Riots/Looting/Violence and general post-George Floyd madness

Glorified KC · August 2020

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

dignin said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Or you know the cops could stop killing black people, then things would never get this far.

Or you know black people could stop resisting arrest, then things would never get to the point of escalation. Jacob Blake was wanted on a sexual assault charge. And no, I'm not saying he deserves to be shot for that. And I do think the cops should've had him subdued before he could even walk around the front of his car to the drivers' side door. But if you want to play the one-thing-leads-to-another game, it all starts with him being charged with sexual assault, then not cooperating with the police during the arrest.

I don't know much about it, did they know who he was and that he was wanted for sexual assault and we're they trying to arrest him before they shot him? Honest questions.

Just going by this BBC report, it says...

"Court records show there was an active arrest warrant against Mr Blake, related to charges of sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct. But it is unclear if police were aware of this at the time of his shooting."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53909766

So that, and the 22-second video is all we can really go on at this point.

We also don’t know if Blake knew if he had an arrest warrant. Which all is aside from the fact that arrest warrant or not criminal history or not, cops are not the administers of capital punishment and need to stop killing black people for “resisting arrest”. Because last I saw “resisting arrest” was not a punishable by death with no due process offense.

No, resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. But you sure run the risk of being shot if you walk away from police and reach into your car like that. Would you do that? If the police were questioning you, would you walk away from them, open your car door, and reach in?

I’m not him what I would Do is irrelevant. The main point is that cops could have done many things to avoid shooting him 7 times in the back And likely prevented a riot.

If I could ask that police officer one question, it would be "what in your protocol warranted having your weapon out as you were following Blake around his SUV?" There is still a lot of information that needs to come to light, but I don't understand why his weapon was drawn in the first place. There are a lot of conflicting stories in the media right now. Too bad Kenosha police aren't required to wear body cams, because that may help answer a lot of questions.

Ledbetterman10 · August 2020

Glorified KC said:

If I could ask that police officer one question, it would be "what in your protocol warranted having your weapon out as you were following Blake around his SUV?" There is still a lot of information that needs to come to light, but I don't understand why his weapon was drawn in the first place. There are a lot of conflicting stories in the media right now. Too bad Kenosha police aren't required to wear body cams, because that may help answer a lot of questions.

And these are good questions. And I think body cams should be required for every department.

static111 · August 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

dignin said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Or you know the cops could stop killing black people, then things would never get this far.

Or you know black people could stop resisting arrest, then things would never get to the point of escalation. Jacob Blake was wanted on a sexual assault charge. And no, I'm not saying he deserves to be shot for that. And I do think the cops should've had him subdued before he could even walk around the front of his car to the drivers' side door. But if you want to play the one-thing-leads-to-another game, it all starts with him being charged with sexual assault, then not cooperating with the police during the arrest.

I don't know much about it, did they know who he was and that he was wanted for sexual assault and we're they trying to arrest him before they shot him? Honest questions.

Just going by this BBC report, it says...

"Court records show there was an active arrest warrant against Mr Blake, related to charges of sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct. But it is unclear if police were aware of this at the time of his shooting."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53909766

So that, and the 22-second video is all we can really go on at this point.

We also don’t know if Blake knew if he had an arrest warrant. Which all is aside from the fact that arrest warrant or not criminal history or not, cops are not the administers of capital punishment and need to stop killing black people for “resisting arrest”. Because last I saw “resisting arrest” was not a punishable by death with no due process offense.

No, resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. But you sure run the risk of being shot if you walk away from police and reach into your car like that. Would you do that? If the police were questioning you, would you walk away from them, open your car door, and reach in?

I’m not him what I would Do is irrelevant. The main point is that cops could have done many things to avoid shooting him 7 times in the back And likely prevented a riot.

I see. So you wanted me to put myself in his sister's shoes and look at it from her point of view, but you refuse to put yourself in his shoes and consider how you'd handle the situation if you were in it.

