Where would you rather live the US or Sweden

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

Meltdown99 said:

LMFAO.  The US justice system is a complete joke.  Honestly, how can any American be proud of that system?  Michigan had locked up the FBI's youngest informant ever, White Boy Rick, he was sentenced 30 years for a non-violent drug offence (he was a juvenile when the crime was committed).  Why did he get 30 years...because he was too good as an informant and was bringing down some high profile Detroit elite's and gangs.  And there are more of these stories in the US prison system.

Absolutely. 

In the absence of any non-biased information, I'm going to go with what is generally known about the justice systems of the two countries and assume that this guy is being held in better condition in Sweden than if he had been incarcerated in the US for the same offence. 

If in the US, he'd have been released within a few hours unless he had a previous contempt charge (failure to appear), so I'm pretty sure ASAP's conditions would be better in the US, at home. 

Is this why you have people like that Epstein guy and Manafort being able to bride witnesses and such?

Yes, because you're innocent until proven guilty, you can prepare for your trial out of jail.  If you choose to commit another crime, that's on you.  You don't have to defend an arcane system of locking people up for 2 weeks over such a small offense.  

Small offense? 

He is suspected of " grave assault". He would not be sitting in custody if not the jail time for the crime would be 1 year or more. 

His suspicion level is 3 out of 4 (På sannolika skäl misstänkt = "on probable grounds))


On probable grounds. The suspicion is justified by an objective assessment. It requires something that further binds the person to the crime, such as a witness or technical evidence. Example: A witness has seen that a person has picked up the wallet.

Are you choosing to jump in and be obtuse by choice just to not forfeit your "bald eagles and freedom"?

So you believe it was a small offense (even though the jail time could be 1 year). 
You believe he would only be served one (1) apple in prison.
You believe he was served dirty water?

Funny shit.

I'm choosing to believe in the system of English common law that has been the pinnacle of first world justice in Canada, the US, UK, etc. since the Magna Carta.  I won't defend the execution of the law for every state, jurisdiction, etc., but it seems barbaric to keep someone in jail, without access to privileged attorney conversation, for two weeks.  Outrageous.  

I don't think this is the first or the last time you will jump into a discussion just to find something to shit on Sweden for - without having taking note of what the story is. 

But he has had the rights to privileged attorney conversation. A swedish custody isn't Gauantamony Bay - that is an american invention. 

And if you would have read what I have posted in this thread instead of looking past everything in a search to gotcha me. You would have 1) known that he has had that right and 2) known that he isn't not suspected of a "small offense" 

So let us conclude:

Rule of Law - Sweden beats the US
Human rights - Sweden beats the US

But I guess you won't take in that because of:

I like how everything is a contest for you.  According to reports, he has not been allowed privileged conversations with his attorney or the consulate.  The difference is you are defending this system.  I won't defend the permanent detention of combatants in Gitmo.  

exactly. at no point in my initial post did i try to compare US to Sweden. I just asked if this is truly a fair system.  If being held for two weeks during an investigation is the norm i find that harsh and unfair.  

pjhawks said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

Meltdown99 said:

LMFAO.  The US justice system is a complete joke.  Honestly, how can any American be proud of that system?  Michigan had locked up the FBI's youngest informant ever, White Boy Rick, he was sentenced 30 years for a non-violent drug offence (he was a juvenile when the crime was committed).  Why did he get 30 years...because he was too good as an informant and was bringing down some high profile Detroit elite's and gangs.  And there are more of these stories in the US prison system.

Absolutely. 

In the absence of any non-biased information, I'm going to go with what is generally known about the justice systems of the two countries and assume that this guy is being held in better condition in Sweden than if he had been incarcerated in the US for the same offence. 

If in the US, he'd have been released within a few hours unless he had a previous contempt charge (failure to appear), so I'm pretty sure ASAP's conditions would be better in the US, at home. 

Is this why you have people like that Epstein guy and Manafort being able to bride witnesses and such?

Yes, because you're innocent until proven guilty, you can prepare for your trial out of jail.  If you choose to commit another crime, that's on you.  You don't have to defend an arcane system of locking people up for 2 weeks over such a small offense.  

Small offense? 

He is suspected of " grave assault". He would not be sitting in custody if not the jail time for the crime would be 1 year or more. 

