Riots/Looting/Violence and general post-George Floyd madness
Comments
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Bbiggs and McGruff10 you're still jumping to the conclusion that defunding means downsizing. Altering does not just mean taking away cops.bbiggs said:
Wrong. Not speculation. I know for a fact that police presence has been lessened in Chicago and there has been mayhem as a result. Fact. If you want to speculate that fewer police will lead to a eutopian city, have at it.oftenreading said:
If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble
Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.Glorified KC said:
I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble
I wish I was a sacrifice, but somehow still lived on.0 -
Yeah I don't disagree with that. Systemic racism, both in policing and society in general, is a problem and if it didn't exist, these riots wouldn't be happening. But since they are happening, leadership, especially on the left on the local level, has to do something to curtail these riots. And I feel they can do that while still putting into action efforts to end systemic racism. At least I think so. Or hope so...static111 said:
Fair enough. It sounds like everybody wants the same thing here. I am just of the mind that the root cause of police violence And culture needs to be addressed first, for any other changes such as not having violent eruptions at every police use of force to follow. The spark of all these incidents is the state sanctioned violence against citizens. I really believe that if you change the culture of the police and address some of the inequities Of race in our society that these extreme forms of protest will stop.Ledbetterman10 said:
I think cops having guns drawn is pretty different than a mugger having a gun drawn, speaking of false equivalencies. But fortunately you got came away from that mugger incident unscathed, and I don't think that's stupid on your part to fight him. I'd do the same thing if it came to that. But if cops had guns drawn on me, and I felt I was doing nothing wrong, I'd just comply. If I didn't do anything wrong, what can go wrong with complying? To fight them gets you at best a felony charge, and worst, killed.static111 said:
Fine I willLedbetterman10 said:
I see. So you wanted me to put myself in his sister's shoes and look at it from her point of view, but you refuse to put yourself in his shoes and consider how you'd handle the situation if you were in it.static111 said:
I’m not him what I would Do is irrelevant. The main point is that cops could have done many things to avoid shooting him 7 times in the back And likely prevented a riot.Ledbetterman10 said:
No, resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. But you sure run the risk of being shot if you walk away from police and reach into your car like that. Would you do that? If the police were questioning you, would you walk away from them, open your car door, and reach in?static111 said:
We also don’t know if Blake knew if he had an arrest warrant. Which all is aside from the fact that arrest warrant or not criminal history or not, cops are not the administers of capital punishment and need to stop killing black people for “resisting arrest”. Because last I saw “resisting arrest” was not a punishable by death with no due process offense.Ledbetterman10 said:
Just going by this BBC report, it says...dignin said:
I don't know much about it, did they know who he was and that he was wanted for sexual assault and we're they trying to arrest him before they shot him? Honest questions.Ledbetterman10 said:
Or you know black people could stop resisting arrest, then things would never get to the point of escalation. Jacob Blake was wanted on a sexual assault charge. And no, I'm not saying he deserves to be shot for that. And I do think the cops should've had him subdued before he could even walk around the front of his car to the drivers' side door. But if you want to play the one-thing-leads-to-another game, it all starts with him being charged with sexual assault, then not cooperating with the police during the arrest.static111 said:
Or you know the cops could stop killing black people, then things would never get this far.
"Court records show there was an active arrest warrant against Mr Blake, related to charges of sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct. But it is unclear if police were aware of this at the time of his shooting."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53909766
So that, and the 22-second video is all we can really go on at this point.
play along to your false equivalency argument. The likelihood is that if cops or anyone is coming at me with a gun I going to flee or fight. Can’t say which. Although last(And only) time I had a guN pulled on me I chose fight and disarmed and thoroughly beat the individual. This was a late night mugging scenario and may or may not have been (probably was) stupid on my part. So judging from my one experience having a gun pulled on me I would say it may even be more likely that I would fight especially if I felt that I was doing nothing wrong.
Now a possible response you or someone else may have to the bolded part, is that's easy for me to say as a white guy. A black guy could have not done something wrong, comply with the police during the arrest, and still get hosed in the court process. That could be true. I've acknowledged systemic racism in this thread and others. But engaging in a fight with the cops during the arrest isn't going to help. Even if you get away, there will be a warrant and you'll be on the run forever.
