PPP (Paycheck Protection Program)

mrussel1

Applications are triple the expected amount.  They'll need to go back to negotiations to get more.  
I hope to God we have enough responsible officials to raise taxes when this is over.  

https://theweek.com/speedreads/908081/federal-program-promised-small-businesses-2-million-loans-now-maxing-15000

benjs

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

I don't think I've mentioned that businesses participating in PPP also have to keep everyone on staff after this over to be considered for loan forgiveness.  The duration is not clear.  What if we open back up in say June to almost zero business?  Then we got to keep a full staff on hand for the rest of the year to get 8 weeks of payroll back from the govt?  The whole thing seems ripe for disaster.

L

Well presumably if you open in June to no business, then you'll be filling bankruptcy and your business will not be viable.  I presume you're an S corp, LLC or something to protect personal assets. 

I get the concern but I'm sure you can see the other side where neither the Senate or  House would want a loan that you could take the cash and then just terminate the employees.  It would completely defeat the purpose of the bill.  

One thing here, Matt. If businesses don't ever return to being as 'whole' as they were before (a likely scenario in a shrunken market where people are afraid to congregate - especially if the business had a reliance on physical visitors), how do companies intend to address that? While I'd love to believe that businesses can weather this storm, I see where vaggar is coming from. In Ontario, there are certain EI benefits where, in order for our business to access the subsidies, we have to demonstrate a revenue reduction of 15% within the past three months I believe. This is how Ontario is attempting to prevent indiscriminate temporary layoffs, but I haven't heard anything from our government in terms of the ramifications of terminations (when I do sadly think many businesses will be forced into this). If the other side of the tunnel has fewer paying customers for most markets, how does an economy not participate in terminations en masse?

vaggar99

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

I don't think I've mentioned that businesses participating in PPP also have to keep everyone on staff after this over to be considered for loan forgiveness.  The duration is not clear.  What if we open back up in say June to almost zero business?  Then we got to keep a full staff on hand for the rest of the year to get 8 weeks of payroll back from the govt?  The whole thing seems ripe for disaster.

L

Well presumably if you open in June to no business, then you'll be filling bankruptcy and your business will not be viable.  I presume you're an S corp, LLC or something to protect personal assets. 

I get the concern but I'm sure you can see the other side where neither the Senate or  House would want a loan that you could take the cash and then just terminate the employees.  It would completely defeat the purpose of the bill.  

The bill was clearly rushed and full of flaws.  Many if not most of the applications are from businesses that are not even affected or are marginally affected.  Why is that?  It's because they put out zero qualifying criteria.  You simply initial line saying "Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support ongoing operations of the Applicant".  That is it.  You don't have to show sales receipts or lack there of.  nothing. fuck.

mrussel1

vaggar99 said:

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

I don't think I've mentioned that businesses participating in PPP also have to keep everyone on staff after this over to be considered for loan forgiveness.  The duration is not clear.  What if we open back up in say June to almost zero business?  Then we got to keep a full staff on hand for the rest of the year to get 8 weeks of payroll back from the govt?  The whole thing seems ripe for disaster.

L

Well presumably if you open in June to no business, then you'll be filling bankruptcy and your business will not be viable.  I presume you're an S corp, LLC or something to protect personal assets. 

I get the concern but I'm sure you can see the other side where neither the Senate or  House would want a loan that you could take the cash and then just terminate the employees.  It would completely defeat the purpose of the bill.  

The bill was clearly rushed and full of flaws.  Many if not most of the applications are from businesses that are not even affected or are marginally affected.  Why is that?  It's because they put out zero qualifying criteria.  You simply initial line saying "Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support ongoing operations of the Applicant".  That is it.  You don't have to show sales receipts or lack there of.  nothing. fuck.

Creating a control structure to vet apps would lead to substantial slowdown.  As it stands, the Treasury and SBA are changing things on the fly because normal logistics weren't thought through.   Is it better that we're relying on statements and getting the money out sooner, or would it be better to have created a more thorough application process and vetting, probably delaying money delivery by at least 60 days on top of however long it will take now?

vaggar99

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

I don't think I've mentioned that businesses participating in PPP also have to keep everyone on staff after this over to be considered for loan forgiveness.  The duration is not clear.  What if we open back up in say June to almost zero business?  Then we got to keep a full staff on hand for the rest of the year to get 8 weeks of payroll back from the govt?  The whole thing seems ripe for disaster.

