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  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,604
    Cuomo messed up.  My governor (Walz, Dem, MN) messed up. My employer was slow to react (though I don't think it got anyone killed).  The difference is, as Poncier points out above, this was on the fly when it was all new. People acting in good faith were going to have missteps. Hilary would have. Obama would have.  I would have. You would have. 

    Trump? At best, he fucked up and continues to fuck up. Why? First, he cares only about his own election. Second, he doesn't have the critical thinking skills to see any nuance. He went all in on "the economy" because that was viewed as his strong point.  He didn't have it in him to attempt to balance the economy and the pandemic. Everything is black-and-white.  The GOP governors?  I won't speak to most of 'em but DeSantis is a Trump boot-licker and behaved as such every step of the way.

    One of the unfortunate parts of the story is that most of the places impacted early (Seattle, NYC, etc.) tend to be very "blue."  It enables to say that the Dems are messing it up and enables Trumpies to not really care because "the real America" was still doing OK.

    We might not want this to be about Trump. Or about Dem vs. GOP. But to an extent it is.  GOP leadership has been awful and rooted in denial about the significance and in fear that a bad economy will impact their stranglehold on control.  Their attempt to create a one-party system has clouded everything they do.

    Yes, there are times both sides bring Trump in where it doesn't quite seem necessary...particularly "It's all a conspiracy against Trump."  But Trump is a big part of it. The conspiracy theories exist because of dedication to him.  "Everyone has been lying to you and Trump is here to tell you the truth!"
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  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,604
    mcgruff10 said:
    I always believed the state level was more important than the federal level.

    Probably true.  But even that gets arbitrary at times.  Northern Cali vs. LA, etc.  That's why you have to love Georgia's governor prohibiting local control. Localized control is a staple of US conservative philosophy; until it isn't.
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  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 6,963
    pjl44 said:
    There's this weird desire to make it a red/blue thing or attempt to look at success/failure through the lens of Trump. It always results in a fundamental misunderstanding of what is happening. 
    There’s scattered logic all over the place on this. Look at CA currently.  Blue as blue gets, strict early lockdowns, didn’t open too early, not a “mouth breather” state, yet they’re getting hammered.  The red/blue argument doesn’t carry weight there. 
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,987
    bbiggs said:
    There’s scattered logic all over the place on this. Look at CA currently.  Blue as blue gets, strict early lockdowns, didn’t open too early, not a “mouth breather” state, yet they’re getting hammered.  The red/blue argument doesn’t carry weight there. 
    So what makes a state a "mouth-breather" state? 
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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,807
    tish said:
    I made an informed decision last June and sent mine off to school Mon-Tues (they cleaned Wednesday before the Thur-Fri group).

    It was a hard call, but let's face it, we are a smart group here! It was a calculated risk, I kept my eye on the numbers.  It went off without a hitch in my case. Best wishes for you and your family.
    That’s similar to what we announce about 6 weeks ago. 2 groups, each go for 2 days. But about 2 weeks ago they announced they scrapped that idea and are going full day every day.
    Doesnt make sense to me. We had to cut staff, so class sizes will be 30-34 kids in a packed room, most without windows. Our lunches and passing periods are crazy. So there is going to be zero social distancing going on.
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,478
    edited July 2020
    JW269453 said:
    So NY, NJ & MA are the 3 highest death states and obviously those with early infection. Maybe and this is a huge stretch, those states are in a better place right now because they are not in the middle of the spread but rather on the tail end. Crazy of me to view this from a non political position, I know.

    Haha, yeah, that must be it.

    This makes way more sense than what all the experts have been saying for months.

    DeSantis is the victim of miss happenstance. There was nothing he could have done to curb the virus, nobody saw it coming.

    Haha.
    Post edited by dignin on
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 12,732

    The federal government's response was to ignore the problem and dump it on the states. ("I take no responsibility" - great leader we have here... really inspires us to 'be best' doesn't he?)  


    As far as reported numbers of cases and deaths go, literally no other country in the world has handled this as poorly as America.

    That's worth repeating: as far as reported numbers of cases and deaths go, literally no other country in the world has handled this as poorly as America.


    American Exceptionalism my ass.

  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,604
    I have to admit that I'm glad not to have kids...it sound like a gut-wrenching decision.  I don't have any idea what I'd do...

    This is no way for adults to live, much less kids.  Kids spending this much time at home is awful.
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 41,899
    The whining about being challenged on the posts that get posted is really nauseating. Back your shit up and stop being a snowflake. Red states could have been heroes in this by seeing what the blue states did wrong. But yea, science, waaaaaaaaaaaa.
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 41,899
    Nobody stopped nobody from “criticizing their mayor.” #cancelculture
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  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 6,963
    So what makes a state a "mouth-breather" state? 