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I think everybody wants the same as well. It's how we get there, and not just complaining about the aftermath. We need to prevent innocent people and their businesses from getting victimized by addressing the fear of police unnecessary escalating a situation with a black man to severe injury or death.Ledbetterman10 said:
Yeah I don't disagree with that. Systemic racism, both in policing and society in general, is a problem and if it didn't exist, these riots wouldn't be happening. But since they are happening, leadership, especially on the left on the local level, has to do something to curtail these riots. And I feel they can do that while still putting into action efforts to end systemic racism. At least I think so. Or hope so...static111 said:
Fair enough. It sounds like everybody wants the same thing here. I am just of the mind that the root cause of police violence And culture needs to be addressed first, for any other changes such as not having violent eruptions at every police use of force to follow. The spark of all these incidents is the state sanctioned violence against citizens. I really believe that if you change the culture of the police and address some of the inequities Of race in our society that these extreme forms of protest will stop.Ledbetterman10 said:
I think cops having guns drawn is pretty different than a mugger having a gun drawn, speaking of false equivalencies. But fortunately you got came away from that mugger incident unscathed, and I don't think that's stupid on your part to fight him. I'd do the same thing if it came to that. But if cops had guns drawn on me, and I felt I was doing nothing wrong, I'd just comply. If I didn't do anything wrong, what can go wrong with complying? To fight them gets you at best a felony charge, and worst, killed.static111 said:
Fine I willLedbetterman10 said:
I see. So you wanted me to put myself in his sister's shoes and look at it from her point of view, but you refuse to put yourself in his shoes and consider how you'd handle the situation if you were in it.static111 said:
I’m not him what I would Do is irrelevant. The main point is that cops could have done many things to avoid shooting him 7 times in the back And likely prevented a riot.Ledbetterman10 said:
No, resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. But you sure run the risk of being shot if you walk away from police and reach into your car like that. Would you do that? If the police were questioning you, would you walk away from them, open your car door, and reach in?static111 said:
We also don’t know if Blake knew if he had an arrest warrant. Which all is aside from the fact that arrest warrant or not criminal history or not, cops are not the administers of capital punishment and need to stop killing black people for “resisting arrest”. Because last I saw “resisting arrest” was not a punishable by death with no due process offense.Ledbetterman10 said:
Just going by this BBC report, it says...dignin said:
I don't know much about it, did they know who he was and that he was wanted for sexual assault and we're they trying to arrest him before they shot him? Honest questions.Ledbetterman10 said:
Or you know black people could stop resisting arrest, then things would never get to the point of escalation. Jacob Blake was wanted on a sexual assault charge. And no, I'm not saying he deserves to be shot for that. And I do think the cops should've had him subdued before he could even walk around the front of his car to the drivers' side door. But if you want to play the one-thing-leads-to-another game, it all starts with him being charged with sexual assault, then not cooperating with the police during the arrest.static111 said:
Or you know the cops could stop killing black people, then things would never get this far.
"Court records show there was an active arrest warrant against Mr Blake, related to charges of sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct. But it is unclear if police were aware of this at the time of his shooting."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53909766
So that, and the 22-second video is all we can really go on at this point.
play along to your false equivalency argument. The likelihood is that if cops or anyone is coming at me with a gun I going to flee or fight. Can’t say which. Although last(And only) time I had a guN pulled on me I chose fight and disarmed and thoroughly beat the individual. This was a late night mugging scenario and may or may not have been (probably was) stupid on my part. So judging from my one experience having a gun pulled on me I would say it may even be more likely that I would fight especially if I felt that I was doing nothing wrong.
Now a possible response you or someone else may have to the bolded part, is that's easy for me to say as a white guy. A black guy could have not done something wrong, comply with the police during the arrest, and still get hosed in the court process. That could be true. I've acknowledged systemic racism in this thread and others. But engaging in a fight with the cops during the arrest isn't going to help. Even if you get away, there will be a warrant and you'll be on the run forever.