His suspicion level is 3 out of 4 (På sannolika skäl misstänkt = "on probable grounds))


On probable grounds. The suspicion is justified by an objective assessment. It requires something that further binds the person to the crime, such as a witness or technical evidence. Example: A witness has seen that a person has picked up the wallet.

Are you choosing to jump in and be obtuse by choice just to not forfeit your "bald eagles and freedom"?

So you believe it was a small offense (even though the jail time could be 1 year). 
You believe he would only be served one (1) apple in prison.
You believe he was served dirty water?

Funny shit.

I'm choosing to believe in the system of English common law that has been the pinnacle of first world justice in Canada, the US, UK, etc. since the Magna Carta.  I won't defend the execution of the law for every state, jurisdiction, etc., but it seems barbaric to keep someone in jail, without access to privileged attorney conversation, for two weeks.  Outrageous.  

I don't think this is the first or the last time you will jump into a discussion just to find something to shit on Sweden for - without having taking note of what the story is. 

But he has had the rights to privileged attorney conversation. A swedish custody isn't Gauantamony Bay - that is an american invention. 

And if you would have read what I have posted in this thread instead of looking past everything in a search to gotcha me. You would have 1) known that he has had that right and 2) known that he isn't not suspected of a "small offense" 

So let us conclude:

Rule of Law - Sweden beats the US
Human rights - Sweden beats the US

But I guess you won't take in that because of:

I like how everything is a contest for you.  According to reports, he has not been allowed privileged conversations with his attorney or the consulate.  The difference is you are defending this system.  I won't defend the permanent detention of combatants in Gitmo.  

exactly. at no point in my initial post did i try to compare US to Sweden. I just asked if this is truly a fair system.  If being held for two weeks during an investigation is the norm i find that harsh and unfair.  

Not the norm. Read up on why.

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Where does it say he has not had privileged conversations with a lawyer?

John Ehmann, Rocky’s manager, wrote on Instagram. “On the day of his arrest, I spoke with the U.S. Embassy Consult who informed me that his request to visit Rocky was rejected by police, which violates article 36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, to which Sweden is a signatory. Since then, he has been allowed to visit with a U.S. Embassy Consult and attorney, but only in the presence of Swedish officials. It is troubling and worrisome that the laws are not being applied equally.”

It's from the original RS article posted. 

So, what was the reason it was rejected? You think swedish police would reject it "just because"?
Where does it say that it is a violation to not leave him alone with the Embassy Consulate? That person is not his lawyer?
Where does it say he has not had privileged conversations with a lawyer?  His lawyer is Henrik Olsson Lilja not someone from the Embassy. I think you are reading that dudes instagram post in the wrong way. But could be wrong.

And wait - funny things from the fake news haven of the USA:

ASAP Rocky through his lawyer:

"He has never talked to TMZ or any third party regarding the circumstances when he was arrested, ie when he was in the prison. He was then treated and is treated correctly."

"He was to receive a visit from American staff at an early stage when he was arrested but understood that staff from the embassy were not allowed to enter. At a later date, a few days later, however, he has been visited."

And:

TMZ's article also writes that the detention has violated the Vienna Convention, which gives foreign citizens the right to meet their consulate. However, it is nothing that lawyer Henrik Olsson Lilja agrees with.
- He has no restrictions, he can meet who he wants, the problem is that it takes some time, he says.

pjhawks said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

pjhawks said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

Meltdown99 said:

LMFAO.  The US justice system is a complete joke.  Honestly, how can any American be proud of that system?  Michigan had locked up the FBI's youngest informant ever, White Boy Rick, he was sentenced 30 years for a non-violent drug offence (he was a juvenile when the crime was committed).  Why did he get 30 years...because he was too good as an informant and was bringing down some high profile Detroit elite's and gangs.  And there are more of these stories in the US prison system.

Absolutely. 

In the absence of any non-biased information, I'm going to go with what is generally known about the justice systems of the two countries and assume that this guy is being held in better condition in Sweden than if he had been incarcerated in the US for the same offence. 

If in the US, he'd have been released within a few hours unless he had a previous contempt charge (failure to appear), so I'm pretty sure ASAP's conditions would be better in the US, at home. 

Is this why you have people like that Epstein guy and Manafort being able to bride witnesses and such?

Yes, because you're innocent until proven guilty, you can prepare for your trial out of jail.  If you choose to commit another crime, that's on you.  You don't have to defend an arcane system of locking people up for 2 weeks over such a small offense.  

