Riots/Looting/Violence and general post-George Floyd madness

Ledbetterman10

PJNB said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJNB said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots  two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos. 

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses.  The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground.  They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them.  What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.  

So thats a yes? 

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot 
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation 
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Yep. And there's just so many opportunists. When a black man get shot by police like Blake did the other day, sure there's a lot of people that are legitimately angry about it. But there's others that simply revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to loot and riot. And with all that going on, there's opportunists that revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to walk around with assault weapons shooting people. 

While agree that there are many people that feel inclined to take the law into their own hands with this shit going on to protect themselves and their property, there's also crazies that look at it as an opportunity to just kill people. If you're a far-right militia outfit looking to harm people, a place like Kenosha (now) or Portland (over the past few months) is where you'd go to do it. 

Great points on both paragraphs. 

My wife had her business she owns vandalized back in April. Someone drove through the front window and actually ended up in the clinic and went through some stuff. My wifes business is not the type of business that you would rob so why this was done is unknown to us. If I was there at the time and I feared for my life I would not have hesitated to take the person down by any means necessary. 

Now in the above case if I knew their would be riots going on and my wifes business was at risk due to all of the above points from Cincy would I stand in front of the clinic and protect it by any means necessary? Fuck no. That is what insurance is for and the above incident was covered 100% here. 

I do realize that it maybe different for other people however and could mean their livelihood is ruined forever. Does this mean that you should kill people that are trying to loot your store? I do not think so but that is just me and am definitely not in that situation where the riots are happening. If I was maybe my opinion would be different I am not sure. 

That sucks that happened to your wife's business, and since it sounds like an isolated incident done by some lone lunatic, I can totally understand you taking the guy down by any means necessary if you were there. I'd do the same.

But like you said, in one of these cities that's devolved into complete madness, I wouldn't be standing out front defending my business from a mob. What good is going to come of that? Either I'd get shot, or I'd be forced to shoot someone. I don't want anything to do with either of those scenarios. 

I think the type of people that would be doing the protecting have to be coming from two groups (and I could be wrong with this). Those that are starving due to covid already and can not survive with their business on fire or they are the type that are looking for a reason to kill/hurt people. If early reports are true on this one, often times they are not, then this looks like an incident where the people doing the killing where looking for a reason to do so. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple of days and if others start to follow suit "protecting" businesses.  

I think, in the case of Kenosha last night, it's more people looking to cause harm under the guise of protecting businesses than actual business owners protecting their own businesses. 

PJPOWER

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJNB said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJNB said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots  two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos. 

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses.  The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground.  They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them.  What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.  

So thats a yes? 

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot 
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation 
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Yep. And there's just so many opportunists. When a black man get shot by police like Blake did the other day, sure there's a lot of people that are legitimately angry about it. But there's others that simply revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to loot and riot. And with all that going on, there's opportunists that revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to walk around with assault weapons shooting people. 

While agree that there are many people that feel inclined to take the law into their own hands with this shit going on to protect themselves and their property, there's also crazies that look at it as an opportunity to just kill people. If you're a far-right militia outfit looking to harm people, a place like Kenosha (now) or Portland (over the past few months) is where you'd go to do it. 

Great points on both paragraphs. 

My wife had her business she owns vandalized back in April. Someone drove through the front window and actually ended up in the clinic and went through some stuff. My wifes business is not the type of business that you would rob so why this was done is unknown to us. If I was there at the time and I feared for my life I would not have hesitated to take the person down by any means necessary. 

Now in the above case if I knew their would be riots going on and my wifes business was at risk due to all of the above points from Cincy would I stand in front of the clinic and protect it by any means necessary? Fuck no. That is what insurance is for and the above incident was covered 100% here. 

I do realize that it maybe different for other people however and could mean their livelihood is ruined forever. Does this mean that you should kill people that are trying to loot your store? I do not think so but that is just me and am definitely not in that situation where the riots are happening. If I was maybe my opinion would be different I am not sure. 

That sucks that happened to your wife's business, and since it sounds like an isolated incident done by some lone lunatic, I can totally understand you taking the guy down by any means necessary if you were there. I'd do the same.

