Having Kids. Selfish Act?

mcgruff10 · August 2019

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

mfc2006 · August 2019

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

That's awesome!

We're hoping to have some kiddos soon and we're excited. I don't think it's selfish at all either.

PJ_Soul · August 2019

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

mcgruff10 · August 2019

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

Huh? Where do you get? I only talked about having kids. To each their own but I stand by my opinion that It is selfless to have kids, not selfish.

PJ_Soul · August 2019

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

Huh? Where do you get? I only talked about having kids. To each their own but I stand by my opinion that It is selfless to have kids, not selfish.

I got if from the part about "to me it is the total opposite". I thought that could mean that you don't think it is selfish to have kids, but it's opposite, i.e. it is selfish not to have them. But now I understand what you meant. That's why I asked.

Some people are 100% selfish about having kids though. It depends on the circumstances.

mcgruff10 · August 2019

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

Huh? Where do you get? I only talked about having kids. To each their own but I stand by my opinion that It is selfless to have kids, not selfish.

I got if from the part about "to me it is the total opposite". I thought that could mean that you don't think it is selfish to have kids, but it's opposite, i.e. it is selfish not to have them. But now I understand what you meant. That's why I asked.
Some people are 100% selfish about having kids though. It depends on the circumstances.

Sorry for not being clear. I totally respect people who want to have kids and those who do not want kids. I am definitely a “to each their own” person.

PJ_Soul · August 2019

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

Huh? Where do you get? I only talked about having kids. To each their own but I stand by my opinion that It is selfless to have kids, not selfish.

I got if from the part about "to me it is the total opposite". I thought that could mean that you don't think it is selfish to have kids, but it's opposite, i.e. it is selfish not to have them. But now I understand what you meant. That's why I asked.
Some people are 100% selfish about having kids though. It depends on the circumstances.

Sorry for not being clear. I totally respect people who want to have kids and those who do not want kids. I am definitely a “to each their own” person.

Werd.

But btw, I don't believe that having kids is selfish in general, excluding those with the terrible reasons, but I also don't think at all that it is a selfless act. Procreation definitely has nothing to do with altruism. People get joy plus the comfort of carrying themselves on genetically, and to build on various pleasures and to fulfill perceived responsibilities and roles, so that alone makes it impossible for it to be selfless.

rgambs · August 2019

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:I

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

Huh? Where do you get? I only talked about having kids. To each their own but I stand by my opinion that It is selfless to have kids, not selfish.

I got if from the part about "to me it is the total opposite". I thought that could mean that you don't think it is selfish to have kids, but it's opposite, i.e. it is selfish not to have them. But now I understand what you meant. That's why I asked.
Some people are 100% selfish about having kids though. It depends on the circumstances.

Sorry for not being clear. I totally respect people who want to have kids and those who do not want kids. I am definitely a “to each their own” person.

Werd.

But btw, I don't believe that having kids is selfish in general, excluding those with the terrible reasons, but I also don't think at all that it is a selfless act. Procreation definitely has nothing to do with altruism. People get joy plus the comfort of carrying themselves on genetically, and to build on various pleasures and to fulfill perceived responsibilities and roles, so that alone makes it impossible for it to be selfless.

Definitely agree that it isn't selfless to have kids.
Most of us are hormonally driven to reproduce and hormonally rewarded for it.

Now, adopting and fostering are much closer to selfless, but I am in that category of people who wonder if there even is such a thing as a selfless act due to the dopamine release that altruism usually triggers.
It's certainly a rarity in my opinion.

jeffbr · August 2019

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:I

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

Huh? Where do you get? I only talked about having kids. To each their own but I stand by my opinion that It is selfless to have kids, not selfish.

I got if from the part about "to me it is the total opposite". I thought that could mean that you don't think it is selfish to have kids, but it's opposite, i.e. it is selfish not to have them. But now I understand what you meant. That's why I asked.
Some people are 100% selfish about having kids though. It depends on the circumstances.

Sorry for not being clear. I totally respect people who want to have kids and those who do not want kids. I am definitely a “to each their own” person.

Werd.

But btw, I don't believe that having kids is selfish in general, excluding those with the terrible reasons, but I also don't think at all that it is a selfless act. Procreation definitely has nothing to do with altruism. People get joy plus the comfort of carrying themselves on genetically, and to build on various pleasures and to fulfill perceived responsibilities and roles, so that alone makes it impossible for it to be selfless.

Definitely agree that it isn't selfless to have kids.
Most of us are hormonally driven to reproduce and hormonally rewarded for it.

Now, adopting and fostering are much closer to selfless, but I am in that category of people who wonder if there even is such a thing as a selfless act due to the dopamine release that altruism usually triggers.
It's certainly a rarity in my opinion.