I wish I was a sacrifice, but somehow still lived on.0 -
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Oh boy.JW269453 said:
Easily understandable, no need to question the last 3 months of damage and destruction. If something doesn’t change now at the current rate we will have 250,000 more people who will die at the hands of police by the year 2270. Although only a fraction of those will actually be due to undeniable poor practice, which everyone agrees is wrong. Here is some perspective for you if you choose to believe a study by Johns Hopkins, 250,000 people die in this country every year due to medical malpractice. Weird, I must have missed all of the hospitals and private practices in flames. Where is the outrage against all of these evil doctors killing 250x more people per year than the police? Maybe the situation in this country is so understandable for you because your reality is just television and mouse clicks. Does the Canadian media take every isolated incident it can and overnight make it national news to force feed a narrative? Seems like a good way to cause what we are currently seeing, I know this will come as a shock but there are many of us that think this is doing more harm than good.dignin said:
Maybe some people can understand but not condone the looting and destruction of property but not the assault on an elderly man (like you have obviously implied as a cheap shot). The two don't have to go hand in hand.bbiggs said:
Well, maybe if you read my comment, you'd understand that I didn't say anything about "finding anyone here who thinks that's okay." The point is that if necessary change is the objective, looting, burning, destructing and beating is not the way to accomplish it. They all go hand in hand these days.dignin said:
I missed the ones about beating up 70 year olds. Maybe point me to those ones, the ones you were making reference too.bbiggs said:
Looting, burning buildings and destructing is condoned and rationalized all the time here.dignin said:
You're not going to find anyone here who thinks that okay, so why the strawman?bbiggs said:^ Beating up innocent, elderly business owners while destructing cities is all part of the process for necessary change. Didn’t you know?In case this needs to be said, yes, I’m being sarcastic.
Are you seriously going to compare dying from a mistake by a medical professional to being violently murdered by police?
Seriously?
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Oh boy. Are you saying that police don't make mistakes? I guess it is all in the wording, violently murdered or deadly mistake. Both are trusted to not make mistakes, but they both do and one just happens to make those mistakes without national consequence.dignin said:
Oh boy.JW269453 said:
Easily understandable, no need to question the last 3 months of damage and destruction. If something doesn’t change now at the current rate we will have 250,000 more people who will die at the hands of police by the year 2270. Although only a fraction of those will actually be due to undeniable poor practice, which everyone agrees is wrong. Here is some perspective for you if you choose to believe a study by Johns Hopkins, 250,000 people die in this country every year due to medical malpractice. Weird, I must have missed all of the hospitals and private practices in flames. Where is the outrage against all of these evil doctors killing 250x more people per year than the police? Maybe the situation in this country is so understandable for you because your reality is just television and mouse clicks. Does the Canadian media take every isolated incident it can and overnight make it national news to force feed a narrative? Seems like a good way to cause what we are currently seeing, I know this will come as a shock but there are many of us that think this is doing more harm than good.dignin said:
Maybe some people can understand but not condone the looting and destruction of property but not the assault on an elderly man (like you have obviously implied as a cheap shot). The two don't have to go hand in hand.bbiggs said:
Well, maybe if you read my comment, you'd understand that I didn't say anything about "finding anyone here who thinks that's okay." The point is that if necessary change is the objective, looting, burning, destructing and beating is not the way to accomplish it. They all go hand in hand these days.dignin said:
I missed the ones about beating up 70 year olds. Maybe point me to those ones, the ones you were making reference too.bbiggs said:
Looting, burning buildings and destructing is condoned and rationalized all the time here.dignin said:
You're not going to find anyone here who thinks that okay, so why the strawman?bbiggs said:^ Beating up innocent, elderly business owners while destructing cities is all part of the process for necessary change. Didn’t you know?In case this needs to be said, yes, I’m being sarcastic.
Are you seriously going to compare dying from a mistake by a medical professional to being violently murdered by police?
Seriously?
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https://wcca.wicourts.gov/caseDetail.html?caseNo=2020CF000736&countyNo=30&index=0&mode=detailsLedbetterman10 said:
Just going by this BBC report, it says...dignin said:
I don't know much about it, did they know who he was and that he was wanted for sexual assault and we're they trying to arrest him before they shot him? Honest questions.Ledbetterman10 said:
Or you know black people could stop resisting arrest, then things would never get to the point of escalation. Jacob Blake was wanted on a sexual assault charge. And no, I'm not saying he deserves to be shot for that. And I do think the cops should've had him subdued before he could even walk around the front of his car to the drivers' side door. But if you want to play the one-thing-leads-to-another game, it all starts with him being charged with sexual assault, then not cooperating with the police during the arrest.static111 said:
Or you know the cops could stop killing black people, then things would never get this far.