Fine I will
play along to your false equivalency argument. The likelihood is that if cops or anyone is coming at me with a gun I going to flee or fight. Can’t say which. Although last(And only) time I had a guN pulled on me I chose fight and disarmed and thoroughly beat the individual. This was a late night mugging scenario and may or may not have been (probably was) stupid on my part. So judging from my one experience having a gun pulled on me I would say it may even be more likely that I would fight especially if I felt that I was doing nothing wrong.

brianlux · August 2020

hedonist said:

If this tiny, ultimately-inconsequential microcosm of us can't discuss shit or even disagree civilly, what makes anyone think progress could or would be made on a larger scale?

BingGO! This nails it!

mace1229 · August 2020

OnWis97 said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count.

"Defunding" is just brutal terminology.

There have been plenty of leaders, including politicians and BLM leaders, who have said "defund means defund" and make it clear they want a smaller police and in some cases completely abolish the police.

PJPOWER · August 2020

mace1229 said:

OnWis97 said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count.

"Defunding" is just brutal terminology.

There have been plenty of leaders, including politicians and BLM leaders, who have said "defund means defund" and make it clear they want a smaller police and in some cases completely abolish the police.

Exactly, you ask one person and they say “disband“, you ask someone else and they say they want certain funds going to social programs. What is the official meaning of “defund” that we are supposed to agree or disagree with?

bbiggs · August 2020

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.

Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.

mace1229 · August 2020

PJPOWER said:

mace1229 said:

OnWis97 said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count.

"Defunding" is just brutal terminology.

There have been plenty of leaders, including politicians and BLM leaders, who have said "defund means defund" and make it clear they want a smaller police and in some cases completely abolish the police.

Exactly, you ask one person and they say “disband“, you ask someone else and they say they want certain funds going to social programs. What is the official meaning of “defund” that we are supposed to agree or disagree with?

Defund has an official meaning - to stop receiving funds.
My opinion, and to some that doesn't mean anything, is that groups were chanting "Defund the police" wanting to disband and abolish the police. Politicians didn't want to disagree with these groups, so they went along, but then made up their own meaning for "defund" because they knew abolishing the police was stupid. Which has created a lot of confusion. When some say defund they mean defund, when others say it they mean take 5% of the funding away and put it towards something else, and pretty much everything in between.

Glorified KC · August 2020

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.

Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.

I don't want looting, burning or destruction either, but at least I'm trying to wrap my head around a solution. Just bitching about rioters isn't contributing, it's just detracting from the root cause. From what I can remember, each riot that resulting in cities burning was a result of a police beating or killing of a black man. Nothing has changed since Rodney King. Something needs to change.

I also never said to remove cops. I said to allocate budgets elsewhere, that doesn't have to take cops off of the street...

Ledbetterman10 · August 2020

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

dignin said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Or you know the cops could stop killing black people, then things would never get this far.

Or you know black people could stop resisting arrest, then things would never get to the point of escalation. Jacob Blake was wanted on a sexual assault charge. And no, I'm not saying he deserves to be shot for that. And I do think the cops should've had him subdued before he could even walk around the front of his car to the drivers' side door. But if you want to play the one-thing-leads-to-another game, it all starts with him being charged with sexual assault, then not cooperating with the police during the arrest.

I don't know much about it, did they know who he was and that he was wanted for sexual assault and we're they trying to arrest him before they shot him? Honest questions.

Just going by this BBC report, it says...

"Court records show there was an active arrest warrant against Mr Blake, related to charges of sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct. But it is unclear if police were aware of this at the time of his shooting."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53909766

So that, and the 22-second video is all we can really go on at this point.

We also don’t know if Blake knew if he had an arrest warrant. Which all is aside from the fact that arrest warrant or not criminal history or not, cops are not the administers of capital punishment and need to stop killing black people for “resisting arrest”. Because last I saw “resisting arrest” was not a punishable by death with no due process offense.

No, resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. But you sure run the risk of being shot if you walk away from police and reach into your car like that. Would you do that? If the police were questioning you, would you walk away from them, open your car door, and reach in?

I’m not him what I would Do is irrelevant. The main point is that cops could have done many things to avoid shooting him 7 times in the back And likely prevented a riot.

I see. So you wanted me to put myself in his sister's shoes and look at it from her point of view, but you refuse to put yourself in his shoes and consider how you'd handle the situation if you were in it.

Fine I will
play along to your false equivalency argument. The likelihood is that if cops or anyone is coming at me with a gun I going to flee or fight. Can’t say which. Although last(And only) time I had a guN pulled on me I chose fight and disarmed and thoroughly beat the individual. This was a late night mugging scenario and may or may not have been (probably was) stupid on my part. So judging from my one experience having a gun pulled on me I would say it may even be more likely that I would fight especially if I felt that I was doing nothing wrong.

I think cops having guns drawn is pretty different than a mugger having a gun drawn, speaking of false equivalencies. But fortunately you got came away from that mugger incident unscathed, and I don't think that's stupid on your part to fight him. I'd do the same thing if it came to that. But if cops had guns drawn on me, and I felt I was doing nothing wrong, I'd just comply. If I didn't do anything wrong, what can go wrong with complying? To fight them gets you at best a felony charge, and worst, killed.

Now a possible response you or someone else may have to the bolded part, is that's easy for me to say as a white guy. A black guy could have not done something wrong, comply with the police during the arrest, and still get hosed in the court process. That could be true. I've acknowledged systemic racism in this thread and others. But engaging in a fight with the cops during the arrest isn't going to help. Even if you get away, there will be a warrant and you'll be on the run forever.

Bentleyspop · August 2020

Suspect arrested after 2 are killed at Kenosha protest
Https://news.yahoo.com/kenosha-police-3-shot-2-101241058.html

Two people were killed Tuesday night in an attack carried out by a young white man who was caught on cellphone video opening fire in the middle of the street with a semi-automatic rifle.

dankind · August 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

dignin said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Or you know the cops could stop killing black people, then things would never get this far.

Or you know black people could stop resisting arrest, then things would never get to the point of escalation. Jacob Blake was wanted on a sexual assault charge. And no, I'm not saying he deserves to be shot for that. And I do think the cops should've had him subdued before he could even walk around the front of his car to the drivers' side door. But if you want to play the one-thing-leads-to-another game, it all starts with him being charged with sexual assault, then not cooperating with the police during the arrest.

I don't know much about it, did they know who he was and that he was wanted for sexual assault and we're they trying to arrest him before they shot him? Honest questions.

Just going by this BBC report, it says...

"Court records show there was an active arrest warrant against Mr Blake, related to charges of sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct. But it is unclear if police were aware of this at the time of his shooting."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53909766

So that, and the 22-second video is all we can really go on at this point.

We also don’t know if Blake knew if he had an arrest warrant. Which all is aside from the fact that arrest warrant or not criminal history or not, cops are not the administers of capital punishment and need to stop killing black people for “resisting arrest”. Because last I saw “resisting arrest” was not a punishable by death with no due process offense.

No, resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. But you sure run the risk of being shot if you walk away from police and reach into your car like that. Would you do that? If the police were questioning you, would you walk away from them, open your car door, and reach in?

You better believe that every damn time I've been accosted or arrested by a police officer, I've resisted. Weird that I've never been assaulted or shot for it. The last time, maybe a year or so ago, I broke into a full sprint so that I wouldn't miss my train to have to deal with whatever bullshit some knuckle-dragging goon from Southie wearing a badge was yelling at me about. I wasn't even pursued. Weird, right. I wonder why. I think there's an AMT thread about it somewhere....

