they aren't a problem either.
The first time I saw the restaurant data and was surprised was when NYC released the data. I was shocked, but encouraged
Even more shocking when they forced restaurants to close for 2 more months after presenting that data. Talk about not following the science....
Just found out that my wife and I get our first Pfizer vaccination shot this Thursday!
Good news!
That is GOOD news!!
I'm in NJ and my 82 year old Mom hasn't got her first shot. I signed her up about 2 weeks ago, after trying for 3 weeks or so. Seems to be no rhyme or reason how this is getting done? A friend of mine who's 81 , and retired, has already got both his shots. A friends-Friend , who is 66, and retired, got both of his shots too.
Are you all really that old? How the hell are you getting the vaccine?
A lot of essential workers, including teachers, have gotten the vaccine. They did 19,000 teachers in Colorado in 1 weekend. That was about 2 weeks ago
Yeah well I know plenty of people that were considered essential when the shit hit the fan, and never stopped working, who wait and wait
yesh I know states are doing it differently...and I know how some of you got yours. But man it’s stuff like this that makes me hate the lack of a federal plan
Are you all really that old? How the hell are you getting the vaccine?
A lot of essential workers, including teachers, have gotten the vaccine. They did 19,000 teachers in Colorado in 1 weekend. That was about 2 weeks ago
There are doing all teachers and staff in Ohio this month (1st shots). Moved ahead of the line, ahead of 65 year olds, ahead of people that have been making the food you eat and the tp you wipe with.
Are you all really that old? How the hell are you getting the vaccine?
A lot of essential workers, including teachers, have gotten the vaccine. They did 19,000 teachers in Colorado in 1 weekend. That was about 2 weeks ago
There are doing all teachers and staff in Ohio this month (1st shots). Moved ahead of the line, ahead of 65 year olds, ahead of people that have been making the food you eat and the tp you wipe with.
What was and wasn't labeled essential when this all first started never really made sense to me. But my assumption is teachers are rushed to get vaccinated so we can reopen schools. Ours is set to open fully in about a months. We've been hybrid almost all year, except for the month between Thanksgiving and Christmas. But with the vaccine push we've been told we're going back 100% in March.
We got the survey yesterday from our school district about whether we'd send our kids back to school if they reopen in April.
We opted for fully remote in that event. The town's school buildings were questionable before Covid-19. Kids were passing out in two of the elementary schools, and, of course, the folks the district engaged to investigate found no causes for concern.
We'll send them in September when more people are vaccinated, including mom and dad (we hope!).
What doesn't make sense to me is only focusing on the teachers. Our superintendent has said for months that once teachers have an opportunity to get vaccinated, we'll return to 100% in person. Completely ignoring the community. The fact that for every 1 teacher theres about 50 or 60 parents, dozens of grandparents these kids go home to. And the teacher's families. Its still believe you can catch and carry the virus once vaccinated, so opening schools based on one small population getting vaccinated doesn't make sense to me. That could be one factor, but not the only factor.
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We got the survey yesterday from our school district about whether we'd send our kids back to school if they reopen in April.
We opted for fully remote in that event. The town's school buildings were questionable before Covid-19. Kids were passing out in two of the elementary schools, and, of course, the folks the district engaged to investigate found no causes for concern.
We'll send them in September when more people are vaccinated, including mom and dad (we hope!).
Yeah, our school goes back to 4 days a week soon and we still have the option to keep at home. Will do so for the remainder of this semester and hope that everyone has vaccine access by fall - seeming like that should be the case.
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Schools were not designed for social distancing...
By the way many teachers and support know the kids usually are asymptomatic but the can be little spreaders.
schools are a baby sitting service more than anything these day. Teachers say that, my sister who is a teacher says that all the time..
I am really glad a lot of people are getting vaccinated, honest to goodness, I am happy for those who are getting vaccinated and feeling the sense of relief. Be advised though, the vaccine does not make you safe.
A simple question, what is the purpose of the vaccine again?
To quote from the post above:
"My question remains - for those that were pissed off at trump and the US response to ignore science...do you know want to follow the science which talks about open schools, opening businesses, how outdoor activities are safe (distancing the key), etc now? And if not, why?"
This has ALWAYS been about the political science, nothing more. Deep down I think most on this forum would admit that. See the latest tweet from above. Remember when "two weeks to flatten the curve" became "wear one mask and distance, no make that two masks" became "we need the vaccines to return to normal" became "even if you have the vaccines, continue to wear masks and distance"? Because I do.
Headed back In Hiding, continue to live your life all!