"Court records show there was an active arrest warrant against Mr Blake, related to charges of sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct. But it is unclear if police were aware of this at the time of his shooting."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53909766
So that, and the 22-second video is all we can really go on at this point.
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When a nurse or doctor hop onto the patients bed and stick a knee to their neck until they die I will understand your point.JW269453 said:
Oh boy. Are you saying that police don't make mistakes? I guess it is all in the wording, violently murdered or deadly mistake. Both are trusted to not make mistakes, but they both do and one just happens to make those mistakes without national consequence.dignin said:
Oh boy.JW269453 said:
Easily understandable, no need to question the last 3 months of damage and destruction. If something doesn’t change now at the current rate we will have 250,000 more people who will die at the hands of police by the year 2270. Although only a fraction of those will actually be due to undeniable poor practice, which everyone agrees is wrong. Here is some perspective for you if you choose to believe a study by Johns Hopkins, 250,000 people die in this country every year due to medical malpractice. Weird, I must have missed all of the hospitals and private practices in flames. Where is the outrage against all of these evil doctors killing 250x more people per year than the police? Maybe the situation in this country is so understandable for you because your reality is just television and mouse clicks. Does the Canadian media take every isolated incident it can and overnight make it national news to force feed a narrative? Seems like a good way to cause what we are currently seeing, I know this will come as a shock but there are many of us that think this is doing more harm than good.dignin said:
Maybe some people can understand but not condone the looting and destruction of property but not the assault on an elderly man (like you have obviously implied as a cheap shot). The two don't have to go hand in hand.bbiggs said:
Well, maybe if you read my comment, you'd understand that I didn't say anything about "finding anyone here who thinks that's okay." The point is that if necessary change is the objective, looting, burning, destructing and beating is not the way to accomplish it. They all go hand in hand these days.dignin said:
I missed the ones about beating up 70 year olds. Maybe point me to those ones, the ones you were making reference too.bbiggs said:
Looting, burning buildings and destructing is condoned and rationalized all the time here.dignin said:
You're not going to find anyone here who thinks that okay, so why the strawman?bbiggs said:^ Beating up innocent, elderly business owners while destructing cities is all part of the process for necessary change. Didn’t you know?In case this needs to be said, yes, I’m being sarcastic.
Are you seriously going to compare dying from a mistake by a medical professional to being violently murdered by police?
Seriously?0 -
I didn't expect you to understand my point. Rioting and arson in the name of 1,000 lives per year is obviously more important to you than issues that claim hundreds of thousands of lives per year.dignin said:
When a nurse or doctor hop onto the patients bed and stick a knee to their neck until they die I will understand your point.JW269453 said:
Oh boy. Are you saying that police don't make mistakes? I guess it is all in the wording, violently murdered or deadly mistake. Both are trusted to not make mistakes, but they both do and one just happens to make those mistakes without national consequence.dignin said:
Oh boy.JW269453 said:
Easily understandable, no need to question the last 3 months of damage and destruction. If something doesn’t change now at the current rate we will have 250,000 more people who will die at the hands of police by the year 2270. Although only a fraction of those will actually be due to undeniable poor practice, which everyone agrees is wrong. Here is some perspective for you if you choose to believe a study by Johns Hopkins, 250,000 people die in this country every year due to medical malpractice. Weird, I must have missed all of the hospitals and private practices in flames. Where is the outrage against all of these evil doctors killing 250x more people per year than the police? Maybe the situation in this country is so understandable for you because your reality is just television and mouse clicks. Does the Canadian media take every isolated incident it can and overnight make it national news to force feed a narrative? Seems like a good way to cause what we are currently seeing, I know this will come as a shock but there are many of us that think this is doing more harm than good.dignin said:
Maybe some people can understand but not condone the looting and destruction of property but not the assault on an elderly man (like you have obviously implied as a cheap shot). The two don't have to go hand in hand.bbiggs said:
Well, maybe if you read my comment, you'd understand that I didn't say anything about "finding anyone here who thinks that's okay." The point is that if necessary change is the objective, looting, burning, destructing and beating is not the way to accomplish it. They all go hand in hand these days.dignin said:
I missed the ones about beating up 70 year olds. Maybe point me to those ones, the ones you were making reference too.bbiggs said:
Looting, burning buildings and destructing is condoned and rationalized all the time here.dignin said:
You're not going to find anyone here who thinks that okay, so why the strawman?bbiggs said:^ Beating up innocent, elderly business owners while destructing cities is all part of the process for necessary change. Didn’t you know?In case this needs to be said, yes, I’m being sarcastic.