Ledbetterman10 · August 2020

Bentleyspop said:

Suspect arrested after 2 are killed at Kenosha protest
Https://news.yahoo.com/kenosha-police-3-shot-2-101241058.html

Well that's good. The riots and looting is bad enough without militant-wannabes showing up with AR-15s to kill people. Maybe this will keep out-of-towners away from these scenes.

oftenreading · August 2020

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.

Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.

If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.

OnWis97 · August 2020

Bentleyspop said:

Suspect arrested after 2 are killed at Kenosha protest
Https://news.yahoo.com/kenosha-police-3-shot-2-101241058.html

Two people were killed Tuesday night in an attack carried out by a young white man who was caught on cellphone video opening fire in the middle of the street with a semi-automatic rifle.

Oh god...I hope it really was a semi-automatic rifle or the story is about to get de-fucking-railed.

mcgruff10 · August 2020

oftenreading said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.

Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.

If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.

Maybe we should send in a platoon of social workers instead of armed police and see if the situation improves.

bbiggs · August 2020

oftenreading said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses. The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground. They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them. What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.

So thats a yes?

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question. When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands? I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands. It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people. Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point. Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix. It will take several years to build. What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police? It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently. I don't have the faith that you do. If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens. Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death. The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest. Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem? What is your solution to stop all of this?

Don't have a solution and never claimed to have one. Many here think they have all the answers. I sure as fuck don't. But taking cops off the street to let cities burn to the ground doesn't do a bit of good.

I never said you had one, but if you're going to poke holes in other's logic, at least have something to contribute. Defunding doesn't have to take cops off of the street. Police budgets aren't all just about head count. Plus who's to say cities will burn if there are less cops? Cities are burning because of bad cops. Not every cop is bad, but there is a systemic problem that needs to be issued and just saying less cops = cities to rubble isn't looking further than their hand in front of their face.

Last time I'm going to respond because you and I are running in circles. First, I have had plenty to contribute. To summarize, don't take cops off the street and expect people to behave. We're getting a crystal clear picture how that works out and it isn't pretty. Also, don't condone looting and vandalism as acceptable behavior to combat racial inequality. You disagree with my stance and that's fine. I disagree with yours in that removing cops will better the situation. So let's move on. Second, who's to say cities will burn with less cops? Ummm, have you turned on the news lately? They are literally burning. This is not a figure of speech. You can champion your position and I can champion mine. Neither of us want people being shot or beaten, and additionally, I don't want looting, burning or destruction.

If cities are “literally burning” now, it is with the current complement of police, not in a defunded situation. Your speculation that things would be worse if police departments were altered in some way is just speculation, with no evidence. It’s also entirely possible that the situation in these cities would improve, if fewer police were harassing and assaulting their citizens.

Wrong. Not speculation. I know for a fact that police presence has been lessened in Chicago and there has been mayhem as a result. Fact. If you want to speculate that fewer police will lead to a eutopian city, have at it.

FiveBelow · August 2020

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

^ Beating up innocent, elderly business owners while destructing cities is all part of the process for necessary change. Didn’t you know?

In case this needs to be said, yes, I’m being sarcastic.

You're not going to find anyone here who thinks that okay, so why the strawman?

Looting, burning buildings and destructing is condoned and rationalized all the time here.

I missed the ones about beating up 70 year olds. Maybe point me to those ones, the ones you were making reference too.

Well, maybe if you read my comment, you'd understand that I didn't say anything about "finding anyone here who thinks that's okay." The point is that if necessary change is the objective, looting, burning, destructing and beating is not the way to accomplish it. They all go hand in hand these days.

Maybe some people can understand but not condone the looting and destruction of property but not the assault on an elderly man (like you have obviously implied as a cheap shot). The two don't have to go hand in hand.