Hearing Fauci say the US will have to keep wearing masks until 2022 is frustrating to see. If makes no sense if the US has herd immunity as they are projecting way before then.
Did she express her concerns to people who could actually make a difference, or did she she gripe to her brother?
Yes we need kids to be looked after if mom and dad are both working. Yes school is free (minus the taxes we pay for it to run) and is the better "babysitting" option if that is how you want to look at it financially. Again though to ignore the importance of the education that is provided is a fault in your argument that is is a baby sitting service.
https://www.wgrz.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/andrew-cuomo-private-household-gatherings-driving-mew-york-state-spread-of-covid-19/71-ea875293-1ea0-446b-a9a2-eb3ae1fe6dbd
This is just New York, but its not that drastically different if you find nationwide data. I didnt post a source because I haven't heard anyone claim anything but household gatherings as the primary source, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that they were the primary spreader.
1. Private gatherings - 74%
2. Health care delivery - 8%
3. Higher ed student - 2%
Restaurants and gyms are not in the top 3, leaving them below 2%. Gyms were actually listed as 0.06%, but that probably isnt accurate since most have been closed.
All restaurant dining is usually listed around 1-2%. Making outside dining alone very small. Which is why so many find the forced shutdowns completely uneccesarry for small business, when they aren't the ones spreading the virus. In some cases you couldn't eat outside with a near-zero chance of spreading the virus, but no one was stopping you from having a birthdya party at your house.
then this data came out...still not comfortable, but the data shows it’s low risk. I guess we all draw our own lines
Edited to Add.... This is a nice bi-partisan piece, something that should anger all of us.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/91307
Op-Ed: Vivek Murthy's Multimillion Dollar Conflicts Are Cause for Concern
— The Surgeon General nominee will only treat corporate America's woes
Over the weekend, Dan Diamond for the Washington Post reported that Vivek Murthy, MD, nominated for Surgeon General and to help the Biden COVID-19 response, received 2.6 million dollars in pandemic consulting fees and speaking engagements since January 2020. Murthy received $400,000 from Carnival cruise lines for consulting, over $400,000 in cash and another $400,000 worth of stock from Airbnb, nearly $300,000 from Estee Lauder, and $600,000 from Netflix. The article notes, "most of Murthy's consulting work came after Biden effectively cinched the Democratic nomination in April 2020, after rival Sen. Bernie Sanders dropped out of the race, and he was sometimes touted in speeches as a Biden adviser."
What's the problem?
These payments are a serious conflict of interest, and an example of the swamp that Americans want to drain. These companies aren't paying exorbitant fees for advice or services provided. Sars-Cov-2 is a great threat, but no one has two million dollars of special advice. Most experts know that distancing, ventilation, hand hygiene, cleaning, and masking are key. As for Carnival cruise lines, my advice would be simple: don't run cruises. That advice is free, by the way.
If these payments cannot be for services rendered, what are they for? They are payments for influence. All of these companies have pending issues right now with the Biden transition and administration. For example, Carnival wants to reopen their cruise ships, so they want Federal exemptions, and attainable ventilation standards; Airbnb wants to use Murthy's name and title to assure customers it's safe to stay; Netflix has a dual interest: they want customers to purchase their services, making lockdowns good for business, but they simultaneously must produce shows, so exemptions for filming would be great; the list goes on.
Murthy is actively shaping decisions that impact these company's profits. If someone gave me $400,000, I would hate to anger them. Payments of this magnitude inherently compromise Murthy's ability to think only about what is best for the public. These conflicts should disqualify him from the post of Surgeon General.
What is financial conflict of interest?
If a company profits from certain activities but not others, and you take money from that company, a conflict has been created. If Pfizer pays a doctor $200,000 in speaking fees, that doctor has a conflict any time they talk about or prescribe Pfizer drugs or any other drug that could be used in conjunction with or in lieu of Pfizer drugs. If Pfizer gives the money to a cancer patient advocacy organization who then gives it to the researcher, the conflict still exists, particularly if the source of funding is obvious to all involved.
Murthy received over $150,000 for a book. To me, this isn't a conflict. For example, someone could write an argument for or against saturated fats. That person doesn't have a conflict when they say it a second time because they were free to choose initially. In contrast, if pharmaceutical company Celgene pays you, then the direction of bias was always towards promotion of their drugs.
Personal payments -- those that Netflix and Carnival gave directly to Murthy -- are more problematic than research payments, where a company gives money to a university to run a study.