    You're asking the wrong guy, bud.  I learned that term here, as it is so frequently used.  I have a pretty good idea what the folks that use it mean though. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,619
    If any of you ever visit El Dorado County, California, PLEASE do not eat at Apple Bistro on Hwy 50.  These people are disgusting:
    Image may contain 2 people

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  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177

    The federal government's response was to ignore the problem and dump it on the states. ("I take no responsibility" - great leader we have here... really inspires us to 'be best' doesn't he?)  


    As far as reported numbers of cases and deaths go, literally no other country in the world has handled this as poorly as America.

    That's worth repeating: as far as reported numbers of cases and deaths go, literally no other country in the world has handled this as poorly as America.


    American Exceptionalism my ass.

    We're exceptionally divided. Exceptionally short-sighted. Exceptionally arrogant (with little reason to be). Yup, we're exceptional - in the same way Russia and Brazil are.
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  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,987
    bbiggs said:
    You're asking the wrong guy, bud.  I learned that term here, as it is so frequently used.  I have a pretty good idea what the folks that use it mean though. 
    Oh well if it's used here, I'll go out on a limb and assume they're referring to "red" states. 
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  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 6,963
    Oh well if it's used here, I'll go out on a limb and assume they're referring to "red" states. 
    Bingo.  That is my assumption too.  I don't actually use the term myself.  I've learned a lot of new terms from frequenting these threads.

  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,720
    nicknyr15 said:
    It’s weird to hear people saying NY did a great job. We lost what, 30k people? I think actual NYers were scared shit then did a good job wearing masks and staying home. If NY was a red state I’m sure people would be all over our death count and the nursing home debacle. 

    The majority of NY infections were locked in during March. The virus was imbedded in the NY metro area before it had a chance to put in place the generally accepted safety protocols of today. What is accepted as true now was not known to be effective then.

    How a state responded before and after knowing what to do makes a difference, to me at least. Not saying that Cuomo and de blaze didn’t screw up. They did, but they changed course within 10 days and bent the curve downward 95%. Not many states can make that claim. The states that are now giving the middle finger to safety protocols in order to please their supreme leader is quite different IMO.
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,720
    Poncier said:
    dignin did say "Currently" in his post.
    New York and by extension New Jersey had a horrible time of things in  March & April, some of that certainly is due to Cuomo's decisions but we were all learning on the fly at that point. A lot of that early surge also just has to do with NYC being the major hub for international travel through 3 airports, population density and a very busy mass transit system and the virus silently spreading before we knew what hit us.
    Nursing homes were a complete failure for sure, but since beginning to open up, northeast states seems to have a far better handle on things than our neighbors to the south and west.
    That's the point I took.


    I just made a very similar point. Interested  if we get a specific reply.

    On conservative forums all they care about is attacking Cuomo. All I care about is states bending the curve down 95%. I don’t care if my guv is dem or rep in this issue . All the red staters care about is why should we listen to you, your state killed more than anyone else. Geez trumpers , pick any state or EU country that bent the curve down. They’re not hard to find. It’s basically any modern country or northeastern state. 

    america is a screwed up place.
  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,586
    The question of whether or not to return kids to school is our Kobayashi Maru.
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  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,355
    A strong leader might not get it right every time, but they'll demonstrate a capacity to learn, grow, and get a handle on a situation. I don't think there's any doubt that Cuomo has exhibited that leadership quality immensely better than Trump has. At least when Cuomo initially got it wrong - he did so while trying to actually be a leader, not trying to foment hate and division (Trump's knee-jerk reaction to nearly everything). And damn, did he turn it around.
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  • nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 9,186
    Nobody stopped nobody from “criticizing their mayor.” #cancelculture
    You’re so funny. Honestly. Borderline insane with your weird phrases, nicknames and now hashtags. Never said you stopped me, nor would you ever. I just said it went right to Trump. If I brought up a roll of Duct tape, you’d bring up Trump. It’s who you are. You can’t help it. It’s all good. 
  • FiveBelowFiveBelow Posts: 1,331
    dignin said:
    Haha, yeah, that must be it.

    This makes way more sense than what all the experts have been saying for months.

    DeSantis is the victim of miss happenstance. There was nothing he could have done to curb the virus, nobody saw it coming.