But like you said, in one of these cities that's devolved into complete madness, I wouldn't be standing out front defending my business from a mob. What good is going to come of that? Either I'd get shot, or I'd be forced to shoot someone. I don't want anything to do with either of those scenarios. 

I think the type of people that would be doing the protecting have to be coming from two groups (and I could be wrong with this). Those that are starving due to covid already and can not survive with their business on fire or they are the type that are looking for a reason to kill/hurt people. If early reports are true on this one, often times they are not, then this looks like an incident where the people doing the killing where looking for a reason to do so. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple of days and if others start to follow suit "protecting" businesses.  

I think, in the case of Kenosha last night, it's more people looking to cause harm under the guise of protecting businesses than actual business owners protecting their own businesses. 

Similar to the opportunists under the guise of BLM looking to cause harm.  They are all getting what they have been begging for.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Ledbetterman10

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJNB said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJNB said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots  two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos. 

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses.  The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground.  They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them.  What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.  

So thats a yes? 

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot 
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation 
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Yep. And there's just so many opportunists. When a black man get shot by police like Blake did the other day, sure there's a lot of people that are legitimately angry about it. But there's others that simply revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to loot and riot. And with all that going on, there's opportunists that revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to walk around with assault weapons shooting people. 

While agree that there are many people that feel inclined to take the law into their own hands with this shit going on to protect themselves and their property, there's also crazies that look at it as an opportunity to just kill people. If you're a far-right militia outfit looking to harm people, a place like Kenosha (now) or Portland (over the past few months) is where you'd go to do it. 

Great points on both paragraphs. 

My wife had her business she owns vandalized back in April. Someone drove through the front window and actually ended up in the clinic and went through some stuff. My wifes business is not the type of business that you would rob so why this was done is unknown to us. If I was there at the time and I feared for my life I would not have hesitated to take the person down by any means necessary. 

Now in the above case if I knew their would be riots going on and my wifes business was at risk due to all of the above points from Cincy would I stand in front of the clinic and protect it by any means necessary? Fuck no. That is what insurance is for and the above incident was covered 100% here. 

I do realize that it maybe different for other people however and could mean their livelihood is ruined forever. Does this mean that you should kill people that are trying to loot your store? I do not think so but that is just me and am definitely not in that situation where the riots are happening. If I was maybe my opinion would be different I am not sure. 

That sucks that happened to your wife's business, and since it sounds like an isolated incident done by some lone lunatic, I can totally understand you taking the guy down by any means necessary if you were there. I'd do the same.

But like you said, in one of these cities that's devolved into complete madness, I wouldn't be standing out front defending my business from a mob. What good is going to come of that? Either I'd get shot, or I'd be forced to shoot someone. I don't want anything to do with either of those scenarios. 

I think the type of people that would be doing the protecting have to be coming from two groups (and I could be wrong with this). Those that are starving due to covid already and can not survive with their business on fire or they are the type that are looking for a reason to kill/hurt people. If early reports are true on this one, often times they are not, then this looks like an incident where the people doing the killing where looking for a reason to do so. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple of days and if others start to follow suit "protecting" businesses.  

I think, in the case of Kenosha last night, it's more people looking to cause harm under the guise of protecting businesses than actual business owners protecting their own businesses. 

Similar to the opportunists under the guise of BLM looking to cause harm.  They are all getting what they have been begging for.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Yeah I agree. I said earlier in response to your post about one thing leading to another.....

"Yep. And there's just so many opportunists. When a black man get shot by police like Blake did the other day, sure there's a lot of people that are legitimately angry about it. But there's others that simply revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to loot and riot. And with all that going on, there's opportunists that revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to walk around with assault weapons shooting people. 

While agree that there are many people that feel inclined to take the law into their own hands with this shit going on to protect themselves and their property, there's also crazies that look at it as an opportunity to just kill people. If you're a far-right militia outfit looking to harm people, a place like Kenosha (now) or Portland (over the past few months) is where you'd go to do it."