Are you seriously going to compare dying from a mistake by a medical professional to being violently murdered by police?
Seriously?
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Didn't have a chance to watch any of it until now. That is crazy, but I'm only surprised it took this long for something like this to happen.Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
This is incredibly sad, as much as I hate the lotion and burning, no one should be going around shooting people like that. I've seen that same kid in several videos, I assume he's that 17 year old that was arrested. Looks like he just wanted to play army.
I'm assuming these are the 2 dead and 1 injured that I heard reports about. I guess that victim in the first clip didn't make it.
He was walking around like he's doing everyone a favor and talking to the cops, its surreal. Glad they got the kid, hope there aren't any copy cats tonight.
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Speak with your pharmacist or doctor.mace1229 said:
Didn't have a chance to watch any of it until now. That is crazy, but I'm only surprised it took this long for something like this to happen.Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
This is incredibly sad, as much as I hate the lotion and burning, no one should be going around shooting people like that. I've seen that same kid in several videos, I assume he's that 17 year old that was arrested. Looks like he just wanted to play army.
I'm assuming these are the 2 dead and 1 injured that I heard reports about. I guess that victim in the first clip didn't make it.
He was walking around like he's doing everyone a favor and talking to the cops, its surreal. Glad they got the kid, hope there aren't any copy cats tonight.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
Haha! oops. looting....Halifax2TheMax said:
Speak with your pharmacist or doctor.mace1229 said:
Didn't have a chance to watch any of it until now. That is crazy, but I'm only surprised it took this long for something like this to happen.Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
This is incredibly sad, as much as I hate the lotion and burning, no one should be going around shooting people like that. I've seen that same kid in several videos, I assume he's that 17 year old that was arrested. Looks like he just wanted to play army.
I'm assuming these are the 2 dead and 1 injured that I heard reports about. I guess that victim in the first clip didn't make it.
He was walking around like he's doing everyone a favor and talking to the cops, its surreal. Glad they got the kid, hope there aren't any copy cats tonight.
0 -
Chicago has not reduced its police force, which is significantly more per capital than other large cities such as NYC and LA. They have not cut their police budget either. In the past, when the city has cut the police budget and consequently the number of police, crime rates fell during the same period.bbiggs said:
Wrong. Not speculation. I know for a fact that police presence has been lessened in Chicago and there has been mayhem as a result. Fact. If you want to speculate that fewer police will lead to a eutopian city, have at it.oftenreading said:
If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble
Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.Glorified KC said:
I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big troubleSo yes, you’re speculating.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
oftenreading said:
Chicago has not reduced its police force, which is significantly more per capital than other large cities such as NYC and LA. They have not cut their police budget either. In the past, when the city has cut the police budget and consequently the number of police, crime rates fell during the same period.bbiggs said:
Wrong. Not speculation. I know for a fact that police presence has been lessened in Chicago and there has been mayhem as a result. Fact. If you want to speculate that fewer police will lead to a eutopian city, have at it.oftenreading said:
If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble
Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.Glorified KC said:
I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big troubleSo yes, you’re speculating.Listen. You can read and research all you want on the topic. I live here and have friends in Chicago PD. I'm getting first-hand accounts from "boots on the ground;" not what Google tells me. The police presence has been intentionally scaled back during this surge of recent bullshit (i.e. looting, vandalizing, rioting). So please don't tell me I'm speculating considering our distances to the source.0 -
wonder what those boots taste like."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Who gave the word to scale back?bbiggs said:oftenreading said:
Chicago has not reduced its police force, which is significantly more per capital than other large cities such as NYC and LA. They have not cut their police budget either. In the past, when the city has cut the police budget and consequently the number of police, crime rates fell during the same period.bbiggs said:
Wrong. Not speculation. I know for a fact that police presence has been lessened in Chicago and there has been mayhem as a result. Fact. If you want to speculate that fewer police will lead to a eutopian city, have at it.oftenreading said:
If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble
Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.Glorified KC said:
I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big troubleSo yes, you’re speculating.Listen. You can read and research all you want on the topic. I live here and have friends in Chicago PD. I'm getting first-hand accounts from "boots on the ground;" not what Google tells me. The police presence has been intentionally scaled back during this surge of recent bullshit (i.e. looting, vandalizing, rioting). So please don't tell me I'm speculating considering our distances to the source.0 -
Knowing him, either bourbon or a local ipa. However that is just pure speculation.gimmesometruth27 said:wonder what those boots taste like.I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
Or to do a work slow down, encourage a sick out, etc.?dignin said:
Who gave the word to scale back?bbiggs said:oftenreading said:
Chicago has not reduced its police force, which is significantly more per capital than other large cities such as NYC and LA. They have not cut their police budget either. In the past, when the city has cut the police budget and consequently the number of police, crime rates fell during the same period.bbiggs said:
Wrong. Not speculation. I know for a fact that police presence has been lessened in Chicago and there has been mayhem as a result. Fact. If you want to speculate that fewer police will lead to a eutopian city, have at it.oftenreading said:
If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble
Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.Glorified KC said:
I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big troubleSo yes, you’re speculating.Listen. You can read and research all you want on the topic. I live here and have friends in Chicago PD. I'm getting first-hand accounts from "boots on the ground;" not what Google tells me. The police presence has been intentionally scaled back during this surge of recent bullshit (i.e. looting, vandalizing, rioting). So please don't tell me I'm speculating considering our distances to the source.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
Exactly. If they haven't fired anyone what are they up to now? I have so many questions.Halifax2TheMax said:
Or to do a work slow down, encourage a sick out, etc.?dignin said:
Who gave the word to scale back?bbiggs said:oftenreading said:
Chicago has not reduced its police force, which is significantly more per capital than other large cities such as NYC and LA. They have not cut their police budget either. In the past, when the city has cut the police budget and consequently the number of police, crime rates fell during the same period.bbiggs said:
Wrong. Not speculation. I know for a fact that police presence has been lessened in Chicago and there has been mayhem as a result. Fact. If you want to speculate that fewer police will lead to a eutopian city, have at it.oftenreading said:
If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble
Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.Glorified KC said:
I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big troubleSo yes, you’re speculating.Listen. You can read and research all you want on the topic. I live here and have friends in Chicago PD. I'm getting first-hand accounts from "boots on the ground;" not what Google tells me. The police presence has been intentionally scaled back during this surge of recent bullshit (i.e. looting, vandalizing, rioting). So please don't tell me I'm speculating considering our distances to the source.0 -
Which cities have had lower crime rates due to cutting the police budget?oftenreading said:
Chicago has not reduced its police force, which is significantly more per capital than other large cities such as NYC and LA. They have not cut their police budget either. In the past, when the city has cut the police budget and consequently the number of police, crime rates fell during the same period.bbiggs said:
Wrong. Not speculation. I know for a fact that police presence has been lessened in Chicago and there has been mayhem as a result. Fact. If you want to speculate that fewer police will lead to a eutopian city, have at it.oftenreading said:
If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble
Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.Glorified KC said:
I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.bbiggs said:
Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.Glorified KC said:
The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?bbiggs said:
You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.Glorified KC said:
Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.bbiggs said:
Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.cincybearcat said:
It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.PJNB said:
So thats a yes?PJPOWER said:
I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.PJNB said:PJPOWER said:
There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?Ledbetterman10 said:Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:
Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21Just complete and utter fucking chaos.
You think its ok to execute someone for looting?
It's Newton's 3rd law.
1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands
Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI
When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big troubleSo yes, you’re speculating.
Post edited by mcgruff10 onI'll ride the wave where it takes me......0
This discussion has been closed.
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