PPP (Paycheck Protection Program)

nicknyr15 said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

No other way to pay them? When some big restaurant chains  received them there was outrage that these were meant for small businesses. I don’t see the difference. Any money that went to PJ or GnR etc, was less money to go around to other businesses that legitimately had no other way to pay employees. I think it’s ridiculous  

nicknyr15 said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

No other way to pay them? When some big restaurant chains  received them there was outrage that these were meant for small businesses. I don’t see the difference. Any money that went to PJ or GnR etc, was less money to go around to other businesses that legitimately had no other way to pay employees. I think it’s ridiculous  

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

No other way to pay them? When some big restaurant chains  received them there was outrage that these were meant for small businesses. I don’t see the difference. Any money that went to PJ or GnR etc, was less money to go around to other businesses that legitimately had no other way to pay employees. I think it’s ridiculous  

PPP was designed for small businesses.  I think the number was less than 500 employees.  PJ does not have that many employees.  Big, public restaurant chains were not intended to receive these loans. 

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

No other way to pay them? When some big restaurant chains  received them there was outrage that these were meant for small businesses. I don’t see the difference. Any money that went to PJ or GnR etc, was less money to go around to other businesses that legitimately had no other way to pay employees. I think it’s ridiculous  

PPP was designed for small businesses.  I think the number was less than 500 employees.  PJ does not have that many employees.  Big, public restaurant chains were not intended to receive these loans. 

Ok. I disagree. PJ needed the loan? Cmon. GnR needed it? To me it’s ridiculous. 

My guess is PJ the corporation needed the loan.  The band members did not need the loan.  It's not like their personal assets are tied up in the corporation.  Remember they have people on the sideline this year, that will need to work next year with no ticket revenue (or vice versa).  If I were them, I would retain these ticket sales for salaries next year, and use the PPP for the missed tour this year.  

PJ aren't free market capitalists.  I don't draw a distinction between their corp taking the money and any other small business taking money where the owner is wealthy (which would be many of the businesses that took money).

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

No other way to pay them? When some big restaurant chains  received them there was outrage that these were meant for small businesses. I don’t see the difference. Any money that went to PJ or GnR etc, was less money to go around to other businesses that legitimately had no other way to pay employees. I think it’s ridiculous  

PPP was designed for small businesses.  I think the number was less than 500 employees.  PJ does not have that many employees.  Big, public restaurant chains were not intended to receive these loans. 

Ok. I disagree. PJ needed the loan? Cmon. GnR needed it? To me it’s ridiculous. 

My guess is PJ the corporation needed the loan.  The band members did not need the loan.  It's not like their personal assets are tied up in the corporation.  Remember they have people on the sideline this year, that will need to work next year with no ticket revenue (or vice versa).  If I were them, I would retain these ticket sales for salaries next year, and use the PPP for the missed tour this year.  

PJ aren't free market capitalists.  I don't draw a distinction between their corp taking the money and any other small business taking money where the owner is wealthy (which would be many of the businesses that took money).

Very thoughtful way to look at it. Thank you. I still feel that they had ways of making income during the pandemic with merch which they could have used to pay their crew. NIN, Deftones did that. It’s just not a great look imo. 

Did those two bands have tours planned and people lined up to support it?  If they did and still paid the crew without the tour revenue, then good for them.  I see that as going way above and beyond. 

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

No other way to pay them? When some big restaurant chains  received them there was outrage that these were meant for small businesses. I don’t see the difference. Any money that went to PJ or GnR etc, was less money to go around to other businesses that legitimately had no other way to pay employees. I think it’s ridiculous  

PPP was designed for small businesses.  I think the number was less than 500 employees.  PJ does not have that many employees.  Big, public restaurant chains were not intended to receive these loans. 

Ok. I disagree. PJ needed the loan? Cmon. GnR needed it? To me it’s ridiculous. 

My guess is PJ the corporation needed the loan.  The band members did not need the loan.  It's not like their personal assets are tied up in the corporation.  Remember they have people on the sideline this year, that will need to work next year with no ticket revenue (or vice versa).  If I were them, I would retain these ticket sales for salaries next year, and use the PPP for the missed tour this year.  

PJ aren't free market capitalists.  I don't draw a distinction between their corp taking the money and any other small business taking money where the owner is wealthy (which would be many of the businesses that took money).

