Biden vs Trump 2020 - vote now and discuss!
Comments
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Biden
You're right, but which candidate do you believe has a better chance to win? Sanders is subject to all sorts of legitimate attacks. Warren has the same problems (to a lesser degree) as HRC. Who else? I liked Pete, but was concerned he's actually too young. I'd love to see another run. If you can't beat the old guy with no money, how are you going to beat Trump?pjhawks said:
It's both the party and the people but ultimately if they lose this election the party heads will take the fall. We as Dems cannot lose 2 electios to this human garbage named Trump. We have failed the world if we lose again.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.0 -
The GOP field four years ago was filled with weak candidates. Seems to be a trend.
Biden has a chance to maybe take some chances and try to grab the middle voter instead of catering to the far left that is going to vote for him anyway. There are a lot of people that really don't like what they are seeing of the far edges of the political spectrum.Be Excellent To Each OtherParty On, Dudes!0 -
Biden
they needed to pump a younger candidate up once they lost the last election. What was the plan after Hillary lost? if the plan was 4 years later to have 3 main candidates in their late 70s to run against Trump it was a bad idea. I liked Yang, Pete and even Harris. I think if they had rallied around a younger candidate, got one united message around a younger candidate we'd be a lock to win in November. Now I still think Biden wins but what if he continues to slide down the hill mentally? Going to be a very interesting few months.mrussel1 said:
You're right, but which candidate do you believe has a better chance to win? Sanders is subject to all sorts of legitimate attacks. Warren has the same problems (to a lesser degree) as HRC. Who else? I liked Pete, but was concerned he's actually too young. I'd love to see another run. If you can't beat the old guy with no money, how are you going to beat Trump?pjhawks said:
It's both the party and the people but ultimately if they lose this election the party heads will take the fall. We as Dems cannot lose 2 electios to this human garbage named Trump. We have failed the world if we lose again.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.0 -
Biden
See you're arguing that the party should have tipped the scales for one of the younger candidates. This is exactly what everyone bitched and moaned about in 2016 and that the party was careful NOT to do. Make it a fair playing field. Don't support one candidate over another. Reduce the power of teh super delegates. So what happens? We choose the old guy that we like and trust. It goes to show there is no pleasing people. I'm not picking on you, you're not the only person to say these types of things. But in some ways, you can't win for losing.pjhawks said:
they needed to pump a younger candidate up once they lost the last election. What was the plan after Hillary lost? if the plan was 4 years later to have 3 main candidates in their late 70s to run against Trump it was a bad idea. I liked Yang, Pete and even Harris. I think if they had rallied around a younger candidate, got one united message around a younger candidate we'd be a lock to win in November. Now I still think Biden wins but what if he continues to slide down the hill mentally? Going to be a very interesting few months.mrussel1 said:
You're right, but which candidate do you believe has a better chance to win? Sanders is subject to all sorts of legitimate attacks. Warren has the same problems (to a lesser degree) as HRC. Who else? I liked Pete, but was concerned he's actually too young. I'd love to see another run. If you can't beat the old guy with no money, how are you going to beat Trump?pjhawks said:
It's both the party and the people but ultimately if they lose this election the party heads will take the fall. We as Dems cannot lose 2 electios to this human garbage named Trump. We have failed the world if we lose again.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.0 -
Biden
Almost everyone feels like a weak candidate until they win. And someone like Obama is a once in a generation, maybe once in a lifetime politician. If we wait around for that type of charisma, intelligence and emotional connection, you'll never vote for anyone. At the end of the day, people have to want to run and be willing to go through that brutal process. There are precious few willing to put themselves through it, let alone be qualified to do so.Jason P said:The GOP field four years ago was filled with weak candidates. Seems to be a trend.
Biden has a chance to maybe take some chances and try to grab the middle voter instead of catering to the far left that is going to vote for him anyway. There are a lot of people that really don't like what they are seeing of the far edges of the political spectrum.0 -
I questions one's sanity when they decide to run for POTUS. Around 30% of everyone in the USA will hate you no matter which side you rep or what you do.mrussel1 said:
Almost everyone feels like a weak candidate until they win. And someone like Obama is a once in a generation, maybe once in a lifetime politician. If we wait around for that type of charisma, intelligence and emotional connection, you'll never vote for anyone. At the end of the day, people have to want to run and be willing to go through that brutal process. There are precious few willing to put themselves through it, let alone be qualified to do so.Jason P said:The GOP field four years ago was filled with weak candidates. Seems to be a trend.