L

Well presumably if you open in June to no business, then you'll be filling bankruptcy and your business will not be viable.  I presume you're an S corp, LLC or something to protect personal assets. 

I get the concern but I'm sure you can see the other side where neither the Senate or  House would want a loan that you could take the cash and then just terminate the employees.  It would completely defeat the purpose of the bill.  

The bill was clearly rushed and full of flaws.  Many if not most of the applications are from businesses that are not even affected or are marginally affected.  Why is that?  It's because they put out zero qualifying criteria.  You simply initial line saying "Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support ongoing operations of the Applicant".  That is it.  You don't have to show sales receipts or lack there of.  nothing. fuck.

Creating a control structure to vet apps would lead to substantial slowdown.  As it stands, the Treasury and SBA are changing things on the fly because normal logistics weren't thought through.   Is it better that we're relying on statements and getting the money out sooner, or would it be better to have created a more thorough application process and vetting, probably delaying money delivery by at least 60 days on top of however long it will take now?

Seems like they could have made a condition for loan forgiveness that you have to prove that your business was indeed forced to shut down and that your sales had dropped to zero or near zero.  Maybe that ends up being part of the deal?

Gern Blansten

brianlux said:

Gern Blansten said:

I heard that the $1,200 stimulus is based on 40 hours per week at minimum wage for a month.  That's pathetic

And it's just a token effort.  $1200 will cover the average family's expenses for what?  A week maybe?  But meanwhile they're bailing out big corporations.  Pretty much business as usual. 

Yeah that isn't even one month's rent

rgambs

We've been approved!  Hooray!

mrussel1

Gern Blansten said:

brianlux said:

Gern Blansten said:

I heard that the $1,200 stimulus is based on 40 hours per week at minimum wage for a month.  That's pathetic

And it's just a token effort.  $1200 will cover the average family's expenses for what?  A week maybe?  But meanwhile they're bailing out big corporations.  Pretty much business as usual. 

Yeah that isn't even one month's rent

What about the 600 per week plus normal unemployment insurance?  That doesn't help?

mrussel1

rgambs said:

We've been approved!  Hooray!

Nice,  on a Saturday no less?

rgambs

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

We've been approved!  Hooray!

Nice,  on a Saturday no less?

Not sure when the email came through, but I know First Merchants bank is working Saturdays to get these programs rolled out.
From what she's hearing from her optometry trade forum, it sucks to be dealing with big banks on this, particularly Bank of America.

vaggar99

benjs said:

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

I don't think I've mentioned that businesses participating in PPP also have to keep everyone on staff after this over to be considered for loan forgiveness.  The duration is not clear.  What if we open back up in say June to almost zero business?  Then we got to keep a full staff on hand for the rest of the year to get 8 weeks of payroll back from the govt?  The whole thing seems ripe for disaster.

L

Well presumably if you open in June to no business, then you'll be filling bankruptcy and your business will not be viable.  I presume you're an S corp, LLC or something to protect personal assets. 

I get the concern but I'm sure you can see the other side where neither the Senate or  House would want a loan that you could take the cash and then just terminate the employees.  It would completely defeat the purpose of the bill.  

One thing here, Matt. If businesses don't ever return to being as 'whole' as they were before (a likely scenario in a shrunken market where people are afraid to congregate - especially if the business had a reliance on physical visitors), how do companies intend to address that? While I'd love to believe that businesses can weather this storm, I see where vaggar is coming from. In Ontario, there are certain EI benefits where, in order for our business to access the subsidies, we have to demonstrate a revenue reduction of 15% within the past three months I believe. This is how Ontario is attempting to prevent indiscriminate temporary layoffs, but I haven't heard anything from our government in terms of the ramifications of terminations (when I do sadly think many businesses will be forced into this). If the other side of the tunnel has fewer paying customers for most markets, how does an economy not participate in terminations en masse?

