Are you in favor of giving illegal immigrants free health care?

josevolution

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

Who makes money with empty camps ? 

PJ_Soul

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

mrussel1

jeffbr said:

mrussel1 said:

catefrances said:

ok so if i didnt state it plainly enough....
YES i am in favour of any govt giving 'illegal' immigrants free health care case the alternative is you just let them get sick and die. not ok. is that what youd want if you found yourself in their position? yeah, didnt think so. 

By federal law, every hospital is required to provide emergency services to any person that comes to the door.  So this isn't even a debate issue.  However, the implication of "insurance" includes non-emergency care.  If an immigrant tears their medial meniscus and would like to have that repaired, should that be free for the undocumented immigrant?  Nope, not in my mind.  Mine isn't free.  

This. I often deny myself health care (I have health care coverage) because to receive it has the risk of putting me into a terrible financial situation. So the answer to the debate moderator's question is - hell no! I am not in favor of granting to illegal immigrants rights and privileges that I, as a citizen, don't have access to. I do, however, believe that health care should be a universal right, and is more basic than providing subsided or free educations.  One can't pursue happiness without health. One can't take advantage of any of their constitutionally protected rights without health. It is one of our most fundamental requirements. I don't want to deny anyone health care, but I do not think illegal immigrants are any more deserving of that health care than legal residents who have paid into the system their entire lives. 

Yep.  Let's get our healthcare in order, where everyone has available, affordable access.  Then we can debate undocumented immigrant free healthcare.  

Ledbetterman10

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

Fair enough but when you talk about them knowing dangers and implications of trying to cross into the U.S., shouldn't one of the implications they should be aware of is that they're not welcomed by Trump? In fact, Trump has made it clear he's very much a adversary of both illegal immigrants (I'm with him on that) and people seeking asylum (I'm not with him on that). But even though I'm not with him on his disdain for asylum-seekers/migrants, that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is. For now anyway. Aren't there any places in Mexico, Central America, or even South America to seek asylum? I ask that because I honestly don't know. If there are, it seems irrational for migrants to risk so much making the trip to the U.S. border only to be greeted by border-patrol agents acting on the orders of a president that hates them. 

PJ_Soul

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

Fair enough but when you talk about them knowing dangers and implications of trying to cross into the U.S., shouldn't one of the implications they should be aware of is that they're not welcomed by Trump? In fact, Trump has made it clear he's very much a adversary of both illegal immigrants (I'm with him on that) and people seeking asylum (I'm not with him on that). But even though I'm not with him on his disdain for asylum-seekers/migrants, that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is. For now anyway. Aren't there any places in Mexico, Central America, or even South America to seek asylum? I ask that because I honestly don't know. If there are, it seems irrational for migrants to risk so much making the trip to the U.S. border only to be greeted by border-patrol agents acting on the orders of a president that hates them. 

Yes, they are aware of that, and try anyway. So what does that tell you? No, not that they are irrational. That what they're trying to escape is worse in the long run, when compared to whatever may come with an attempt to enter the US. And that is why they way they are being treated by America is particularly disgusting.

mrussel1

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

Fair enough but when you talk about them knowing dangers and implications of trying to cross into the U.S., shouldn't one of the implications they should be aware of is that they're not welcomed by Trump? In fact, Trump has made it clear he's very much a adversary of both illegal immigrants (I'm with him on that) and people seeking asylum (I'm not with him on that). But even though I'm not with him on his disdain for asylum-seekers/migrants, that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is. For now anyway. Aren't there any places in Mexico, Central America, or even South America to seek asylum? I ask that because I honestly don't know. If there are, it seems irrational for migrants to risk so much making the trip to the U.S. border only to be greeted by border-patrol agents acting on the orders of a president that hates them. 

Yes, they are aware of that, and try anyway. So what does that tell you?? That what they're trying to escape is worse in the long run, when compared to whatever may come with an attempt to enter the US. And that is why they way they are being treated by America is particularly disgusting.

A better way to say it is, the current administration, unless your intent is to indict all of us Americans for what Trump is doing.  