I agree about altruism. I don't really believe there's such a thing but it is hard to really tell. It is more like enlightened self-interest. We do something good because it makes us feel good. Or we do something good to better society so we have a better society to live in. We give to charity because it makes us feel good (and for some they get a meaningful tax credit). Behind every "altruistic" act is something personal that we get pleasure or satisfaction or benefit from in some way. Now, pure altruism may exist, I'm not sure either, but what most consider altruism, I'd consider enlightened self-interest.

PJ_Soul · August 2019

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:I

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

Huh? Where do you get? I only talked about having kids. To each their own but I stand by my opinion that It is selfless to have kids, not selfish.

I got if from the part about "to me it is the total opposite". I thought that could mean that you don't think it is selfish to have kids, but it's opposite, i.e. it is selfish not to have them. But now I understand what you meant. That's why I asked.
Some people are 100% selfish about having kids though. It depends on the circumstances.

Sorry for not being clear. I totally respect people who want to have kids and those who do not want kids. I am definitely a “to each their own” person.

Werd.

But btw, I don't believe that having kids is selfish in general, excluding those with the terrible reasons, but I also don't think at all that it is a selfless act. Procreation definitely has nothing to do with altruism. People get joy plus the comfort of carrying themselves on genetically, and to build on various pleasures and to fulfill perceived responsibilities and roles, so that alone makes it impossible for it to be selfless.

Definitely agree that it isn't selfless to have kids.
Most of us are hormonally driven to reproduce and hormonally rewarded for it.

Now, adopting and fostering are much closer to selfless, but I am in that category of people who wonder if there even is such a thing as a selfless act due to the dopamine release that altruism usually triggers.
It's certainly a rarity in my opinion.

I agree about altruism. I don't really believe there's such a thing but it is hard to really tell. It is more like enlightened self-interest. We do something good because it makes us feel good. Or we do something good to better society so we have a better society to live in. We give to charity because it makes us feel good (and for some they get a meaningful tax credit). Behind every "altruistic" act is something personal that we get pleasure or satisfaction or benefit from in some way. Now, pure altruism may exist, I'm not sure either, but what most consider altruism, I'd consider enlightened self-interest.

I do believe that true altruism is possible, but it's extremely rare. The first example that comes to mind is if someone literally sacrifices their life for a stranger. It almost never happens, but it has been known to happen.

brianlux · August 2019

I agree with what PJ_Soul said earlier- not so much selfish as irresponsible (but probably a little selfish too). I never had kids myself, but I understand why there is the desire. And for women, it is very much a nature driven desire often referred to as "maternal instinct". I don't dislike kids although I am often angry at parents who don't make an effort to learn some good parenting skills. I have three godchildren, a gaggle of nephew and nieces and grand nephews and nieces and great grand nephews and nieces. They're all great kids. But the youngest of them I fear for. They are in for a very, very difficult future. I say that not as an alarmist, but as a realist.

And what I see happening is that more an more the people who are having kids are less educated, and less aware or ill-informed about world events. That's not going to help matters any at all.

Meltdown99 · August 2019

brianlux said:

I agree with what PJ_Soul said earlier- not so much selfish as irresponsible (but probably a little selfish too). I never had kids myself, but I understand why there is the desire. And for women, it is very much a nature driven desire often referred to as "maternal instinct". I don't dislike kids although I am often angry at parents who don't make an effort to learn some good parenting skills. I have three godchildren, a gaggle of nephew and nieces and grand nephews and nieces and great grand nephews and nieces. They're all great kids. But the youngest of them I fear for. They are in for a very, very difficult future. I say that not as an alarmist, but as a realist.

And what I see happening is that more an more the people who are having kids are less educated, and less aware or ill-informed about world events. That's not going to help matters any at all.

Are you going around asking people who have kids what level of education you have? This attack on the less educated reeks of elitism.

F Me In The Brain · August 2019

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

I agree with what PJ_Soul said earlier- not so much selfish as irresponsible (but probably a little selfish too). I never had kids myself, but I understand why there is the desire. And for women, it is very much a nature driven desire often referred to as "maternal instinct". I don't dislike kids although I am often angry at parents who don't make an effort to learn some good parenting skills. I have three godchildren, a gaggle of nephew and nieces and grand nephews and nieces and great grand nephews and nieces. They're all great kids. But the youngest of them I fear for. They are in for a very, very difficult future. I say that not as an alarmist, but as a realist.

And what I see happening is that more an more the people who are having kids are less educated, and less aware or ill-informed about world events. That's not going to help matters any at all.

Are you going around asking people who have kids what level of education you have? This attack on the less educated reeks of elitism.