Halifax2TheMax

For anyone interested in some of the underlying issues in Wisconsin and the nation, by someone who’s reported on Wisconsin for 20 years. Maybe it’ll help some to understand the issues?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/opinions/kenosha-shooting-jacob-blake-prison-injustice-police-lockwood/index.html

nicknyr15

Halifax2TheMax said:

For anyone interested in some of the underlying issues in Wisconsin and the nation, by someone who’s reported on Wisconsin for 20 years. Maybe it’ll help some to understand the issues?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/opinions/kenosha-shooting-jacob-blake-prison-injustice-police-lockwood/index.html

Boooo waaahhh no. CNN. 

bbiggs

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots  two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos. 

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses.  The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground.  They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them.  What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.  

So thats a yes? 

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot 
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation 
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question.  When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands?  I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

dignin

PJPOWER said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

^ Beating up innocent, elderly business owners while destructing cities is all part of the process for necessary change.  Didn’t you know? 

In case this needs to be said, yes, I’m being sarcastic. 

You're not going to find anyone here who thinks that okay, so why the strawman?

Looting, burning buildings and destructing is condoned and rationalized all the time here.  

I missed the ones about beating up 70 year olds. Maybe point me to those ones, the ones you were making reference too.

Well, maybe if you read my comment, you'd understand that I didn't say anything about "finding anyone here who thinks that's okay."  The point is that if necessary change is the objective, looting, burning, destructing and beating is not the way to accomplish it.  They all go hand in hand these days.

Maybe some people can understand but not condone the looting and destruction of property but not the assault on an elderly man (like you have obviously implied as a cheap shot). The two don't have to go hand in hand.  

I, for one, think that anyone that condones looting, destruction of property, or assaulting innocents is an asshat deplorable.

But you condone armed men murdering those looters. 

That's pretty fucked up.

Halifax2TheMax

nicknyr15 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

For anyone interested in some of the underlying issues in Wisconsin and the nation, by someone who’s reported on Wisconsin for 20 years. Maybe it’ll help some to understand the issues?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/opinions/kenosha-shooting-jacob-blake-prison-injustice-police-lockwood/index.html

Boooo waaahhh no. CNN. 

It’s an opinion piece, clearly identified as such in the by-line, by a woman who lives in and has covered social justice issues in Wisconsin for over 20 years, including the neighborhood where Jacob Blake was shot. But close your eyes and wait for Rupert Murdoch to tell you what the underlying issues in Wisconsin might be.

bbiggs

brianlux said:

The violence, looting, burning can be explained (as some have done here very well).  So in some ways, I get it.  But I sure as hell can't support it.  Targeting people who are not directly and personally responsible for the problems of racism makes zero sense.  I have to look at both sides of it.  I've been reading about shit getting burned to the ground since the 60's.  Has it stopped racism?  Obviously not.  Has it fucked up the lives of people who are just working hard to make a living?  Obviously so. 

I would say to anyone supporting the notion of burning building and businesses as a way to stop racism, they might want to look at both sides.  What has it gained?  NOTHING.

And what if it was your building, your business?  Your years of hard work?  And that's what owning a business is- damn hard work.  Most small business owners work long hours and never really leave the job.  It's what you do.  Sure, some business owners are shysters, rip off artist, maybe blatant racists.  But most are not.  Most are good, hard working, independent people. 

I've been a small-time small business owner for 14 years and even at my level- it's hard work! My wife has been a small business owner for 36 years.  It's hard work.  And we don't live in a McMansion or have disgruntled employees or rip people off.  I personally know several small business owners.  They all fucking work hard.  They're good people.  Yes, the anger is understandable, but the vast majority of these people don't deserve the wrath that is visited upon them. 

Don't use racism as an excuse to fuck up innocent people.  Just don't do it.  More people need to take that energy and work to make change in constructive ways.  Start a fire?  Easy.  BFD.  Pretty much anyone with some gas and a match can do that.  But to make constructive change through strong effort and creativity?  That takes hard work.  DO the HARD work.

LIsten to John.  He knows.  HARD WORK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrppyREk4FA

Well said as usual, Brian.  Misdirecting anger at innocent, hard-working folks that have spent years or decades building something is complete garbage.  As you said, any schmuck with a match and some gas can burn something to the ground or break a window to steal something.  Putting in the hard work, like the business owners they are destroying, is another story.