Small offense? 

He is suspected of " grave assault". He would not be sitting in custody if not the jail time for the crime would be 1 year or more. 

His suspicion level is 3 out of 4 (På sannolika skäl misstänkt = "on probable grounds))


On probable grounds. The suspicion is justified by an objective assessment. It requires something that further binds the person to the crime, such as a witness or technical evidence. Example: A witness has seen that a person has picked up the wallet.

Are you choosing to jump in and be obtuse by choice just to not forfeit your "bald eagles and freedom"?

So you believe it was a small offense (even though the jail time could be 1 year). 
You believe he would only be served one (1) apple in prison.
You believe he was served dirty water?

Funny shit.

I'm choosing to believe in the system of English common law that has been the pinnacle of first world justice in Canada, the US, UK, etc. since the Magna Carta.  I won't defend the execution of the law for every state, jurisdiction, etc., but it seems barbaric to keep someone in jail, without access to privileged attorney conversation, for two weeks.  Outrageous.  

I don't think this is the first or the last time you will jump into a discussion just to find something to shit on Sweden for - without having taking note of what the story is. 

But he has had the rights to privileged attorney conversation. A swedish custody isn't Gauantamony Bay - that is an american invention. 

And if you would have read what I have posted in this thread instead of looking past everything in a search to gotcha me. You would have 1) known that he has had that right and 2) known that he isn't not suspected of a "small offense" 

So let us conclude:

Rule of Law - Sweden beats the US
Human rights - Sweden beats the US

But I guess you won't take in that because of:

I like how everything is a contest for you.  According to reports, he has not been allowed privileged conversations with his attorney or the consulate.  The difference is you are defending this system.  I won't defend the permanent detention of combatants in Gitmo.  

exactly. at no point in my initial post did i try to compare US to Sweden. I just asked if this is truly a fair system.  If being held for two weeks during an investigation is the norm i find that harsh and unfair.  

Not the norm. Read up on why.

I saw the post about flight risk but under these circumstances really?  held for two weeks for a fight on the street...with video evidence?  you don't find that a bit much?  could it be because of his race?  me thinks that is a big possibility.

Well that is the debate over here to - whether he reaches the level of flight risk. Criminologist professor Leif GW Persson does not think that there was sufficient reason. 

But the court bought the prosecutor's argument. And two higher courts that it was appealed to didn't object. 

The guy he was fighting with was from Afghanistan. So you are saying that if it is because of his race -- "brown man from middle east" trumps "black man from the US" in Sweden? 

I don't see how race would be a factor. I would imagine there was pressure to let him go - because if freed he has the right to get cash for the time he's been sitting there and he has lost millions on cancelling the tour.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

pjhawks said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

pjhawks said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

Meltdown99 said:

LMFAO.  The US justice system is a complete joke.  Honestly, how can any American be proud of that system?  Michigan had locked up the FBI's youngest informant ever, White Boy Rick, he was sentenced 30 years for a non-violent drug offence (he was a juvenile when the crime was committed).  Why did he get 30 years...because he was too good as an informant and was bringing down some high profile Detroit elite's and gangs.  And there are more of these stories in the US prison system.

Absolutely. 

In the absence of any non-biased information, I'm going to go with what is generally known about the justice systems of the two countries and assume that this guy is being held in better condition in Sweden than if he had been incarcerated in the US for the same offence. 

If in the US, he'd have been released within a few hours unless he had a previous contempt charge (failure to appear), so I'm pretty sure ASAP's conditions would be better in the US, at home. 

Is this why you have people like that Epstein guy and Manafort being able to bride witnesses and such?

Yes, because you're innocent until proven guilty, you can prepare for your trial out of jail.  If you choose to commit another crime, that's on you.  You don't have to defend an arcane system of locking people up for 2 weeks over such a small offense.  

Small offense? 

He is suspected of " grave assault". He would not be sitting in custody if not the jail time for the crime would be 1 year or more. 

His suspicion level is 3 out of 4 (På sannolika skäl misstänkt = "on probable grounds))


On probable grounds. The suspicion is justified by an objective assessment. It requires something that further binds the person to the crime, such as a witness or technical evidence. Example: A witness has seen that a person has picked up the wallet.

Are you choosing to jump in and be obtuse by choice just to not forfeit your "bald eagles and freedom"?

