PPP (Paycheck Protection Program)

mrussel1

I love that the Ayn Rand Institute took PPP money.  Of course they use the same old "we're entitled to it, we paid into it" argument.  Still hilariously ironic.  https://newideal.aynrand.org/we-took-ppp-funds-and-would-do-it-again/

Gern Blansten

It sure as hell is...

mickeyrat

https://apnews.com/article/catholic-church-get-aid-investigation-39a404f55c82fea84902cd16f04e37b2

When the coronavirus forced churches to close their doors and give up Sunday collections, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Charlotte turned to the federal government’s signature small business relief program for more than $8 million.  The diocese’s headquarters, churches and schools landed the help even though they had roughly $100 million of their own cash and short-term investments available last spring, financial records show. When the cash catastrophe church leaders feared didn’t materialize, those assets topped $110 million by the summer.  “I am gratified to report the overall good financial health of the diocese despite the many difficulties presented by the Covid-19 pandemic,” Bishop Peter Jugis wrote in the diocese’s audited financial report released last fall.  As the pandemic began to unfold, scores of Catholic dioceses across the U.S. received aid through the Paycheck Protection Program while sitting on well over $10 billion in cash, short-term investments or other available funds, an Associated Press investigation has found. And despite the broad economic downturn, these assets have grown in many dioceses.  Yet even with that financial safety net, the 112 dioceses that shared their financial statements, along with the churches and schools they oversee, collected at least $1.5 billion in taxpayer-backed aid. A majority of these dioceses reported enough money on hand to cover at least six months of operating expenses, even without any new income.  The financial resources of several dioceses rivaled or exceeded those available to publicly traded companies like Shake Shack and Ruth’s Chris Steak House, whose early participation in the program triggered outrage. Federal officials responded by emphasizing the money was intended for those who lacked the cushion that cash and other liquidity provide. Many corporations returned the funds.

continues......

Gern Blansten

I have a real hard time listening to the GOP bitch about stimulus payments possibly going to lower income people that might not "need" it when they gave out billions in PPP funds to businesses that didn't necessarily need it.

I've seen several examples first hand and can admit that I benefitted greatly from PPP funds.

cincybearcat

Gern Blansten said:

I have a real hard time listening to the GOP bitch about stimulus payments possibly going to lower income people that might not "need" it when they gave out billions in PPP funds to businesses that didn't necessarily need it.

I've seen several examples first hand and can admit that I benefitted greatly from PPP funds.

Yeah I can see that. What sucks is anyone not needing it getting it. So while they were wrong for certain before, doesn’t mean some of what they are saying isn’t right now.  

rgambs

Gern Blansten said:

I have a real hard time listening to the GOP bitch about stimulus payments possibly going to lower income people that might not "need" it when they gave out billions in PPP funds to businesses that didn't necessarily need it.

I've seen several examples first hand and can admit that I benefitted greatly from PPP funds.

We came out ahead as well, when all was said and done.
At the time we had no idea how everything was going to play out and whether or not we could recover the lost revenue.  We are a TRUE small business that serves our community...4 employees under one roof. 
Our loan was very small compared to most, not even 20,000$, and we were closed and not generating revenue.  The fast food franchise down the street never closed, they had lines around the building through the entire shutdown and they received several times more money than us to cover payroll for employees that were still working and generating revenue at only slightly reduced (if at all) rates.

So with those factors considered, we don't feel bad about taking the funds even though we ended up recovering the lost revenue.  We feel like we are exactly the situation the PPP was created for and we are just lucky that things worked out when they could have swung the other way.

rgambs

cincybearcat said:

Gern Blansten said:

I have a real hard time listening to the GOP bitch about stimulus payments possibly going to lower income people that might not "need" it when they gave out billions in PPP funds to businesses that didn't necessarily need it.

I've seen several examples first hand and can admit that I benefitted greatly from PPP funds.

Yeah I can see that. What sucks is anyone not needing it getting it. So while there were wrong for certain before, doesn’t mean some of what they are saying isn’t right now.  