PJ_Soul

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

Fair enough but when you talk about them knowing dangers and implications of trying to cross into the U.S., shouldn't one of the implications they should be aware of is that they're not welcomed by Trump? In fact, Trump has made it clear he's very much a adversary of both illegal immigrants (I'm with him on that) and people seeking asylum (I'm not with him on that). But even though I'm not with him on his disdain for asylum-seekers/migrants, that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is. For now anyway. Aren't there any places in Mexico, Central America, or even South America to seek asylum? I ask that because I honestly don't know. If there are, it seems irrational for migrants to risk so much making the trip to the U.S. border only to be greeted by border-patrol agents acting on the orders of a president that hates them. 

Yes, they are aware of that, and try anyway. So what does that tell you?? That what they're trying to escape is worse in the long run, when compared to whatever may come with an attempt to enter the US. And that is why they way they are being treated by America is particularly disgusting.

A better way to say it is, the current administration, unless your intent is to indict all of us Americans for what Trump is doing.  

You knew what I meant of course, but okay.

I think it must be difficult for most Americans to understand that risking death to get away from a life with no future and constant harassment from gangs and police, and a lack of food and security and sanitation, etc, is not irrational at all. The risk of death or other hardships becomes completely worth it, just for the chance at something better. That is where these people are coming from. IMO, they deserve nothing but empathy and dignity. Unfortunately for us all, the current admin has neither.

Ledbetterman10

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

Fair enough but when you talk about them knowing dangers and implications of trying to cross into the U.S., shouldn't one of the implications they should be aware of is that they're not welcomed by Trump? In fact, Trump has made it clear he's very much a adversary of both illegal immigrants (I'm with him on that) and people seeking asylum (I'm not with him on that). But even though I'm not with him on his disdain for asylum-seekers/migrants, that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is. For now anyway. Aren't there any places in Mexico, Central America, or even South America to seek asylum? I ask that because I honestly don't know. If there are, it seems irrational for migrants to risk so much making the trip to the U.S. border only to be greeted by border-patrol agents acting on the orders of a president that hates them. 

Yes, they are aware of that, and try anyway. So what does that tell you? No, not that they are irrational. That what they're trying to escape is worse in the long run, when compared to whatever may come with an attempt to enter the US. And that is why they way they are being treated by America is particularly disgusting.

So there's not a single place in all of South or Central America where these people can be safe? 

mcgruff10

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

Fair enough but when you talk about them knowing dangers and implications of trying to cross into the U.S., shouldn't one of the implications they should be aware of is that they're not welcomed by Trump? In fact, Trump has made it clear he's very much a adversary of both illegal immigrants (I'm with him on that) and people seeking asylum (I'm not with him on that). But even though I'm not with him on his disdain for asylum-seekers/migrants, that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is. For now anyway. Aren't there any places in Mexico, Central America, or even South America to seek asylum? I ask that because I honestly don't know. If there are, it seems irrational for migrants to risk so much making the trip to the U.S. border only to be greeted by border-patrol agents acting on the orders of a president that hates them. 

Yes, they are aware of that, and try anyway. So what does that tell you? No, not that they are irrational. That what they're trying to escape is worse in the long run, when compared to whatever may come with an attempt to enter the US. And that is why they way they are being treated by America is particularly disgusting.

So there's not a single place in all of South or Central America where these people can be safe? 

How about panama? Argentina perhaps?  Chile?  Brazil?

mrussel1

PJ_Soul said:

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

Fair enough but when you talk about them knowing dangers and implications of trying to cross into the U.S., shouldn't one of the implications they should be aware of is that they're not welcomed by Trump? In fact, Trump has made it clear he's very much a adversary of both illegal immigrants (I'm with him on that) and people seeking asylum (I'm not with him on that). But even though I'm not with him on his disdain for asylum-seekers/migrants, that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is. For now anyway. Aren't there any places in Mexico, Central America, or even South America to seek asylum? I ask that because I honestly don't know. If there are, it seems irrational for migrants to risk so much making the trip to the U.S. border only to be greeted by border-patrol agents acting on the orders of a president that hates them. 