PJPOWER

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJNB said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJNB said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots  two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos. 

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses.  The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground.  They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them.  What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.  

So thats a yes? 

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot 
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation 
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Yep. And there's just so many opportunists. When a black man get shot by police like Blake did the other day, sure there's a lot of people that are legitimately angry about it. But there's others that simply revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to loot and riot. And with all that going on, there's opportunists that revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to walk around with assault weapons shooting people. 

While agree that there are many people that feel inclined to take the law into their own hands with this shit going on to protect themselves and their property, there's also crazies that look at it as an opportunity to just kill people. If you're a far-right militia outfit looking to harm people, a place like Kenosha (now) or Portland (over the past few months) is where you'd go to do it. 

Great points on both paragraphs. 

My wife had her business she owns vandalized back in April. Someone drove through the front window and actually ended up in the clinic and went through some stuff. My wifes business is not the type of business that you would rob so why this was done is unknown to us. If I was there at the time and I feared for my life I would not have hesitated to take the person down by any means necessary. 

Now in the above case if I knew their would be riots going on and my wifes business was at risk due to all of the above points from Cincy would I stand in front of the clinic and protect it by any means necessary? Fuck no. That is what insurance is for and the above incident was covered 100% here. 

I do realize that it maybe different for other people however and could mean their livelihood is ruined forever. Does this mean that you should kill people that are trying to loot your store? I do not think so but that is just me and am definitely not in that situation where the riots are happening. If I was maybe my opinion would be different I am not sure. 

That sucks that happened to your wife's business, and since it sounds like an isolated incident done by some lone lunatic, I can totally understand you taking the guy down by any means necessary if you were there. I'd do the same.

But like you said, in one of these cities that's devolved into complete madness, I wouldn't be standing out front defending my business from a mob. What good is going to come of that? Either I'd get shot, or I'd be forced to shoot someone. I don't want anything to do with either of those scenarios. 

I think the type of people that would be doing the protecting have to be coming from two groups (and I could be wrong with this). Those that are starving due to covid already and can not survive with their business on fire or they are the type that are looking for a reason to kill/hurt people. If early reports are true on this one, often times they are not, then this looks like an incident where the people doing the killing where looking for a reason to do so. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next couple of days and if others start to follow suit "protecting" businesses.  

I think, in the case of Kenosha last night, it's more people looking to cause harm under the guise of protecting businesses than actual business owners protecting their own businesses. 

Similar to the opportunists under the guise of BLM looking to cause harm.  They are all getting what they have been begging for.  Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Yeah I agree. I said earlier in response to your post about one thing leading to another.....

"Yep. And there's just so many opportunists. When a black man get shot by police like Blake did the other day, sure there's a lot of people that are legitimately angry about it. But there's others that simply revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to loot and riot. And with all that going on, there's opportunists that revel in the fact that it opens up an opportunity to walk around with assault weapons shooting people. 

While agree that there are many people that feel inclined to take the law into their own hands with this shit going on to protect themselves and their property, there's also crazies that look at it as an opportunity to just kill people. If you're a far-right militia outfit looking to harm people, a place like Kenosha (now) or Portland (over the past few months) is where you'd go to do it."

I totally agree and I was not calling you out, reaffirming more so.  
This has also been seen in the Seattle “CHAZ” where a couple of kids were shot by BLM opportunists.  

Glorified KC

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots  two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos. 

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses.  The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground.  They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them.  What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.  

So thats a yes? 

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot 
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation 
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question.  When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands?  I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands.  It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people.  Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point.  Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix.  It will take several years to build.  What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police?  It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

PJPOWER

dignin said:

PJPOWER said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

^ Beating up innocent, elderly business owners while destructing cities is all part of the process for necessary change.  Didn’t you know? 

In case this needs to be said, yes, I’m being sarcastic. 

You're not going to find anyone here who thinks that okay, so why the strawman?

Looting, burning buildings and destructing is condoned and rationalized all the time here.  

I missed the ones about beating up 70 year olds. Maybe point me to those ones, the ones you were making reference too.