That is sort of the GOP in a nutshell, when they are wrong it's intolerably disgusting, and when they are right it's still intolerably disgusting lol

rgambs

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

JeBurkhardt

rgambs said:

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

Years ago I was getting a new tattoo in the late Spring. While I was there, a man along with his wife and late teen son were all getting multiple tattoos. We got to talking and he was using the money from his tax return, which included the extra earned income tax credit money, to get well over $1000 worth of ink. At least your Brother got to watch TV afterwards. 🤷‍♂️

Gern Blansten

rgambs said:

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

Totally agree....that was kind of the point I meant to make earlier.  And I don't fault anyone for taking the PPP at all...I took it and I had my wife take this latest round of PPP because her business qualified.  It's just amazing to me that the GOP (and the tRumpsters I see on my FB feed) are so adamant that the $2,000 stimulus or increased unemployment is a waste of money yet they gave me $55K that I didn't need.  And yes, at the time we had no idea what was coming.

I have a client that owns three restaurants in three different cities.  He got roughly $100K per restaurant in PPP.  Unbelievably all three restaurants had similar revenue in 2020 as 2019.  That's $300K in his pocket that he technically didn't need (in hindsight) and it's tax free.

Unfuckingbelievable.

And yes, I would have taken that all day long.  I'm not criticizing the participants....just the hypocrisy.

cincybearcat

So - like welfare abuse, I wonder if the abuse at the business level is pretty small amount? Any data on that?

PPP - was for keeping people on staff, right? Keeping people paid even if they lost hours? So having business keep people on staff?

Gern Blansten

cincybearcat said:

So - like welfare abuse, I wonder if the abuse at the business level is pretty small amount? Any data on that?

PPP - was for keeping people on staff, right? Keeping people paid even if they lost hours? So having business keep people on staff?

Correct....but if revenue already supported keeping people on staff it became lottery winnings.  Except better than lottery because it was tax free.

brianlux

rgambs said:

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

Very good point.

I'm not working in the Bookstore these days but was in there briefly a while back and a woman came up with a big stack of books and after she paid for them said something like, "Well, now I'm down to my last $20 unless I get more stimulus money." 

OK, sure, we're happy for the business, but honestly, I would rather see her buy one book and save the rest of food and rent.  The library is still up and running and they have lots of books.

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

Very good point.

I'm not working in the Bookstore these days but was in there briefly a while back and a woman came up with a big stack of books and after she paid for them said something like, "Well, now I'm down to my last $20 unless I get more stimulus money." 

OK, sure, we're happy for the business, but honestly, I would rather see her buy one book and save the rest of food and rent.  The library is still up and running and they have lots of books.

but isnt the point to stimulate business?

mrussel1

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

Very good point.

I'm not working in the Bookstore these days but was in there briefly a while back and a woman came up with a big stack of books and after she paid for them said something like, "Well, now I'm down to my last $20 unless I get more stimulus money." 

OK, sure, we're happy for the business, but honestly, I would rather see her buy one book and save the rest of food and rent.  The library is still up and running and they have lots of books.

but isnt the point to stimulate business?

Yeah exactly. Unless you're just paying down debt or socking into savings, that's perfect. 

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

Very good point.

I'm not working in the Bookstore these days but was in there briefly a while back and a woman came up with a big stack of books and after she paid for them said something like, "Well, now I'm down to my last $20 unless I get more stimulus money." 

OK, sure, we're happy for the business, but honestly, I would rather see her buy one book and save the rest of food and rent.  The library is still up and running and they have lots of books.

but isnt the point to stimulate business?

Yes, but if someone is spending down to their last twenty bucks on fun stuff, wouldn't it make more sense to spend more of the money on essentials?

Yeah,yeah, yeah, I know... books are an essential.  You don't have to tell me that! 

But seriously, this incident happened before we knew more money might be coming.  If she was that broke and going to spend all but her last 20 bucks based on a crap shoot of the unknown hope that more money would be coming, maybe this young lady would have done better for herself and to stimulate business just as much by spending a little on pleasure, but spending more on things like food or something to wear to an interview or toothpaste or others living essentials. 