Yes, they are aware of that, and try anyway. So what does that tell you?? That what they're trying to escape is worse in the long run, when compared to whatever may come with an attempt to enter the US. And that is why they way they are being treated by America is particularly disgusting.

A better way to say it is, the current administration, unless your intent is to indict all of us Americans for what Trump is doing.  

You knew what I meant of course, but okay.

I think it must be difficult for most Americans to understand that risking death to get away from a life with no future and constant harassment from gangs and police, and a lack of food and security and sanitation, etc, is not irrational at all. The risk of death or other hardships becomes completely worth it, just for the chance at something better. That is where these people are coming from. IMO, they deserve nothing but empathy and dignity. Unfortunately for us all, the current admin has neither.

Two things..  one I do think that distinction needs to be drawn.  On this board in particular, there are people who make sweeping judgments against America, failing to distinguish between this administration and ordinary people who live their lives, and those of us that are outraged by the admin's lack of morals.   
And you might be right about not understanding what it means to risk their lives.  I don't blame them one bit for crossing the boarder.  I would do it too to be perfectly honest.  It's a better chance than what they had.  I've shared on this board that my father and his family escaped the Ukraine during Holodomor.  His whole family that stayed, perished as far as we know.  So I think there are plenty of Americans who do understand and empathize with the plight.  The President, a child of privilege, does not.  

PJ_Soul

mcgruff10 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

One must think about how they feel about going back to where they came from. Obviously they knew the implications of trying to cross into the USA, and the sacrifices they made to reach the US border are like nothing most of us can really imagine, but they did it anyhow. It seems to me that they will never give up trying to escape what they're running from, so "self-deportation" likely isn't a choice that seems viable to most of them. They are likely suffering in these camps just hoping and hoping that something better is ahead of them (and that they don't die in the camps before something better comes along).

Fair enough but when you talk about them knowing dangers and implications of trying to cross into the U.S., shouldn't one of the implications they should be aware of is that they're not welcomed by Trump? In fact, Trump has made it clear he's very much a adversary of both illegal immigrants (I'm with him on that) and people seeking asylum (I'm not with him on that). But even though I'm not with him on his disdain for asylum-seekers/migrants, that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is. For now anyway. Aren't there any places in Mexico, Central America, or even South America to seek asylum? I ask that because I honestly don't know. If there are, it seems irrational for migrants to risk so much making the trip to the U.S. border only to be greeted by border-patrol agents acting on the orders of a president that hates them. 

Yes, they are aware of that, and try anyway. So what does that tell you? No, not that they are irrational. That what they're trying to escape is worse in the long run, when compared to whatever may come with an attempt to enter the US. And that is why they way they are being treated by America is particularly disgusting.

So there's not a single place in all of South or Central America where these people can be safe? 

How about panama? Argentina perhaps?  Chile?  Brazil?

They are trying to find better lives, not comparable ones.

otter

Health care is different than health insurance. 

Meltdown99

California to Give Health Coverage to Some Undocumented Immigrants. Here’s How It Will Be Funded
https://fortune.com/2019/07/10/california-health-coverage-undocumented/

Must suck to pay taxes in California and not get state-funded healthcare...

brianlux

Meltdown99 said:

California to Give Health Coverage to Some Undocumented Immigrants. Here’s How It Will Be Funded
https://fortune.com/2019/07/10/california-health-coverage-undocumented/

Must suck to pay taxes in California and not get state-funded healthcare...

I'm in favor of giving anyone critical care whether they are documented or not but against the idea of giving free non-critical care to undocumented immigrants.  But here's the thing- California is the "breadbasket of the world"-- the fifth largest supplier of food in the world-- and no one besides undocumented workers are willing to do that kind of work for the low wages big agribusiness pays.  I did it for a summer.  It's a bitch!  Know anyone who does this kind of work, especially any 20 something whites?  Tell me! 

So when people who rely on this state's food production complain about undocumented workers, they/ we need to ask ourselves, "Well, OK, is these people are not well, who will do the work?"

It's a damn complex issue.