Well, maybe if you read my comment, you'd understand that I didn't say anything about "finding anyone here who thinks that's okay."  The point is that if necessary change is the objective, looting, burning, destructing and beating is not the way to accomplish it.  They all go hand in hand these days.

Maybe some people can understand but not condone the looting and destruction of property but not the assault on an elderly man (like you have obviously implied as a cheap shot). The two don't have to go hand in hand.  

I, for one, think that anyone that condones looting, destruction of property, or assaulting innocents is an asshat deplorable.

But you condone armed men murdering those looters. 

That's pretty fucked up.

No, I am not condoning murder.  I condone people stopping looters and protecting themselves and their property by whatever means they need to do so.  You condone looting, that’s fucked up.
I’m actually surprised we have not seen more of this.

Ledbetterman10

PJPOWER said:

I totally agree and I was not calling you out, reaffirming more so.  
This has also been seen in the Seattle “CHAZ” where a couple of kids were shot by BLM opportunists.  

I know. I was reiterating that this cycle of violence is crazy. Basically the cycle seems to be....

-Unarmed black man resists arrest
-Cops fail in deescalating situation, end up shooting black man
-Protests begin
-Riots and looting begin
-Violent militant types show up and add to the chaos

PJPOWER

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJPOWER said:

I totally agree and I was not calling you out, reaffirming more so.  
This has also been seen in the Seattle “CHAZ” where a couple of kids were shot by BLM opportunists.  

I know. I was reiterating that this cycle of violence is crazy. Basically the cycle seems to be....

-Unarmed black man resists arrest
-Cops fail in deescalating situation, end up shooting black man
-Protests begin
-Riots and looting begin
-Violent militant types show up and add to the chaos

Yes, seems to be the natural progression.

bbiggs

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots  two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos. 

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses.  The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground.  They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them.  What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.  

So thats a yes? 

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot 
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation 
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question.  When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands?  I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands.  It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people.  Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point.  Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix.  It will take several years to build.  What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police?  It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently.  I don't have the faith that you do.  If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens.  Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

Ledbetterman10

Halifax2TheMax said:

For anyone interested in some of the underlying issues in Wisconsin and the nation, by someone who’s reported on Wisconsin for 20 years. Maybe it’ll help some to understand the issues?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/opinions/kenosha-shooting-jacob-blake-prison-injustice-police-lockwood/index.html

I don't think anybody here disputes that there's systemic racism in policing (and society in general). But torching furniture stores to the ground isn't going to solve it. The day George Floyd was killed, they burned the police prescient in Minneapolis. Not advisable, but at least that's taking your ire out on who you perceive is persecuting you. There's no car dealerships persecuting black people. 

PJNB

PJPOWER said:

dignin said:

PJPOWER said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

dignin said:

bbiggs said:

^ Beating up innocent, elderly business owners while destructing cities is all part of the process for necessary change.  Didn’t you know? 

In case this needs to be said, yes, I’m being sarcastic. 

You're not going to find anyone here who thinks that okay, so why the strawman?

Looting, burning buildings and destructing is condoned and rationalized all the time here.  

I missed the ones about beating up 70 year olds. Maybe point me to those ones, the ones you were making reference too.

Well, maybe if you read my comment, you'd understand that I didn't say anything about "finding anyone here who thinks that's okay."  The point is that if necessary change is the objective, looting, burning, destructing and beating is not the way to accomplish it.  They all go hand in hand these days.

Maybe some people can understand but not condone the looting and destruction of property but not the assault on an elderly man (like you have obviously implied as a cheap shot). The two don't have to go hand in hand.  

I, for one, think that anyone that condones looting, destruction of property, or assaulting innocents is an asshat deplorable.

But you condone armed men murdering those looters. 

That's pretty fucked up.

No, I am not condoning murder.  I condone people stopping looters and protecting themselves and their property by whatever means they need to do so.  You condone looting, that’s fucked up.