So you believe it was a small offense (even though the jail time could be 1 year). 
You believe he would only be served one (1) apple in prison.
You believe he was served dirty water?

Funny shit.

I'm choosing to believe in the system of English common law that has been the pinnacle of first world justice in Canada, the US, UK, etc. since the Magna Carta.  I won't defend the execution of the law for every state, jurisdiction, etc., but it seems barbaric to keep someone in jail, without access to privileged attorney conversation, for two weeks.  Outrageous.  

I don't think this is the first or the last time you will jump into a discussion just to find something to shit on Sweden for - without having taking note of what the story is. 

But he has had the rights to privileged attorney conversation. A swedish custody isn't Gauantamony Bay - that is an american invention. 

And if you would have read what I have posted in this thread instead of looking past everything in a search to gotcha me. You would have 1) known that he has had that right and 2) known that he isn't not suspected of a "small offense" 

So let us conclude:

Rule of Law - Sweden beats the US
Human rights - Sweden beats the US

But I guess you won't take in that because of:

I like how everything is a contest for you.  According to reports, he has not been allowed privileged conversations with his attorney or the consulate.  The difference is you are defending this system.  I won't defend the permanent detention of combatants in Gitmo.  

exactly. at no point in my initial post did i try to compare US to Sweden. I just asked if this is truly a fair system.  If being held for two weeks during an investigation is the norm i find that harsh and unfair.  

Not the norm. Read up on why.

I saw the post about flight risk but under these circumstances really?  held for two weeks for a fight on the street...with video evidence?  you don't find that a bit much?  could it be because of his race?  me thinks that is a big possibility.

Well that is the debate over here to - whether he reaches the level of flight risk. Criminologist professor Leif GW Persson does not think that there was sufficient reason. 

But the court bought the prosecutor's argument. And two higher courts that it was appealed to didn't object. 

The guy he was fighting with was from Afghanistan. So you are saying that if it is because of his race -- "brown man from middle east" trumps "black man from the US" in Sweden? 

I don't see how race would be a factor. I would imagine there was pressure to let him go - because if freed he has the right to get cash for the time he's been sitting there and he has lost millions on cancelling the tour.

Wait - so forgetting about comparing to anywhere else - you are ok with this situation?

From what I’ve read this seems to be ridiculous. Who knows the motivation...cause he’s American? Cause he’s black? Cause he is a rapper? Who knows. But it seems really ridiculous.

cincybearcat said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

pjhawks said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

pjhawks said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

oftenreading said:

Meltdown99 said:

LMFAO.  The US justice system is a complete joke.  Honestly, how can any American be proud of that system?  Michigan had locked up the FBI's youngest informant ever, White Boy Rick, he was sentenced 30 years for a non-violent drug offence (he was a juvenile when the crime was committed).  Why did he get 30 years...because he was too good as an informant and was bringing down some high profile Detroit elite's and gangs.  And there are more of these stories in the US prison system.

Absolutely. 

In the absence of any non-biased information, I'm going to go with what is generally known about the justice systems of the two countries and assume that this guy is being held in better condition in Sweden than if he had been incarcerated in the US for the same offence. 

If in the US, he'd have been released within a few hours unless he had a previous contempt charge (failure to appear), so I'm pretty sure ASAP's conditions would be better in the US, at home. 

Is this why you have people like that Epstein guy and Manafort being able to bride witnesses and such?

Yes, because you're innocent until proven guilty, you can prepare for your trial out of jail.  If you choose to commit another crime, that's on you.  You don't have to defend an arcane system of locking people up for 2 weeks over such a small offense.  

Small offense? 

He is suspected of " grave assault". He would not be sitting in custody if not the jail time for the crime would be 1 year or more. 

His suspicion level is 3 out of 4 (På sannolika skäl misstänkt = "on probable grounds))


On probable grounds. The suspicion is justified by an objective assessment. It requires something that further binds the person to the crime, such as a witness or technical evidence. Example: A witness has seen that a person has picked up the wallet.

Are you choosing to jump in and be obtuse by choice just to not forfeit your "bald eagles and freedom"?

So you believe it was a small offense (even though the jail time could be 1 year). 
You believe he would only be served one (1) apple in prison.
You believe he was served dirty water?

Funny shit.