Wow, I don't get that at all from what he wrote.
Just a nice way of saying idiots breed kids who learn idiot habits.
If you disagree with that I would be surprised.
I totally agree
Idiots raise kids in idiotic ways, and produce the next generation of fucking Trump supporters.

Meltdown99 · August 2019

Who do you consider educated? The person who tried kindergarten felt it wasn't for them and dropped out, the grade 8 dropout, the high school drop out, someone with grade 12? Got news for some of you there are people with less formal that is talented and amazing. I worked with a fellow ... grade 8 education ... He could fix and repair any vehicle, he pulled 50 grand a year.

What about tradespeople, many of them would shock you with how much they make.

What about farmers. Many have very little education...but they run farms and feed us.

What about truck drivers? If you gotta, a truck brought it in most cases.

brianlux · August 2019

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

I agree with what PJ_Soul said earlier- not so much selfish as irresponsible (but probably a little selfish too). I never had kids myself, but I understand why there is the desire. And for women, it is very much a nature driven desire often referred to as "maternal instinct". I don't dislike kids although I am often angry at parents who don't make an effort to learn some good parenting skills. I have three godchildren, a gaggle of nephew and nieces and grand nephews and nieces and great grand nephews and nieces. They're all great kids. But the youngest of them I fear for. They are in for a very, very difficult future. I say that not as an alarmist, but as a realist.

And what I see happening is that more an more the people who are having kids are less educated, and less aware or ill-informed about world events. That's not going to help matters any at all.

Are you going around asking people who have kids what level of education you have? This attack on the less educated reeks of elitism.

My comment is based partly on people I know, partly on observation, and partly on statistics (that you can easily look up, so do it).

As for the reeking stench of what you perceive as elitism, all I can offer is this:

Now go be pissed off at someone else. I'm having a rough week.

F Me In The Brain · August 2019

Meltdown99 said:

Who do you consider educated? The person who tried kindergarten felt it wasn't for them and dropped out, the grade 8 dropout, the high school drop out, someone with grade 12? Got news for some of you there are people with less formal that is talented and amazing. I worked with a fellow ... grade 8 education ... He could fix and repair any vehicle, he pulled 50 grand a year.

What about tradespeople, many of them would shock you with how much they make.

What about farmers. Many have very little education...but they run farms and feed us.

What about truck drivers? If you gotta, a truck brought it in most cases.

Fucking hell. Sorry that I can't get it to separate
I don't view that sort of comment about the grade level, but more about people acting like idiots and showing that they are "uneducated"
My CEO never went to college.
I don't put an emphasis on schooling, but on how someone behaves.
.guessing the same for Brian, but he can answer that.

brianlux · August 2019

F Me In The Brain said:

Meltdown99 said:

Who do you consider educated? The person who tried kindergarten felt it wasn't for them and dropped out, the grade 8 dropout, the high school drop out, someone with grade 12? Got news for some of you there are people with less formal that is talented and amazing. I worked with a fellow ... grade 8 education ... He could fix and repair any vehicle, he pulled 50 grand a year.

What about tradespeople, many of them would shock you with how much they make.

What about farmers. Many have very little education...but they run farms and feed us.

What about truck drivers? If you gotta, a truck brought it in most cases.

Fucking hell. Sorry that I can't get it to separate
I don't view that sort of comment about the grade level, but more about people acting like idiots and showing that they are "uneducated"
My CEO never went to college.
I don't put an emphasis on schooling, but on how someone behaves.
.guessing the same for Brian, but he can answer that.

"I don't put an emphasis on schooling, but on how someone behaves." Nailed it!

I did say something about un-educated people have more kids. I think that's true but maybe what I should have been more precise. There are a lot of really great people of varying education levels who have had kids- many of them right here on these forums. Some of the best people I have ever met have kids- my wife had a kid and she is smart, kind, and just naturally a good soul (not at all cranky like me!) But if you work with the public or even just get out a lot, you see lot of really shitty parenting going on. It's easy to spot. I even see it a lot in the bookstore and we generally have a more intelligent customer base (because we sell books) than a lot of other shops (not to put other shops down, of course).

As for school, there are stupid college graduates and brilliant drop outs. School is only good for what you put into it and get out of it. I hated high school but loved college, but it was just a matter of what I like doing a lot of the time. Some of my very best friends and the best people I know have been drop outs.

And Meltdown, there are farmers like Lou Reed sings about in "Future Farmers of America" and there are farmers like my brother who is one of the smartest people I've ever met. Wendell Berry is a Farmer and one of the most recognized authors of our time. I don't think anyone is generalizing about people's intelligence based on their job. Shouldn't anyway. Paul Westerberg, for example, was a janitor. And he's a fucking genius too.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of information showing that better educated women have fewer children. There are plenty of studies showing that. It's easy to find that info on the internet. Check it out.

cincybearcat · August 2019

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Just taught my three ten year olds how to surf, I wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world. Having kids is the greatest/hardest thing ever. I don’t think it is selfish to have kids, to me it is the total opposite.