Easily understandable, no need to question the last 3 months of damage and destruction. If something doesn’t change now at the current rate we will have 250,000 more people who will die at the hands of police by the year 2270. Although only a fraction of those will actually be due to undeniable poor practice, which everyone agrees is wrong. Here is some perspective for you if you choose to believe a study by Johns Hopkins, 250,000 people die in this country every year due to medical malpractice. Weird, I must have missed all of the hospitals and private practices in flames. Where is the outrage against all of these evil doctors killing 250x more people per year than the police? Maybe the situation in this country is so understandable for you because your reality is just television and mouse clicks. Does the Canadian media take every isolated incident it can and overnight make it national news to force feed a narrative? Seems like a good way to cause what we are currently seeing, I know this will come as a shock but there are many of us that think this is doing more harm than good.

cutz · August 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos.

Man, I hate to say it but I'm surprised something like this didn't already happen sooner.

Fucking chaos is right.

static111 · August 2020

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

dignin said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

static111 said:

Or you know the cops could stop killing black people, then things would never get this far.

Or you know black people could stop resisting arrest, then things would never get to the point of escalation. Jacob Blake was wanted on a sexual assault charge. And no, I'm not saying he deserves to be shot for that. And I do think the cops should've had him subdued before he could even walk around the front of his car to the drivers' side door. But if you want to play the one-thing-leads-to-another game, it all starts with him being charged with sexual assault, then not cooperating with the police during the arrest.

I don't know much about it, did they know who he was and that he was wanted for sexual assault and we're they trying to arrest him before they shot him? Honest questions.

Just going by this BBC report, it says...

"Court records show there was an active arrest warrant against Mr Blake, related to charges of sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct. But it is unclear if police were aware of this at the time of his shooting."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53909766

So that, and the 22-second video is all we can really go on at this point.

We also don’t know if Blake knew if he had an arrest warrant. Which all is aside from the fact that arrest warrant or not criminal history or not, cops are not the administers of capital punishment and need to stop killing black people for “resisting arrest”. Because last I saw “resisting arrest” was not a punishable by death with no due process offense.

No, resisting arrest isn't punishable by death. But you sure run the risk of being shot if you walk away from police and reach into your car like that. Would you do that? If the police were questioning you, would you walk away from them, open your car door, and reach in?

I’m not him what I would Do is irrelevant. The main point is that cops could have done many things to avoid shooting him 7 times in the back And likely prevented a riot.

I see. So you wanted me to put myself in his sister's shoes and look at it from her point of view, but you refuse to put yourself in his shoes and consider how you'd handle the situation if you were in it.

Fine I will
play along to your false equivalency argument. The likelihood is that if cops or anyone is coming at me with a gun I going to flee or fight. Can’t say which. Although last(And only) time I had a guN pulled on me I chose fight and disarmed and thoroughly beat the individual. This was a late night mugging scenario and may or may not have been (probably was) stupid on my part. So judging from my one experience having a gun pulled on me I would say it may even be more likely that I would fight especially if I felt that I was doing nothing wrong.

I think cops having guns drawn is pretty different than a mugger having a gun drawn, speaking of false equivalencies. But fortunately you got came away from that mugger incident unscathed, and I don't think that's stupid on your part to fight him. I'd do the same thing if it came to that. But if cops had guns drawn on me, and I felt I was doing nothing wrong, I'd just comply. If I didn't do anything wrong, what can go wrong with complying? To fight them gets you at best a felony charge, and worst, killed.

Now a possible response you or someone else may have to the bolded part, is that's easy for me to say as a white guy. A black guy could have not done something wrong, comply with the police during the arrest, and still get hosed in the court process. That could be true. I've acknowledged systemic racism in this thread and others. But engaging in a fight with the cops during the arrest isn't going to help. Even if you get away, there will be a warrant and you'll be on the run forever.

Fair enough. It sounds like everybody wants the same thing here. I am just of the mind that the root cause of police violence And culture needs to be addressed first, for any other changes such as not having violent eruptions at every police use of force to follow. The spark of all these incidents is the state sanctioned violence against citizens. I really believe that if you change the culture of the police and address some of the inequities Of race in our society that these extreme forms of protest will stop.

Riots/Looting/Violence and general post-George Floyd madness

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