Biden has a chance to maybe take some chances and try to grab the middle voter instead of catering to the far left that is going to vote for him anyway. There are a lot of people that really don't like what they are seeing of the far edges of the political spectrum.Be Excellent To Each OtherParty On, Dudes!0 -
Biden
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.Scio me nihil scire
There are no kings inside the gates of eden0 -
Biden
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.0 -
Biden
A lot of groundswell against TPP was because people feared a repeat of NAFTA, more jobs leaving and lower wages.mrussel1 said:
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.Scio me nihil scire
There are no kings inside the gates of eden0 -
No, Team trump Treason pissed it away. To Static's point, its great to "shoot for the stars," but one has to be mindful that some in the societies, and definitely the ruling class/governments, see radical change or democratization as a threat. What happens when people are lifted out of poverty and have a higher standard of living? They start agitating for things other than "material things," like environmental protections, crack downs on corruption, individual rights and liberties, freedom of the press and expression, etc. and that becomes a threat, sometimes to be violently or subtly crushed. The alternative is incremental change where the generations coming up have a choice and see the difference between the two or more systems and make their own decisions/choices. The US demanding that they structure their society in the western democratic image is a recipe for disaster and ultimately failure. And its ignorant to expect that they should or do.mrussel1 said:
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.
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Brilliantati©0 -
Biden
I understand that. But it was misplaced. Sanders and Trump both bear responsibility. It made China stronger and damaged human rights campaigns in Malaysia and Vietnam to name a few.static111 said:
A lot of groundswell against TPP was because people feared a repeat of NAFTA, more jobs leaving and lower wages.mrussel1 said:
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.0 -
It also caused a trade and alliance pivot away from the US and toward China as the US was/is viewed as not being trustworthy and/or capable. Huge mistake, particularly in light of no strategy or alternative to replace it. Much like the repub plan for healthcare. Zilch. Zip, Nada. Zero. 10 years on. Now, that's leadership.mrussel1 said:
I understand that. But it was misplaced. Sanders and Trump both bear responsibility. It made China stronger and damaged human rights campaigns in Malaysia and Vietnam to name a few.static111 said:
A lot of groundswell against TPP was because people feared a repeat of NAFTA, more jobs leaving and lower wages.mrussel1 said:
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.
09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;
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Biden
I certainly wouldn’t be for promoting two party class based democracy worldwide. As evidenced by what’s happening here it has its draw backs. But a certain set of global worker rights and environmental protection to be a trading partner doesn’t seem unrealistic.Halifax2TheMax said:
No, Team trump Treason pissed it away. To Static's point, its great to "shoot for the stars," but one has to be mindful that some in the societies, and definitely the ruling class/governments, see radical change or democratization as a threat. What happens when people are lifted out of poverty and have a higher standard of living? They start agitating for things other than "material things," like environmental protections, crack downs on corruption, individual rights and liberties, freedom of the press and expression, etc. and that becomes a threat, sometimes to be violently or subtly crushed. The alternative is incremental change where the generations coming up have a choice and see the difference between the two or more systems and make their own decisions/choices. The US demanding that they structure their society in the western democratic image is a recipe for disaster and ultimately failure. And its ignorant to expect that they should or do.mrussel1 said:
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.Scio me nihil scire
There are no kings inside the gates of eden0 -
Difficult to be viewed as a “partner” when Team Trump Treason unilaterally withdraws your nation from the Paris Climate Accords. How does that help the cause?static111 said:
I certainly wouldn’t be for promoting two party class based democracy worldwide. As evidenced by what’s happening here it has its draw backs. But a certain set of global worker rights and environmental protection to be a trading partner doesn’t seem unrealistic.Halifax2TheMax said:
No, Team trump Treason pissed it away. To Static's point, its great to "shoot for the stars," but one has to be mindful that some in the societies, and definitely the ruling class/governments, see radical change or democratization as a threat. What happens when people are lifted out of poverty and have a higher standard of living? They start agitating for things other than "material things," like environmental protections, crack downs on corruption, individual rights and liberties, freedom of the press and expression, etc. and that becomes a threat, sometimes to be violently or subtly crushed. The alternative is incremental change where the generations coming up have a choice and see the difference between the two or more systems and make their own decisions/choices. The US demanding that they structure their society in the western democratic image is a recipe for disaster and ultimately failure. And its ignorant to expect that they should or do.mrussel1 said:
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;
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Biden
It's exactly what was in TPP.static111 said:
I certainly wouldn’t be for promoting two party class based democracy worldwide. As evidenced by what’s happening here it has its draw backs. But a certain set of global worker rights and environmental protection to be a trading partner doesn’t seem unrealistic.Halifax2TheMax said:
No, Team trump Treason pissed it away. To Static's point, its great to "shoot for the stars," but one has to be mindful that some in the societies, and definitely the ruling class/governments, see radical change or democratization as a threat. What happens when people are lifted out of poverty and have a higher standard of living? They start agitating for things other than "material things," like environmental protections, crack downs on corruption, individual rights and liberties, freedom of the press and expression, etc. and that becomes a threat, sometimes to be violently or subtly crushed. The alternative is incremental change where the generations coming up have a choice and see the difference between the two or more systems and make their own decisions/choices. The US demanding that they structure their society in the western democratic image is a recipe for disaster and ultimately failure. And its ignorant to expect that they should or do.mrussel1 said:
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.0 -
Biden
Would that have covered current trading partners or only new partners brought in with TPP? Is there a draft proposal I can read somewhere? I’m just skeptical that those worker protections are very thorough. I would like to read the actual documents and who knows maybe start a new thread and stop derailing this one. We are in the weeds a bit.mrussel1 said:
It's exactly what was in TPP.static111 said:
I certainly wouldn’t be for promoting two party class based democracy worldwide. As evidenced by what’s happening here it has its draw backs. But a certain set of global worker rights and environmental protection to be a trading partner doesn’t seem unrealistic.Halifax2TheMax said:
No, Team trump Treason pissed it away. To Static's point, its great to "shoot for the stars," but one has to be mindful that some in the societies, and definitely the ruling class/governments, see radical change or democratization as a threat. What happens when people are lifted out of poverty and have a higher standard of living? They start agitating for things other than "material things," like environmental protections, crack downs on corruption, individual rights and liberties, freedom of the press and expression, etc. and that becomes a threat, sometimes to be violently or subtly crushed. The alternative is incremental change where the generations coming up have a choice and see the difference between the two or more systems and make their own decisions/choices. The US demanding that they structure their society in the western democratic image is a recipe for disaster and ultimately failure. And its ignorant to expect that they should or do.mrussel1 said:
The TPP had a whole section on human rights and environmental protections. In fact, it was without question the strongest agreement on record for those two issues. I'm furious to this day that it was scrapped. It was a model for the future but we pissed it away.static111 said:
The other option is to demand equal rights or rights on par with ours for the people of countries that we do business with, which isn’t isolationist or protectionist, or racist.. It’s not about being sorry it’s about recognizing mistakes and doing more going forward not just incrementally. Shoot for the moon hit the stars kind of thing.mrussel1 said:
You're right on most points, although I probably disagree in degrees on where you sit, I'm sure. But what you've outlined is a no win situation. Either Democrats are full blown nationalists or protectionists, or they subject immigrants to the accusations of job stealers, which is what the right wing media has done. So what's the solution? The TPP had much stronger worker standards than NAFTA and boxed out China. Yet Sanders and Trump railed against, drawing a weak HRC to move against it because was attacked on both flanks. Are we better off with China now setting up to dominate SE Asia and Oceania? Idiots and ignorance rule. I'm sorry, I don't blame Democrats for expanding globalism and lifting up both the world and the US economy (as a whole), while pushing for more protections. It's not the Democrats fault that right wing media is totally without morals.static111 said:
Allowing capital to cross borders with protections and exclusivity but not returning the same protections to workers at home and abroad. Which created a disastrous economic climate here and overseas, creating sweatshop labor like never before and forcing exploited workers in the US to compete with exploited workers in said sweatshops driving wages down at home and creating more global disparity abroad. Those conditions were created by both sides, and because they gave rise to anger, financial insolvency and misplaced rage it was very easy for unscrupulous right wing talking points to then poison peoples mind, othering groups that were different than them creating a groundswell of support to misplace their anger and blame at various levels of identity politics rather than the politicians and economic class that allowed all of that to happen. See the Powell memo and the Trilateral commission report those documents Are the blueprints that have created the power systems of today. And this isn’t harping on Globalism. I think globalism is a great idea if all workers are given a global bill of rights. The current system based on wars and rapid growth profits at the expense of people is the underlying problem. Do democrats have a smaller share of the blame? Arguably yes. Would you have to be a fool to not vote for a Democrat in today’s political climate? Also yes. Is it ok to express misgivings about electability of a candidate outside of a left wing message board? Also yes.mrussel1 said:
Right, which conditions... gay marriage, Mexicans. Anything else? You think it's taxes? Free market capitalism? Free trade? War? These are all the things that right wing media supported without fail until 2016, and mostly still supports today. So it must be the gays and Mexicans. Shame on the Democrats for fostering that environment.static111 said:
I took the OPs point differently I didn’t read any smoky rooms into it. Some legitimate criticisms of electability and a genuine worry that (we) Dems might blow another election.mrussel1 said:
It's not the type of argument a MAGA person makes. Look at the point I'm countering that "Dems" made a terrible choice, as if the party elders sat in a smoke filled room and rolled him out. Rather, the candidate with a fraction of the cash on hand vs Sanders and Warren whipped them. That's democracy in action. The people made the choice. If PJHawks wants to lament the choice of the people, that's fine, but it's not the party.static111 said:
Whenever people have in the past voiced any concern they are met with comments like “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” “Berniebro”. or “look at the record of a career civil servant” that are intended to delegitimize their Concerns. Maybe it is not an outright attack, but their isn’t an awful lot of discussion going on when people level any concern about Biden’s electability.mrussel1 said:
Attacked? Countering your argument is commensurate with being attacked? I think you misunderstand, or just willfully ignore the points that people are making. The criticisms of Joe are small and petty and many of us here don't have interest in seeing them breathe. If you want to post your 'slightest reservation' (which is kind of funny since you said you're not voting for Biden, yet speaking for those that are), don't expect many of us not to counter those with our arguments. Your sensibilities aren't really a concern when the commander in chief is tweeting conspiracy theories and threatening to shut down or regulate the speech of private companies.pjl44 said:
It's absurdly hilarious to watch. Declaring that you're voting for Biden isn't enough. If you express even the slightest reservation, you still get attacked.static111 said:
It’s better to just attack people’s opinions when they are critical of joe, because this election is a referendum on trump and Biden has the victory in hand.pjl44 said:
People carry on like there isn't 30+ years of video clips where you can notice a difference. It's emperor's-new-clothes level shit. It makes sense to me that people would vote for him regardless, but let's talk about this stuff like reasonable adults.pjhawks said:
don't get me wrong I'm voting for Biden or anyone who is on that line, but i don't think if you look at it honestly that Biden looks good. It's pretty clear he is losing his faculties.Gern Blansten said:
He's fine...tRump looks horrible. He's loud so he comes across as more "fit" but he's a walking heart attack.pjhawks said:Biden’s age and condition has me worried. I mean he looks out of it. just a bad idea to have such an old man at the top of the ticket. I mean you know only the possible future of the country and the world is at stake with this election so it’s not like it’s important or anything. Heck if he makes it to November and wins there is just very little chance he will be cognizant for four years either. I can’t believe the dems might blow another electionPersonally I think that immediately delegitimizing someone’s point Rather than have a discussion is akin to attacking especially on a message board where nuance and tone aren’t always coming through as intended.I mean a statement like. “ Don't you hate it when millions of people disagree with your choices? Democracy sucks. ” Is basically the type of argument that MAGA people make when you criticize their illustrious leader. So yeah democracy sucks and it got us Trump I will agree with the statement as far as that goes.