So you're saying that it is selfish not to have kids??

Huh? Where do you get? I only talked about having kids. To each their own but I stand by my opinion that It is selfless to have kids, not selfish.

I got if from the part about "to me it is the total opposite". I thought that could mean that you don't think it is selfish to have kids, but it's opposite, i.e. it is selfish not to have them. But now I understand what you meant. That's why I asked.
Some people are 100% selfish about having kids though. It depends on the circumstances.

Sorry for not being clear. I totally respect people who want to have kids and those who do not want kids. I am definitely a “to each their own” person.

Werd.

But btw, I don't believe that having kids is selfish in general, excluding those with the terrible reasons, but I also don't think at all that it is a selfless act. Procreation definitely has nothing to do with altruism. People get joy plus the comfort of carrying themselves on genetically, and to build on various pleasures and to fulfill perceived responsibilities and roles, so that alone makes it impossible for it to be selfless.

I tend to disagree a little. Having a kid, you change your whole life and they are your first thought on decisions, etc. So nothing is 100% selfless...but raising a kid is pretty close for some. Actually, for some having a child is 100% selfless...but those parents annoy me.

HughFreakingDillon · August 2019

brianlux said:

F Me In The Brain said:

Meltdown99 said:

Who do you consider educated? The person who tried kindergarten felt it wasn't for them and dropped out, the grade 8 dropout, the high school drop out, someone with grade 12? Got news for some of you there are people with less formal that is talented and amazing. I worked with a fellow ... grade 8 education ... He could fix and repair any vehicle, he pulled 50 grand a year.

What about tradespeople, many of them would shock you with how much they make.

What about farmers. Many have very little education...but they run farms and feed us.

What about truck drivers? If you gotta, a truck brought it in most cases.

Fucking hell. Sorry that I can't get it to separate
I don't view that sort of comment about the grade level, but more about people acting like idiots and showing that they are "uneducated"
My CEO never went to college.
I don't put an emphasis on schooling, but on how someone behaves.
.guessing the same for Brian, but he can answer that.

"I don't put an emphasis on schooling, but on how someone behaves." Nailed it!

I did say something about un-educated people have more kids. I think that's true but maybe what I should have been more precise. There are a lot of really great people of varying education levels who have had kids- many of them right here on these forums. Some of the best people I have ever met have kids- my wife had a kid and she is smart, kind, and just naturally a good soul (not at all cranky like me!) But if you work with the public or even just get out a lot, you see lot of really shitty parenting going on. It's easy to spot. I even see it a lot in the bookstore and we generally have a more intelligent customer base (because we sell books) than a lot of other shops (not to put other shops down, of course).

As for school, there are stupid college graduates and brilliant drop outs. School is only good for what you put into it and get out of it. I hated high school but loved college, but it was just a matter of what I like doing a lot of the time. Some of my very best friends and the best people I know have been drop outs.

And Meltdown, there are farmers like Lou Reed sings about in "Future Farmers of America" and there are farmers like my brother who is one of the smartest people I've ever met. Wendell Berry is a Farmer and one of the most recognized authors of our time. I don't think anyone is generalizing about people's intelligence based on their job. Shouldn't anyway. Paul Westerberg, for example, was a janitor. And he's a fucking genius too.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of information showing that better educated women have fewer children. There are plenty of studies showing that. It's easy to find that info on the internet. Check it out.

I think an important point about your last paragraph is that, just because better educated women tend to have fewer children, isn't necessarily because they are "smarter", it's because they are most likely more career-driven.

I can't imagine living in a time, as recently as the 60's, where if you didn't have kids you were considered some kind of fucking weirdo, as a female. Dudes were heralded for how studly they were. Women were pariahs. Now, it's leaning heavily on "do what makes you happy". Which I think is actually important for the world. We NEED more people not having kids. I honestly selfishly wanted more kids (probably just one more), our finances just dictated that we don't. I'm kind of glad we didn't. Now we're in a place where the 4 of us can afford to actually do things, like go on occasional trips, and fun in life.

I'll be honest, when I first joined facebook (now deleted), and found so many old friends, I was astounded at the number of women who weren't married and/or had no kids. I'm sure most by choice, some sadly not. It was ingrained in us that is just what you do; marry and have a family. Not pressured, that's just what you saw, in real life and on tv. Now it's finally evolved where women often aren't shamed for being single or childless.

josevolution · August 2019

I’m a parent of two grown kids , I’m happy screw everyone else !

Having Kids. Selfish Act?

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