Are you in favor of giving illegal immigrants free health care?

CM189191 said:

mrussel1 said:

CM189191 said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Meltdown99 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

California to Give Health Coverage to Some Undocumented Immigrants. Here’s How It Will Be Funded
https://fortune.com/2019/07/10/california-health-coverage-undocumented/

Must suck to pay taxes in California and not get state-funded healthcare...

I'm in favor of giving anyone critical care whether they are documented or not but against the idea of giving free non-critical care to undocumented immigrants.  But here's the thing- California is the "breadbasket of the world"-- the fifth largest supplier of food in the world-- and no one besides undocumented workers are willing to do that kind of work for the low wages big agribusiness pays.  I did it for a summer.  It's a bitch!  Know anyone who does this kind of work, especially any 20 something whites?  Tell me! 

So when people who rely on this state's food production complain about undocumented workers, they/ we need to ask ourselves, "Well, OK, is these people are not well, who will do the work?"

It's a damn complex issue.

Who wanted to do the work slaves did when the plantations couldn't use them anymore for free labour?

Must have been taken a hit before reconstruction the business for paid labour I would guess?

You need to reconstruct the second sentence.  What does that mean?

Those businesses, must have taken a hit before reconstructing their business model to work with paid labour I would guess?

Maybe slavery is still present in the US in a roundabout way... The US does love cheap labour.  

Are what you saying, that the US is subsidizing their agriculture sector by being okey with giving wages people can not live on, not giving any legal right to vacation, not maternal leave and such?

Are you saying they are competing by shitting on the working people?

There is no federal farming force, so no.  

Convicts are returning to farming – anti-immigrant policies are the reason
....would like to have a word...

That's a more complicated argument.  Prisoners have been doing work forever, whether it's license plates, clean up crews, road work, etc.  Take out the argument about whether the convictions are legitimate, it's certainly true that a goodly number of prisoners actually committed a real crime.  And it costs all of us money to incarcerate them.  So I don't know that I'm uncomfortable with prisoners being leased for labor that meets all normal federal standards, including min wage laws.  I would hope that money goes into the prisoner system to pay for the incarceration.  

If they are going to do the work, they should get the payday upon release to help them get back on their feet.

You don't see how this might be abused by a for-profit prison system and a large agriculture lobby?

We are basically replacing slave labor with prison labor.  

I agree with that, to a certain extent.  I don't think it should be the full amount, again because we have to pay taxes to incarcerate people.  So I don't mind a fund or something that is provided upon release, but I would want the prisoner to pay for some level of incarceration.  As I said earlier, I also think that the wage must be prevailing market rates, not some dirt cheap number that cannibalizes the free population jobs.  

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

Prisoners are there to serve time, not to be slaves to the state...and considering the amount of people locked up doing excessive time for non-violent crimes...fuck that shit...

Let's not forget the US loves private prisons...the only country that wants to profit off crime, and that's the government...LMFAO.

Totally agree. That private prisons are even legal in the US shocked the hell out of me. It's a fucking abomination.

I agree about the private prison aspect as well.

Are you still anti-work release programs if it is voluntary and the prisoners get to keep the income, or at least a portion of it?

I never said I was anti-work release. I am in favour of any program that decreases the rates of recidivism, that prepares prisoners to live in the real world after their release, and that doesn't turn people into slaves. As long as public safety is a high priority at the same time, I would say that I'm very pro-work release program.

Okay, misunderstood your "totally agree" comment. 

Meltdown99 said:

and there is a whole host of things you and I both pay for that we’d rather not...

And that is how it is to be part of a family! Sometimes you help your sister with her schoolwork. Sometimes you get help getting your Pearl Jam poster up. 

Folding your arms being all "I don't wanna pay for this or that because it doesn't directly affect me" is a shit attitude - you pay to help out the Society as a whole, that is part of being in a society.

But it still stings when you see how much every prisoner per day costs. It's obscene amounts. At least in Sweden. In Sweden an inmate costs 620 euros per day(!) - in Bulgaria it is 3 euros. The European average is 100 euros. 

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Meltdown99 said:

and there is a whole host of things you and I both pay for that we’d rather not...

And that is how it is to be part of a family! Sometimes you help your sister with her schoolwork. Sometimes you get help getting your Pearl Jam poster up. 

Folding your arms being all "I don't wanna pay for this or that because it doesn't directly affect me" is a shit attitude - you pay to help out the Society as a whole, that is part of being in a society.

But it still stings when you see how much every prisoner per day costs. It's obscene amounts. At least in Sweden. In Sweden an inmate costs 620 euros per day(!) - in Bulgaria it is 3 euros. The European average is 100 euros. 

In Canada it is 115 000/year to house a federal inmate...

I get that prison is expensive...society would be better served getting them useful skills...not farm labour or cleaning ditches.  

And yes that’s the concept behind universal health care ... spread the cost out amongst everyone.  I would never want the US system of insurance companies...insurance companies are crooked and I wake up everyday that I am not in the despicable insurance industry...

Most prisons offer high school GED and other education programs to prepare them for release.  I don't think this is in conflict to that.  But generating some income, with part of it offsetting the prison cost seems fair to me.  

I don't agree that insurance and prison are analogies for shared costs.  I have never run up a prison bill in my life, but I have for medical, like everyone else.  