Back to Biden, I think people are forgetting that politics as usual are what got us tRump in the first place. If we are to just look at his career and stand by his record without critiquing anything, isn’t that the same in a way as saying that we are ok with the system and policies of the last 40 years that led to us to ultimately having that sucky Democracy deliver us the death dirge of Trumpism?
And 'politics as usual' didn't give us Trump, the rise of right wing media in the 90s gave us Trump. You're using Sanders language but we learned, emphatically, that the left of center didn't buy that argument.
potato potato as far as right wing media giving rise to trump. What condition led to the dissatisfaction that so many people’s politics started drifting to the right?. It isn’t all right wing propaganda conspiracy. We have some great propaganda outlets on outside too.Free market capitalism does not exist in today’s economy nor does free trade.
as for persona Halifax to the max, yeah I mean anyone would be stupid to make a deal with trump. I don’t think that has ever been at issue.Scio me nihil scire
There are no kings inside the gates of eden0 -
Back to Biden. 2 general comments.
1. Although I have been saying Trump has an excellent chance, I am encouraged by what I have seen lately on reddit politics. That place usually has very strong support for sanders and warren, a lot of younger socialist leaning voters. And since March, there has been a lot of disappointment with Biden and many saying they are struggling to support him.
But that has been changing lately. They have seen how dangerous trump can be with his incompetent handling of covid. And Biden connected in a huge way this week on the police brutality issue and trump seemingly glorifying violence.
2. Polling article today. A lot of very encouraging news:
” (CNN)A new ABC News/Washington Post poll shows former Vice President Joe Biden clearly ahead of President Donald Trump. Biden's up by a 53% to 43% margin among registered voters in this survey.But it's important to put individual polls into context, and that context continues to show Biden's in one of the best positions for any challenger since scientific polling began in the 1930s.There were more than 40 national public polls taken at least partially in the month of May that asked about the Biden-Trump matchup. Biden led in every single one of them. He's the first challenger to be ahead of the incumbent in every May poll since Jimmy Carter did so in 1976. Carter, of course, won the 1976 election. Biden's the only challenger to have the advantage in every May poll over an elected incumbent in the polling era.Biden remains the lone challenger to be up in the average of polls in every single month of the election year. His average lead in a monthly average of polls has never dipped below 4 points and has usually been above it.0 -
Biden
For the life of me I do not understand the "struggling to support him" crowd. There are two fucking choices and we know how one governs/leads for sure.Lerxst1992 said:Back to Biden. 2 general comments.
1. Although I have been saying Trump has an excellent chance, I am encouraged by what I have seen lately on reddit politics. That place usually has very strong support for sanders and warren, a lot of younger socialist leaning voters. And since March, there has been a lot of disappointment with Biden and many saying they are struggling to support him.
But that has been changing lately. They have seen how dangerous trump can be with his incompetent handling of covid. And Biden connected in a huge way this week on the police brutality issue and trump seemingly glorifying violence.
2. Polling article today. A lot of very encouraging news:
” (CNN)A new ABC News/Washington Post poll shows former Vice President Joe Biden clearly ahead of President Donald Trump. Biden's up by a 53% to 43% margin among registered voters in this survey.But it's important to put individual polls into context, and that context continues to show Biden's in one of the best positions for any challenger since scientific polling began in the 1930s.There were more than 40 national public polls taken at least partially in the month of May that asked about the Biden-Trump matchup. Biden led in every single one of them. He's the first challenger to be ahead of the incumbent in every May poll since Jimmy Carter did so in 1976. Carter, of course, won the 1976 election. Biden's the only challenger to have the advantage in every May poll over an elected incumbent in the polling era.Biden remains the lone challenger to be up in the average of polls in every single month of the election year. His average lead in a monthly average of polls has never dipped below 4 points and has usually been above it.
I realize you refer to how some opinions are changing....I just don't understand how people can be on the fence given what happened in 2016.Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20 -
Biden
2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com0 -
Bidenhttps://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1267278651583848448
Good one...it is about time someone spelled this out clearly. The confederate flag represents treason and the enemy of the USRemember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt20
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