Meltdown99

We have a robust agricultural sector that brings migrants...except our farmers do it legally...I'm sure there are some undocumented workers here...but unlike California, here in Ontario it is frowned upon...

But I avoid food from California ... the berries that are sold here from California suck... but we in Ontario feed ourselves...

brianlux

Meltdown99 said:

We have a robust agricultural sector that brings migrants...except our farmers do it legally...I'm sure there are some undocumented workers here...but unlike California, here in Ontario it is frowned upon...

But I avoid food from California ... the berries that are sold here from California suck... but we in Ontario feed ourselves...

Canada doesn't come close to being a major world food producer.  The top five countries that produce food are China, India, The United States, Brazil, and California.  But this is all besides the point I was making.

mrussel1

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

California to Give Health Coverage to Some Undocumented Immigrants. Here’s How It Will Be Funded
https://fortune.com/2019/07/10/california-health-coverage-undocumented/

Must suck to pay taxes in California and not get state-funded healthcare...

I'm in favor of giving anyone critical care whether they are documented or not but against the idea of giving free non-critical care to undocumented immigrants.  But here's the thing- California is the "breadbasket of the world"-- the fifth largest supplier of food in the world-- and no one besides undocumented workers are willing to do that kind of work for the low wages big agribusiness pays.  I did it for a summer.  It's a bitch!  Know anyone who does this kind of work, especially any 20 something whites?  Tell me! 

So when people who rely on this state's food production complain about undocumented workers, they/ we need to ask ourselves, "Well, OK, is these people are not well, who will do the work?"

It's a damn complex issue.

Yeah, I always wonder how many people know someone that lost their job to an illegal immigrant.  The answer is always 'no one'.  Natural born citizens simply don't/won't do certain jobs.  That's a damn fact.  

Meltdown99

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

We have a robust agricultural sector that brings migrants...except our farmers do it legally...I'm sure there are some undocumented workers here...but unlike California, here in Ontario it is frowned upon...

But I avoid food from California ... the berries that are sold here from California suck... but we in Ontario feed ourselves...

Canada doesn't come close to being a major world food producer.  The top five countries that produce food are China, India, The United States, Brazil, and California.  But this is all besides the point I was making.

We are a country of 35 million. I never said we were a top food producer.  I said we feed ourselves and for the most part, our farmers bring in workers legally...pretty easy to understand.  We do not need to be top 5 to feed ourselves...what fucking nonsense is that.  

mrussel1

Meltdown99 said:

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

We have a robust agricultural sector that brings migrants...except our farmers do it legally...I'm sure there are some undocumented workers here...but unlike California, here in Ontario it is frowned upon...

But I avoid food from California ... the berries that are sold here from California suck... but we in Ontario feed ourselves...

Canada doesn't come close to being a major world food producer.  The top five countries that produce food are China, India, The United States, Brazil, and California.  But this is all besides the point I was making.

We are a country of 35 million. I never said we were a top food producer.  I said we feed ourselves and for the most part, our farmers bring in workers legally...pretty easy to understand.  We do not need to be top 5 to feed ourselves...what fucking nonsense is that.  

Enough girls! 

Spiritual_Chaos

brianlux said:

Meltdown99 said:

California to Give Health Coverage to Some Undocumented Immigrants. Here’s How It Will Be Funded
https://fortune.com/2019/07/10/california-health-coverage-undocumented/

Must suck to pay taxes in California and not get state-funded healthcare...

I'm in favor of giving anyone critical care whether they are documented or not but against the idea of giving free non-critical care to undocumented immigrants.  But here's the thing- California is the "breadbasket of the world"-- the fifth largest supplier of food in the world-- and no one besides undocumented workers are willing to do that kind of work for the low wages big agribusiness pays.  I did it for a summer.  It's a bitch!  Know anyone who does this kind of work, especially any 20 something whites?  Tell me! 

So when people who rely on this state's food production complain about undocumented workers, they/ we need to ask ourselves, "Well, OK, is these people are not well, who will do the work?"

It's a damn complex issue.

Who wanted to do the work slaves did when the plantations couldn't use them anymore for free labour?

Must have been taken a hit before reconstruction the business for paid labour I would guess?