I'm choosing to believe in the system of English common law that has been the pinnacle of first world justice in Canada, the US, UK, etc. since the Magna Carta.  I won't defend the execution of the law for every state, jurisdiction, etc., but it seems barbaric to keep someone in jail, without access to privileged attorney conversation, for two weeks.  Outrageous.  

I don't think this is the first or the last time you will jump into a discussion just to find something to shit on Sweden for - without having taking note of what the story is. 

But he has had the rights to privileged attorney conversation. A swedish custody isn't Gauantamony Bay - that is an american invention. 

And if you would have read what I have posted in this thread instead of looking past everything in a search to gotcha me. You would have 1) known that he has had that right and 2) known that he isn't not suspected of a "small offense" 

So let us conclude:

Rule of Law - Sweden beats the US
Human rights - Sweden beats the US

But I guess you won't take in that because of:

I like how everything is a contest for you.  According to reports, he has not been allowed privileged conversations with his attorney or the consulate.  The difference is you are defending this system.  I won't defend the permanent detention of combatants in Gitmo.  

exactly. at no point in my initial post did i try to compare US to Sweden. I just asked if this is truly a fair system.  If being held for two weeks during an investigation is the norm i find that harsh and unfair.  

Not the norm. Read up on why.

I saw the post about flight risk but under these circumstances really?  held for two weeks for a fight on the street...with video evidence?  you don't find that a bit much?  could it be because of his race?  me thinks that is a big possibility.

Well that is the debate over here to - whether he reaches the level of flight risk. Criminologist professor Leif GW Persson does not think that there was sufficient reason. 

But the court bought the prosecutor's argument. And two higher courts that it was appealed to didn't object. 

The guy he was fighting with was from Afghanistan. So you are saying that if it is because of his race -- "brown man from middle east" trumps "black man from the US" in Sweden? 

I don't see how race would be a factor. I would imagine there was pressure to let him go - because if freed he has the right to get cash for the time he's been sitting there and he has lost millions on cancelling the tour.

Wait - so forgetting about comparing to anywhere else - you are ok with this situation?

From what I’ve read this seems to be ridiculous. Who knows the motivation...cause he’s American? Cause he’s black? Cause he is a rapper? Who knows. But it seems really ridiculous.

The simple motivation is - he is suspected of Assault at this time, a crime serious enough that they have the right to keep him in pre-trial detention if there is a flight risk. Which the court has agreed with the prosecutor about  is a risk.

You can sit and be a layman and argue over if you think he is a flight risk (I don't even know who this dude is), or whatever. But I don't see the problem with the swedish system. Regarding this.

And he is getting proper food and proper water. And can read a Scandinavian Noir novel if he wish.

Remember - Swedes pay 630 euros per day for our inmates. In the US (for example) prisons try to make a 630 euro profit on their inmates. Haha.

So then you are ok with this? You didn’t answer.

and you could help but still try and make a US dig. Nice. 

So in Sweden its ok to hold someone in solitary for 2 weeks for defending yourself? Sounds terrific. There has to be more with this situation. There has to be some more motivation than just because he was accused of assault. Especially since you cannot even locates the supposed “victim”. 

cincybearcat said:

So in Sweden its ok to hold someone in solitary for 2 weeks for defending yourself? Sounds terrific. There has to be more with this situation. There has to be some more motivation than just because he was accused of assault. Especially since you cannot even locates the supposed “victim”. 

I feel like your are building one heck of a narrative from not really knowing much about the situation (Which we all have a lack of knowledge about).

He is - on probably grounds (the highest level of suspicion before you are charge) suspected of assault - ofc he can be hold in pre-trial detention if there is a reason for it and he reaches the threshold for it. And three levels of courts in Sweden seem to find it is. 

And regarding courts and all - everyone here should chill out. The nordic countries - we got this:



But obviously things could go faster and whatever. But I guess it being vaccination times maybe slows things down a bit. Or there is more to investigate in this matter than we or fakenews-TMZ know.

cincybearcat said:

So in Sweden its ok to hold someone in solitary for 2 weeks for defending yourself? Sounds terrific. There has to be more with this situation. There has to be some more motivation than just because he was accused of assault. Especially since you cannot even locates the supposed “victim”. 

#BoycottSweden
Seriously, though, if we stopped trading with Sweden, they would pretty much go bankrupt.  Sweden’s economy depends on US trade...
I would bet that the USA could sustain without Swedish trade, though.