Very thoughtful way to look at it. Thank you. I still feel that they had ways of making income during the pandemic with merch which they could have used to pay their crew. NIN, Deftones did that. It’s just not a great look imo. 

Did those two bands have tours planned and people lined up to support it?  If they did and still paid the crew without the tour revenue, then good for them.  I see that as going way above and beyond. 

Can a band start up a tour next year with no employees and no money? How is live nation getting by?

Most businesses are now open. Restaurants were screaming a few months ago but they were allowed to stay open throughout the brief shutdown with delivery and curbside pickup. But rock bands have zero revenue until arenas and theaters can be full again, which could be well over a year away. Yes the band itself has money but how big of a crew does it take to put on a tour? 50? 75? How are any of those workers going to survive 18 to 24 months with no touring?

Gern Blansten said:

static111 said:

Gern Blansten said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

Well.....like many other "businesses" they likely had other ways to pay them.  I won't fault them for utilizing a program that they qualified for.  I got a PPP loan and arguably didn't need it.

The problem isn't so much with the businesses that obtained the loans...it's that the gov't left the repayment provisions so open ended that it's free money.  

That’s kind of what I was getting at. I’m just wondering why it was easier to give money to millionaires and their companies than it was to give it directly to people put out of work and needed the money the most.

I agree.  I think the they should have funded massive stimulus payments directly to the citizens instead of this ridiculous exercise of going through the bank/SBA, etc.  

nicknyr15 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

mrussel1 said:

nicknyr15 said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

No other way to pay them? When some big restaurant chains  received them there was outrage that these were meant for small businesses. I don’t see the difference. Any money that went to PJ or GnR etc, was less money to go around to other businesses that legitimately had no other way to pay employees. I think it’s ridiculous  

PPP was designed for small businesses.  I think the number was less than 500 employees.  PJ does not have that many employees.  Big, public restaurant chains were not intended to receive these loans. 

Ok. I disagree. PJ needed the loan? Cmon. GnR needed it? To me it’s ridiculous. 

My guess is PJ the corporation needed the loan.  The band members did not need the loan.  It's not like their personal assets are tied up in the corporation.  Remember they have people on the sideline this year, that will need to work next year with no ticket revenue (or vice versa).  If I were them, I would retain these ticket sales for salaries next year, and use the PPP for the missed tour this year.  

PJ aren't free market capitalists.  I don't draw a distinction between their corp taking the money and any other small business taking money where the owner is wealthy (which would be many of the businesses that took money).

Very thoughtful way to look at it. Thank you. I still feel that they had ways of making income during the pandemic with merch which they could have used to pay their crew. NIN, Deftones did that. It’s just not a great look imo. 

Did those two bands have tours planned and people lined up to support it?  If they did and still paid the crew without the tour revenue, then good for them.  I see that as going way above and beyond. 

Can a band start up a tour next year with no employees and no money? How is live nation getting by?

Most businesses are now open. Restaurants were screaming a few months ago but they were allowed to stay open throughout the brief shutdown with delivery and curbside pickup. But rock bands have zero revenue until arenas and theaters can be full again, which could be well over a year away. Yes the band itself has money but how big of a crew does it take to put on a tour? 50? 75? How are any of those workers going to survive 18 to 24 months with no touring?

Zero revenue? I wouldnt say that. 

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

static111 said:

Gern Blansten said:

static111 said:

As long as they used it to pay their people and they had no other way to pay them I’m good.

Well.....like many other "businesses" they likely had other ways to pay them.  I won't fault them for utilizing a program that they qualified for.  I got a PPP loan and arguably didn't need it.

The problem isn't so much with the businesses that obtained the loans...it's that the gov't left the repayment provisions so open ended that it's free money.  

That’s kind of what I was getting at. I’m just wondering why it was easier to give money to millionaires and their companies than it was to give it directly to people put out of work and needed the money the most.

I agree.  I think the they should have funded massive stimulus payments directly to the citizens instead of this ridiculous exercise of going through the bank/SBA, etc.  

I don't know.. I'm just thinking about incentives.  This program incentivized companies to keep people on the payroll and keep business moving, even in limited fashion.  It kept the business afloat.  If it was done the way you suggested, think about the millions of small businesses that would ahve closed their doors, defaulted on loans, never to reopen again.  And now the credit is bad (many use personal assets to secure small business loans) so they can't restart a business. Now the gov't is paying people not to work, and there are no jobs to go back to when things improve.  I think this was actually a pretty smart program.