    Haha.
    We know the northeast was hit the hardest early on, and now because the spread was slowed for a couple of months it is now spiking in other highly populated areas that took some time to get to because of the measures that were put into place. Slowing the spread was the whole objective, correct? That is coming from the experts, unless you were listening to trump I certainly didn't believe a virus was just going to disappear. So wouldn't it make sense that the states hit first would be in a better position currently? Don't forget that testing is on a whole other level than it was early on as well, do you think if tests were being performed like they are now the overall case numbers wouldn't look drastically different? It is not rocket science and is another way of evaluating something without allowing political bias to control your thought process. I am looking at this as a whole, I do not participate in the my state is better than your state playground bullshit. Am I right? I am not claiming to be, this is a forum for discussion and it is certainly something to consider.
  • static111static111 Posts: 5,018
    So what makes a state a "mouth-breather" state? 
    I’d like to know this as well
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  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 17,848
    JimmyV said:
    The question of whether or not to return kids to school is our Kobayashi Maru.
    Where's J. Tiberius Kirk to cheat the system when you need him?
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 17,848
    edited July 2020
    JW269453 said:
     Don't forget that testing is on a whole other level than it was early on as well, do you think if tests were being performed like they are now the overall case numbers wouldn't look drastically different? It is not rocket science and is another way of evaluating something without allowing political bias to control your thought process. 
    If there was less testing, there'd be less confirmed cases, but the infection rate would be the same, or likely higher as some folks who didn't know for sure they had it would continue to interact with and infect others. Greater volume of testing isn't accounting for the increase in numbers now, poor adherence to social distancing and other safety protocols (especially mask wearing) is. That's why hospitilizations are surging in Ca, FL, TX, AZ and GA amongst others. And those who claim "the fatality rate is lower" like Trump, Pence DeSantis and kemp all have recently are ignoring the simple scientific fact of the lag. People don't contract the virus and drop dead immediately. The contract, get sick, get sicker, go to hospital, go to ICU, then die. Takes a few weeks on average.
    And look at death tolls in those states this week compared to 2-3 weeks ago, they have risen dramatically (FL reporting triple digit deaths daily now), and will continue to do so.
    Post edited by Poncier on
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 41,899
    nicknyr15 said:
    You’re so funny. Honestly. Borderline insane with your weird phrases, nicknames and now hashtags. Never said you stopped me, nor would you ever. I just said it went right to Trump. If I brought up a roll of Duct tape, you’d bring up Trump. It’s who you are. You can’t help it. It’s all good. 
    Team Trump Treason Tape? That shit don’t stick, yo!
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  • nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 9,186
    Team Trump Treason Tape? That shit don’t stick, yo!
    😂😂 ok. You got me! That’s good. 
  • FiveBelowFiveBelow Posts: 1,331
    edited July 2020
    Poncier said:
    If there was less testing, there'd be less confirmed cases, but the infection rate would be the same, or likely higher as some folks who didn't know for sure they had it would continue to interact with and infect others. Greater volume of testing isn't accounting for the increase in numbers now, poor adherence to social distancing and other safety protocols (especially mask wearing) is. That's why hospitilizations are surging in Ca, FL, TX, AZ and GA amongst others. And those who claim "the fatality rate is lower" like Trump, Pence DeSantis and kemp all have recently are ignoring the simple scientific fact of the lag. People don't contract the virus and drop dead immediately. The contract, get sick, get sicker, go to hospital, go to ICU, then die. Takes a few weeks on average.
    And look at death tolls in those states this week compared to 2-3 weeks ago, they have risen dramatically (FL reporting triple digit deaths daily now), and will continue to do so.
    I was saying the confirmed cases in the northeast would look drastically different had testing been available as it is now. I don't care about case numbers because we all know it is not an accurate representation due to those who are asymptomatic, but it seems that is what many people focus on. I think deaths paint a more accurate picture when it comes to the widespread presence of the virus and the areas where it is currently moving through will undoubtedly see a major increase in death over the next month or so. Much like the northeast was when it was ravaging them.

    Post edited by FiveBelow on
  • bbiggsbbiggs Posts: 6,963
    static111 said:
    I’d like to know this as well
    As I mentioned in my post above, this is presumably a term commonly used around here for people that reside in red states.  Republicans = mouth breathers.  At least according to some of the 10C faithful. 

  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 17,848
    JW269453 said:
    I was saying the confirmed cases in the northeast would look drastically different had testing been available as it is now. I don't care about case numbers because we all know it is not an accurate representation due to those who are asymptomatic, but it seems that is what many people focus on. I think deaths paint a more accurate picture when it comes to the widespread presence of the virus and the areas where it is currently moving through will undoubtedly see a major increase in death over the next month or so. Much like the northeast was when it was ravaging them.

    Got ya. Yes if testing were higher in March and April, confirmed cases in the northeast would certainly have been higher, the testing back then was focused on strictly those either with symptoms or who had come in contact with someone who tested positive or folks who had traveled before lock downs. So likely plenty of asymptomatic folks never got tested (and still aren't everywhere) and added to the spread of things, especially early on before any stay at home orders. But hospitilization and deaths wouldn't have changed much, those as you say are the real key indicators. Also percent of positive testing, which is currently higher in FLA than it ever was in NY, a very troubling sign.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 17,848
    bbiggs said:
    As I mentioned in my post above, this is presumably a term commonly used around here for people that reside in red states.  Republicans = mouth breathers.  At least according to some of the 10C faithful. 

    Its an ignorant way of painting folks with a broad brush and doesn't make liberals look very liberal or very affable.
    This weekend we rock Portland
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