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

Very good point.

I'm not working in the Bookstore these days but was in there briefly a while back and a woman came up with a big stack of books and after she paid for them said something like, "Well, now I'm down to my last $20 unless I get more stimulus money." 

OK, sure, we're happy for the business, but honestly, I would rather see her buy one book and save the rest of food and rent.  The library is still up and running and they have lots of books.

but isnt the point to stimulate business?

Yes, but if someone is spending down to their last twenty bucks on fun stuff, wouldn't it make more sense to spend more of the money on essentials?

Yeah,yeah, yeah, I know... books are an essential.  You don't have to tell me that! 

But seriously, this incident happened before we knew more money might be coming.  If she was that broke and going to spend all but her last 20 bucks based on a crap shoot of the unknown hope that more money would be coming, maybe this young lady would have done better for herself and to stimulate business just as much by spending a little on pleasure, but spending more on things like food or something to wear to an interview or toothpaste or others living essentials. 

wait. didnt you say she was down to the last 20 of stimulus? you infer that's the only money she had? Am reading a lot of assumptions on your part.

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

rgambs said:

It does suck that people who haven't lost income have gotten a few thousand dollars beyond what they needed and those who HAVE lost income have gotten several thousand less than what they needed, but the solution is just beyond our broken government.

What we do know is that stimulus payments definitely boost the economy, there's no doubt about that.
Shit, my brother is poor as fuck, disabled without disability, living in section 8 on food stamps...what did they do with the second stimulus?  Bought a new TV!  People who aren't used to having spending cash spend it up immediately when they get some.  In fairness, their TV was shot and they did need a new one, but the point is still obvious.

Very good point.

I'm not working in the Bookstore these days but was in there briefly a while back and a woman came up with a big stack of books and after she paid for them said something like, "Well, now I'm down to my last $20 unless I get more stimulus money." 

OK, sure, we're happy for the business, but honestly, I would rather see her buy one book and save the rest of food and rent.  The library is still up and running and they have lots of books.

but isnt the point to stimulate business?

Yes, but if someone is spending down to their last twenty bucks on fun stuff, wouldn't it make more sense to spend more of the money on essentials?

Yeah,yeah, yeah, I know... books are an essential.  You don't have to tell me that! 

But seriously, this incident happened before we knew more money might be coming.  If she was that broke and going to spend all but her last 20 bucks based on a crap shoot of the unknown hope that more money would be coming, maybe this young lady would have done better for herself and to stimulate business just as much by spending a little on pleasure, but spending more on things like food or something to wear to an interview or toothpaste or others living essentials. 

wait. didnt you say she was down to the last 20 of stimulus? you infer that's the only money she had? Am reading a lot of assumptions on your part.

She said it was all she had- her last twenty bucks period.

hedonist

In terms of how the stimulus (if any) is spent, I kinda look at it like giving money to a homeless or otherwise needy person.  I don't get to dictate what they spend that money on.  I may not condone or understand what's done with it, but it's simply none of my business.

brianlux

hedonist said:

In terms of how the stimulus (if any) is spent, I kinda look at it like giving money to a homeless or otherwise needy person.  I don't get to dictate what they spend that money on.  I may not condone or understand what's done with it, but it's simply none of my business.

Agreed. 

I said nothing slighting or derogatory toward that person in the least.  I only brought it up as an example and in more general terms.  I never tell other people what to do.

rgambs

There's a psychological phenomenon that someone with a real internet connection could probably find and link...to put it ridiculously simply, poor people (like my family) lose impulse control through prolonged exposure to deficits in wants and needs.  The result is that while those with less means are the ones who most need frugality, it often escapes them and they end up with impulse buys of "luxury" items that people with higher incomes consider outside of their own budget.

Gern Blansten

rgambs said:

There's a psychological phenomenon that someone with a real internet connection could probably find and link...to put it ridiculously simply, poor people (like my family) lose impulse control through prolonged exposure to deficits in wants and needs.  The result is that while those with less means are the ones who most need frugality, it often escapes them and they end up with impulse buys of "luxury" items that people with higher incomes consider outside of their own budget.