Is that not murder or am I missing something here? Is there a law in the USA that allows you to sit in front of a business and shoot people that potentially are going to loot it? Even if they are in the act of looting are you really just allowed to mow them down? Serious question as I really have no clue how the law works. Like if a guy throws a brick through a window can you really just shoot them down if they are going in grabbing a bag of Doritos and leaving? 

static111

nicknyr15 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

For anyone interested in some of the underlying issues in Wisconsin and the nation, by someone who’s reported on Wisconsin for 20 years. Maybe it’ll help some to understand the issues?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/opinions/kenosha-shooting-jacob-blake-prison-injustice-police-lockwood/index.html

Boooo waaahhh no. CNN. 

The platform is CNNs webpage. The actual writer is not CNN staff, but a Wisconsin local that has been covering the intersection of criminal justice and the black community for 20 years in and around Kenosha.  Facts are pretty straightforward and without a slant, unless of course you see CNN and have been programmed to think Fake News. Things have been building in Kenosha like they have everywhere and this shooting was the tipping point. Fairly unbiased information and worth reading if you can get over the publishers name.

Glorified KC

bbiggs said:

Glorified KC said:

bbiggs said:

cincybearcat said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

PJNB said:

PJPOWER said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Shit is out of control. One of the rioters was shot in the head in Kenosha last night:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1298484404918972417?s=21

And there was a madman with an assault-style weapon shooting people. Not sure if it’s the same guy that shot the guy in the first video. But he shoots  two people at short range in this video:

Graphic:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1298507433975799809?s=21

Just complete and utter fucking chaos. 

There ya have it...That is going to be the result of looting and burning people’s businesses.  The business owners can not afford to just let their businesses get burned to the ground.  They are going to start fighting back...and I don’t blame them.  What did they think would happen?

You think its ok to execute someone for looting?

I think it’s okay for people to protect their property.  

So thats a yes? 

It's not a great question, you are pretending it's all happening in a vacuum.

It's Newton's 3rd law.

1) Cops shoot black man in back
2) Protests
3) People using protest to destroy and loot 
4) Leadership fails to adequately handle the situation 
5) People take action into their own hands

Stupid gun laws + stupid police norms + stupid looters = Kenosha, WI

When we leave regular citizens to make the determination on appropriate level of force....we are in big trouble

Trick question.  When this de-funding of the police movement continues to progress, do we think more or less people will start taking matters into their own hands?  I think we're seeing the answer very clearly.

Less, because the idea is there will be less situations for those to "take matters" into whomever's hands.  It's about trying to rebuild the community infrastructure, because it has suffered from decades of neglect from white people vacating those neighborhoods because they couldn't handle the thought of equality with black people.  Rather than stay and continue to sustain or further build the economy, they jumped ship and it was left behind to people who couldn't financially support what had been built to that point.  Defunding the police, or better said to try to build communities through pushing more budget toward public services is not a short-term fix.  It will take several years to build.  What short-term fix in the past 50 years has made it more safe for a black person when apprehended by police?  It's this constant "retraining" or "reform" that is nothing more than a CYA that constantly moves the system laterally.

You're a trusting man, apparently.  I don't have the faith that you do.  If what you say is correct and this de-funding movement results in some better world, I'm not sure what will be left standing by the time that happens.  Might as well scrape these cities and start from the ground up at this rate.

The reason why this shit is happening is because there are black men still being gunned down or strangled to death.  The opportunists can't find an opportunity to burn cities to the ground if there isn't a reason to protest.  Jesus, you think what is going on right now is going to fix the problem?  What is your solution to stop all of this?

static111

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

For anyone interested in some of the underlying issues in Wisconsin and the nation, by someone who’s reported on Wisconsin for 20 years. Maybe it’ll help some to understand the issues?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/25/opinions/kenosha-shooting-jacob-blake-prison-injustice-police-lockwood/index.html

I don't think anybody here disputes that there's systemic racism in policing (and society in general). But torching furniture stores to the ground isn't going to solve it. The day George Floyd was killed, they burned the police prescient in Minneapolis. Not advisable, but at least that's taking your ire out on who you perceive is persecuting you. There's no car dealerships persecuting black people. 

Not true historically.  And perhaps not the car dealership in question, but I certainly think that as a blanket statement there’s no car dealerships persecuting black people is false.  I’m sure there are racist dealership owners , salespeople and car loan officers to this day.