The universal healthcare was just an analogy, saying it is better to spread the cost of healthcare amongst all.  That was directed more towards SC.

At the end whatever programs minimize repeat offending I am all for.

I think we can all agree on that.  

Finally you agree that universal health care is a better system.

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Meltdown99 said:

and there is a whole host of things you and I both pay for that we’d rather not...

And that is how it is to be part of a family! Sometimes you help your sister with her schoolwork. Sometimes you get help getting your Pearl Jam poster up. 

Folding your arms being all "I don't wanna pay for this or that because it doesn't directly affect me" is a shit attitude - you pay to help out the Society as a whole, that is part of being in a society.

But it still stings when you see how much every prisoner per day costs. It's obscene amounts. At least in Sweden. In Sweden an inmate costs 620 euros per day(!) - in Bulgaria it is 3 euros. The European average is 100 euros. 

In Canada it is 115 000/year to house a federal inmate...

I get that prison is expensive...society would be better served getting them useful skills...not farm labour or cleaning ditches.  

And yes that’s the concept behind universal health care ... spread the cost out amongst everyone.  I would never want the US system of insurance companies...insurance companies are crooked and I wake up everyday that I am not in the despicable insurance industry...

Most prisons offer high school GED and other education programs to prepare them for release.  I don't think this is in conflict to that.  But generating some income, with part of it offsetting the prison cost seems fair to me.  

I don't agree that insurance and prison are analogies for shared costs.  I have never run up a prison bill in my life, but I have for medical, like everyone else.  

The universal healthcare was just an analogy, saying it is better to spread the cost of healthcare amongst all.  That was directed more towards SC.

At the end whatever programs minimize repeat offending I am all for.

I think we can all agree on that.  

Finally you agree that universal health care is a better system.

Reading is fundamental. 

yes.

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

mrussel1 said:

CM189191 said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Meltdown99 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

California to Give Health Coverage to Some Undocumented Immigrants. Here’s How It Will Be Funded
https://fortune.com/2019/07/10/california-health-coverage-undocumented/

Must suck to pay taxes in California and not get state-funded healthcare...

I'm in favor of giving anyone critical care whether they are documented or not but against the idea of giving free non-critical care to undocumented immigrants.  But here's the thing- California is the "breadbasket of the world"-- the fifth largest supplier of food in the world-- and no one besides undocumented workers are willing to do that kind of work for the low wages big agribusiness pays.  I did it for a summer.  It's a bitch!  Know anyone who does this kind of work, especially any 20 something whites?  Tell me! 

So when people who rely on this state's food production complain about undocumented workers, they/ we need to ask ourselves, "Well, OK, is these people are not well, who will do the work?"

It's a damn complex issue.

Who wanted to do the work slaves did when the plantations couldn't use them anymore for free labour?

Must have been taken a hit before reconstruction the business for paid labour I would guess?

You need to reconstruct the second sentence.  What does that mean?

Those businesses, must have taken a hit before reconstructing their business model to work with paid labour I would guess?

Maybe slavery is still present in the US in a roundabout way... The US does love cheap labour.  

Are what you saying, that the US is subsidizing their agriculture sector by being okey with giving wages people can not live on, not giving any legal right to vacation, not maternal leave and such?

Are you saying they are competing by shitting on the working people?

There is no federal farming force, so no.  

Convicts are returning to farming – anti-immigrant policies are the reason
....would like to have a word...

That's a more complicated argument.  Prisoners have been doing work forever, whether it's license plates, clean up crews, road work, etc.  Take out the argument about whether the convictions are legitimate, it's certainly true that a goodly number of prisoners actually committed a real crime.  And it costs all of us money to incarcerate them.  So I don't know that I'm uncomfortable with prisoners being leased for labor that meets all normal federal standards, including min wage laws.  I would hope that money goes into the prisoner system to pay for the incarceration.  

Like it says toward the end of the article, in theory there are sound reasons for employing inmates; many get where they got because they don't have any useful job skills or any ties to legitimate employment, but the devil is in the details, as always. If black prisoners are getting less desirable jobs than white prisoners, and if a big chunk of prisoners is being exposed to dangers not acceptable to the average worker, then it's just yet another avenue for discrimination. It's not clear to me if the judicial/prison system is fixable to the point where it doesn't do more harm than good. 

I don't know if black prisoners are getting less desirable jobs or not (would be worth knowing though).  But speaking of, I saw a Cal Fire truck today at Coloma State Park along The America River.  Their armored car looking bus thing pulled into the picnic area parking lot where we were sitting.  It looked like they were there for a break- probably for a good 1/2 hour or more.  The majority of the prisoners were black.  No shackles or restraints of any kind.  They just hung out, some talking to the crew chief, some going down to the river to skip stones.  I thought it was cool. 

But what I want to know is, why is the black prisoner population the higher percentage in prison when on the outside, they are in the minority?  That is sincerely fucked up and it's because of something very wrong with our society that causes this discrepancy.  When I saw those guys hanging by the river, I felt like they were getting little crumbs of justice- which was cool, better than nothing- but not good enough. 

The article in the link said that studies have shown that black prisoners get less desirable work placements than white prisoners, but no further details were given. There are so many potential factors here that could be at play that it's hard to comment without knowing the details of the studies, but it is clear that black Americans get shafted in many, many ways by the "justice" system.