This is the big question right now.  We are ready to right off all profit for this year.  We are looking at a scenario where mall anchors could ALL be gone.  If that happens, people will be even less inclined to enter malls than they already are.  Smaller, corporate owned shops are also in big trouble.  Rents are not being paid and so the malls don't have money to invest in property improvements that might help bring traffic back.  It's a death spiral in my opinion.

mrussel1

vaggar99 said:

benjs said:

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

I don't think I've mentioned that businesses participating in PPP also have to keep everyone on staff after this over to be considered for loan forgiveness.  The duration is not clear.  What if we open back up in say June to almost zero business?  Then we got to keep a full staff on hand for the rest of the year to get 8 weeks of payroll back from the govt?  The whole thing seems ripe for disaster.

L

Well presumably if you open in June to no business, then you'll be filling bankruptcy and your business will not be viable.  I presume you're an S corp, LLC or something to protect personal assets. 

I get the concern but I'm sure you can see the other side where neither the Senate or  House would want a loan that you could take the cash and then just terminate the employees.  It would completely defeat the purpose of the bill.  

One thing here, Matt. If businesses don't ever return to being as 'whole' as they were before (a likely scenario in a shrunken market where people are afraid to congregate - especially if the business had a reliance on physical visitors), how do companies intend to address that? While I'd love to believe that businesses can weather this storm, I see where vaggar is coming from. In Ontario, there are certain EI benefits where, in order for our business to access the subsidies, we have to demonstrate a revenue reduction of 15% within the past three months I believe. This is how Ontario is attempting to prevent indiscriminate temporary layoffs, but I haven't heard anything from our government in terms of the ramifications of terminations (when I do sadly think many businesses will be forced into this). If the other side of the tunnel has fewer paying customers for most markets, how does an economy not participate in terminations en masse?

This is the big question right now.  We are ready to right off all profit for this year.  We are looking at a scenario where mall anchors could ALL be gone.  If that happens, people will be even less inclined to enter malls than they already are.  Smaller, corporate owned shops are also in big trouble.  Rents are not being paid and so the malls don't have money to invest in property improvements that might help bring traffic back.  It's a death spiral in my opinion.

It can be for sure.  I think that’s why the act focused on workers on both sides of the equation, employed and unemployed.  I imagine the theory is to keep money flowing to stimulate economic activity.  However, if you can’t get out to spend the money, or businesses aren’t open to take the money, it can only prop us up for a month or two at best.

vaggar99

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

benjs said:

mrussel1 said:

vaggar99 said:

I don't think I've mentioned that businesses participating in PPP also have to keep everyone on staff after this over to be considered for loan forgiveness.  The duration is not clear.  What if we open back up in say June to almost zero business?  Then we got to keep a full staff on hand for the rest of the year to get 8 weeks of payroll back from the govt?  The whole thing seems ripe for disaster.

L

Well presumably if you open in June to no business, then you'll be filling bankruptcy and your business will not be viable.  I presume you're an S corp, LLC or something to protect personal assets. 

I get the concern but I'm sure you can see the other side where neither the Senate or  House would want a loan that you could take the cash and then just terminate the employees.  It would completely defeat the purpose of the bill.  

One thing here, Matt. If businesses don't ever return to being as 'whole' as they were before (a likely scenario in a shrunken market where people are afraid to congregate - especially if the business had a reliance on physical visitors), how do companies intend to address that? While I'd love to believe that businesses can weather this storm, I see where vaggar is coming from. In Ontario, there are certain EI benefits where, in order for our business to access the subsidies, we have to demonstrate a revenue reduction of 15% within the past three months I believe. This is how Ontario is attempting to prevent indiscriminate temporary layoffs, but I haven't heard anything from our government in terms of the ramifications of terminations (when I do sadly think many businesses will be forced into this). If the other side of the tunnel has fewer paying customers for most markets, how does an economy not participate in terminations en masse?

This is the big question right now.  We are ready to right off all profit for this year.  We are looking at a scenario where mall anchors could ALL be gone.  If that happens, people will be even less inclined to enter malls than they already are.  Smaller, corporate owned shops are also in big trouble.  Rents are not being paid and so the malls don't have money to invest in property improvements that might help bring traffic back.  It's a death spiral in my opinion.