Finally, small donors do not concern me. If a politician raises money five dollars at a time, as some do, that's not a conflict. Getting $5,000,000 from Chevron is. Philanthropic and non-profit research funding is a conflict if the funder has skin in the game -- for example, their finances are tied to a research conclusion. However, if they are not in that market, no conflict exists.
The silence is deafening
Conflict of interest is problematic whether the person is on your "team" or not. Yet, many have been silent about Murthy. Elizabeth Warren famously criticized then FDA commissioner nominee Dr. Scott Gottlieb for financial conflicts -- and I was sympathetic to that criticism -- but here, "Warren's office did not respond to repeated requests for comment about Murthy's financial disclosures."
In May of 2020, Buzzfeed broke the story that the former CEO of JetBlue donated $5,000 to help fund the Santa Clara seroprevalence study. This money was not paid to the researchers personally, but a pooled research fund. Many academics on Twitter were harshly critical of the conflict. In Murthy's case, the sum of money is 400 times larger, and was paid to the nominee directly. Yet, Twitter has been quiet.
Of course, Twitter leans towards democrats and Dr. Gottlieb and JetBlue are perceived as being from the other team, while Murthy is perceived as being on our side. Standards of conflict of interest should not be selectively applied based on political affiliation. Every person critical of Gottlieb who is not critical of Murthy is engaged in hypocrisy.
Conflict is a serious issue
I have a disclosure. I am the author of at least 14 peer reviewed papers exploring financial conflict of interest, and I think a lot about it. For example, I have lectured at major pharmaceutical companies and declined all payment, room and board, and travel. I even packed my own thermos of coffee and ate nothing. I did this because I believe -- and the evidence shows -- that these conflicts affect the writing, thinking, and practice of medicine. I also wanted to show junior folks that it is possible to avoid personal ties to biopharmaceutical companies, and interact productively with them.
Yet, the message of the surgeon general nominee is the opposite. The nomination says it's absolutely fine to accept lavish sums of money for "advice," and then accept a position that allows for decisions that might be interpreted as "paying them back." Young people have lost a role model.
What if he didn't know he was going back into public service?
Some ask if these payments are problematic if Murthy did not think he would return to government service. Or alternatively, shouldn't Murthy be paid for advice?
Again, it's disingenuous to pretend the size of these payments is for advice. Even without a future position, these companies likely believe Murthy has significant influence in the democratic machine. He may know the Biden administration's plans for occupational standards, and shape them. If he thinks favorably about these companies, he may influence policy to their benefit.
Pandemic profiteers
There is a broader ethical issue: profiteering from a pandemic is offensive. Americans have lost jobs in record number and many are scrambling just to get enough food. At the same time, some are enriching themselves by consulting for teachers' unions, state and local governments, and businesses. If you are making money from suggesting restrictions, you might not be in the best position to tell society when restrictions should end. This problem extends beyond Murthy.
Government is a swamp
There is an old saying that politicians go to Washington to do good but stay to do well. This reflects the growing American sentiment that government is a swamp. The folks who work to promote the public interest quickly join the companies they used to regulate. They regulate favorably while in office, and afterwards, help companies find the loopholes. Americans are frustrated by this phenomenon. Although the last administration claimed to want to drain the swamp, it enlarged it instead. The Surgeon General nominee's conflicts of interest make that swamp larger.
We must call out conflict of interest regardless of political party or whether or not we like Murthy. There are tens of thousands of public health experts who have received zero dollars for giving COVID-19 advice -- we must pick our advisors from this set. We need a political party willing to cut the ties of corporate interests from the work of public servants. The Surgeon General used to be "America's doctor," but now he appears to look more like Netflix's and Carnival's doctor. Faith in public institutions is at stake at Thursday's confirmation vote.
Good news!
I'm in NJ and my 82 year old Mom hasn't got her first shot. I signed her up about 2 weeks ago, after trying for 3 weeks or so. Seems to be no rhyme or reason how this is getting done? A friend of mine who's 81 , and retired, has already got both his shots. A friends-Friend , who is 66, and retired, got both of his shots too.
yesh I know states are doing it differently...and I know how some of you got yours. But man it’s stuff like this that makes me hate the lack of a federal plan
We opted for fully remote in that event. The town's school buildings were questionable before Covid-19. Kids were passing out in two of the elementary schools, and, of course, the folks the district engaged to investigate found no causes for concern.
We'll send them in September when more people are vaccinated, including mom and dad (we hope!).
Yeah, our school goes back to 4 days a week soon and we still have the option to keep at home. Will do so for the remainder of this semester and hope that everyone has vaccine access by fall - seeming like that should be the case.