Which is why the stimulus is so important.  It stimulates the economy because people tend to spend the money on items they need...food, clothing, TV, entertainment, etc.

Vs these people raking in tons of cash via PPP and hoarding the cash.  They don't spend it because they already have a new car, new clothes, etc.

rgambs

Gern Blansten said:

rgambs said:

There's a psychological phenomenon that someone with a real internet connection could probably find and link...to put it ridiculously simply, poor people (like my family) lose impulse control through prolonged exposure to deficits in wants and needs.  The result is that while those with less means are the ones who most need frugality, it often escapes them and they end up with impulse buys of "luxury" items that people with higher incomes consider outside of their own budget.

Which is why the stimulus is so important.  It stimulates the economy because people tend to spend the money on items they need...food, clothing, TV, entertainment, etc.

Vs these people raking in tons of cash via PPP and hoarding the cash.  They don't spend it because they already have a new car, new clothes, etc.

Absolutely, and while tax cuts for job creation isn't exactly bullshit, it obviously needs balanced with cash in people's pockets...though of course, stimulus isn't the only way to get cash in people's pockets.

cincybearcat

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/20/economy/stimulus-checks-economic-impact/index.html

mrussel1

cincybearcat said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/20/economy/stimulus-checks-economic-impact/index.html

This is out of context or something.  Perhaps this writer is pulling some old quotes but Zandi has been very supportive of a large stimulus this round.  Their position paper on Moody's opens with this:

President-elect Joe Biden’s proposed $1.9 trillion fiscal rescue package, the American Rescue 

Plan, would provide a large boost to the economy if passed into law. With this additional 

economic support, real GDP growth would be robust at nearly 8% this year and almost 4% 

next, bringing the economy back almost to full employment by fall 2022

cincybearcat

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/wrong-stimulus-wrong-time-11612568558

Definitely some interesting differing opinions 

mrussel1

cincybearcat said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/wrong-stimulus-wrong-time-11612568558

Definitely some interesting differing opinions 

Read what moodys really said... not that cherry picked article. https://www.moodysanalytics.com/-/media/article/2021/economic-assessment-of-biden-fiscal-rescue-package.pdf

Wsj editorial is a mouthpiece for the GOP

Halifax2TheMax

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/wrong-stimulus-wrong-time-11612568558

Definitely some interesting differing opinions 

Read what moodys really said... not that cherry picked article. https://www.moodysanalytics.com/-/media/article/2021/economic-assessment-of-biden-fiscal-rescue-package.pdf

Wsj editorial is a mouthpiece for the GOP

You cant expect anything from Rupert Murdoch to be anything else. WSJ is garbage now.

mrussel1

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/wrong-stimulus-wrong-time-11612568558

Definitely some interesting differing opinions 

Read what moodys really said... not that cherry picked article. https://www.moodysanalytics.com/-/media/article/2021/economic-assessment-of-biden-fiscal-rescue-package.pdf

Wsj editorial is a mouthpiece for the GOP

You cant expect anything from Rupert Murdoch to be anything else. WSJ is garbage now.

The reporting is good,  not the opinion side

Halifax2TheMax

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/wrong-stimulus-wrong-time-11612568558

Definitely some interesting differing opinions 

Read what moodys really said... not that cherry picked article. https://www.moodysanalytics.com/-/media/article/2021/economic-assessment-of-biden-fiscal-rescue-package.pdf

Wsj editorial is a mouthpiece for the GOP

You cant expect anything from Rupert Murdoch to be anything else. WSJ is garbage now.

The reporting is good,  not the opinion side

The print edition seems to have gone with some color pages and a dumbing down or simplification of the language used in articles. Almost more tabloidy. Certainly not what it used to be. And every subscription, online or print, purchase or click, supports that insurrectionist douche Murdoch. Faux News Corp has blood on its hands and has done more than anyone to divide this nation. Fuck him and them.