It can be for sure.  I think that’s why the act focused on workers on both sides of the equation, employed and unemployed.  I imagine the theory is to keep money flowing to stimulate economic activity.  However, if you can’t get out to spend the money, or businesses aren’t open to take the money, it can only prop us up for a month or two at best.

I suppose my answer this is the same as my last post in Stock Market.  I'm basically scared shitless.

mrussel1

@vaggar99 It looks like some of your concerns around the 75% rule are being addressed.  This woman is actually my rep and lives in the neighborhood next to mine.  I'm a big fan of hers, very balanced.  I didn't realize that those rules are SBA/Trump rules and weren't in the legislation.  That's good news, since they can be modified without a law.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/democratic-congresswoman-rules-for-ppp-loans-are-too-restrictive-171820173.html

Gern Blansten

I just got my EIDL advance....just happened to check my bank account and there it was

No word on PPP though

I am a patriot

PPP is out of money unless legislation is passed.  The administration is pushing for it. Hard to see it not go through given that the impacts of the virus will be felt for some time to come.

brianlux

I am a patriot said:

PPP is out of money unless legislation is passed.  The administration is pushing for it. Hard to see it not go through given that the impacts of the virus will be felt for some time to come.

Concerned that the bookstore of 36 years is in jeopardy, my wife jumped on this immediately.  She never saw a cent and now the thing went bust.

Meanwhile...

https://nypost.com/2020/04/16/43k-us-millionaires-will-get-stimulus-averaging-1-6m-each/

Over 43,000 US millionaires will get ‘stimulus’ averaging $1.6 million each

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8mduTEvnU0

rgambs

Yeah this thing is fucked, not because of the design, but because people are greedy fucking losers.
It had to have few impediments in order to roll out fast and smooth enough to be effective, but those few impediments left the door open for people that deserve fates I'll not utter aloud.
If you didn't have to close or lay anyone off and you applied for this loan because it's free money or just because it's such a low interest loan, you are a bag of shit and I hope you choke on a bag of dicks.

The biggest recipient in our area is an owner of 6 fast food restaurants that are still busy as fuck.  Nobody, or almost nobody, is laid off on unemployment, but now payroll is covered for 2 months.  Awesome.

vaggar99

rgambs said:

Yeah this thing is fucked, not because of the design, but because people are greedy fucking losers.
It had to have few impediments in order to roll out fast and smooth enough to be effective, but those few impediments left the door open for people that deserve fates I'll not utter aloud.
If you didn't have to close or lay anyone off and you applied for this loan because it's free money or just because it's such a low interest loan, you are a bag of shit and I hope you choke on a bag of dicks.

The biggest recipient in our area is an owner of 6 fast food restaurants that are still busy as fuck.  Nobody, or almost nobody, is laid off on unemployment, but now payroll is covered for 2 months.  Awesome.

Yes, they put no fucking restrictions on the program.  Sounds like you are in the majority of honest businesses that were truly affected by this that didn't get funded.

We got 1 out of 3 of our loans approved.  So, we are covering 2/3 of our employees on our own dime.  The biggest shit show of my lifetime.

mrussel1

vaggar99 said:

rgambs said:

Yeah this thing is fucked, not because of the design, but because people are greedy fucking losers.
It had to have few impediments in order to roll out fast and smooth enough to be effective, but those few impediments left the door open for people that deserve fates I'll not utter aloud.
If you didn't have to close or lay anyone off and you applied for this loan because it's free money or just because it's such a low interest loan, you are a bag of shit and I hope you choke on a bag of dicks.

The biggest recipient in our area is an owner of 6 fast food restaurants that are still busy as fuck.  Nobody, or almost nobody, is laid off on unemployment, but now payroll is covered for 2 months.  Awesome.

Yes, they put no fucking restrictions on the program.  Sounds like you are in the majority of honest businesses that were truly affected by this that didn't get funded.

We got 1 out of 3 of our loans approved.  So, we are covering 2/3 of our employees on our own dime.  The biggest shit show of my lifetime.

Were the other two denied or are you waiting for new funding?