Are you in favor of giving illegal immigrants free health care?

benjs

brianlux said:

pjhawks said:

i didn't vote because it's a loaded question.  I think it depends on the situation.  you sure as shit can deny care in an emergency.  should they get free check ups and routine care though? of course not.  it's not a binary yes or no answer.

I took what they said at face value:  "Health care" .  They didn't say "emergency care" which is a subset of health care.  The statement was simply said "Health care", and up went the hands.  If these people cannot discern a statement properly, I don't want them as my president (although, of course, I would take any of them over the current POTUS).  If they don't show a little more intelligence and critical thinking, they are all going to lose to someone who already has proven he is not very intelligent or critical in his thinking and managed to win anyway.  His boldness and strange charisma have A LOT of the people won over all ready.   We may end up in deep kaka.

The latest season of Malcolm Gladwell's podcast (Revisionist History) has started by talking about two different situations that reward fast thought vs. slow thought - the LSATs as an example where society determines that we need to reward fast complex thought, and chess (the traditional game, not the speed racing varieties) where slow complex thought is rewarded.

In this case, I think it's ridiculous (but not all that surprising) that we assign merit to a candidate based on their ability to know the right thing to say or do without a moment's hesitation to, say, plan, for example. Aren't we just asking for more impulsive behaviours out of people in significant roles when we signal 'a great answer to health care in 60 seconds' as a positive?

brianlux

benjs said:

brianlux said:

pjhawks said:

i didn't vote because it's a loaded question.  I think it depends on the situation.  you sure as shit can deny care in an emergency.  should they get free check ups and routine care though? of course not.  it's not a binary yes or no answer.

I took what they said at face value:  "Health care" .  They didn't say "emergency care" which is a subset of health care.  The statement was simply said "Health care", and up went the hands.  If these people cannot discern a statement properly, I don't want them as my president (although, of course, I would take any of them over the current POTUS).  If they don't show a little more intelligence and critical thinking, they are all going to lose to someone who already has proven he is not very intelligent or critical in his thinking and managed to win anyway.  His boldness and strange charisma have A LOT of the people won over all ready.   We may end up in deep kaka.

The latest season of Malcolm Gladwell's podcast (Revisionist History) has started by talking about two different situations that reward fast thought vs. slow thought - the LSATs as an example where society determines that we need to reward fast complex thought, and chess (the traditional game, not the speed racing varieties) where slow complex thought is rewarded.

In this case, I think it's ridiculous (but not all that surprising) that we assign merit to a candidate based on their ability to know the right thing to say or do without a moment's hesitation to, say, plan, for example. Aren't we just asking for more impulsive behaviours out of people in significant roles when we signal 'a great answer to health care in 60 seconds' as a positive?

Ah!  This is great!  I was just reading my current read last night- Finding Abbey, by Sean Prentiss, where he talks about being a writer and therefore is a slow, careful thinker, basically implying that this is not so common as once was.

Excellent observation, Ben!

catefrances

wndowpayne said:

I am an American born citizen and I dont get free health care..Im looking for the Hell no button..

well that is fucked beyond all measure. as someone who lives in a country with a socialised health system(for which i am absolutely,truly and endlessly thankful for), i believe it is a governments responsibility to look after the welfare of its people. i do not think that elective medicine should be covered by socialised healthcare, but i absolutely believe that essential healthcare should be. to not be able to visit a healthcare professional simply because you can no afford it is obscene. imo if you dont have the health of your citizens as  a priority, then you have nothing. it shows that you dont value all your citizens and youve decided the health of those citizens is simply expendable. to those governments i say fuck you. and to those countries who cant extend the simple courtesy to those in need, which immigrants are, then to you i say fuck you too. your priorities are out of whack and youve missed the whole point of being human. 

josevolution

I’m for giving them their decency back , to be treated like humans to let an organized process give them a place to live in peace not fear ! 

Ledbetterman10

If only there was an organized process for people from other countries to become American citizens. 

mrussel1

catefrances said:

wndowpayne said:

I am an American born citizen and I dont get free health care..Im looking for the Hell no button..

well that is fucked beyond all measure. as someone who lives in a country with a socialised health system(for which i am absolutely,truly and endlessly thankful for), i believe it is a governments responsibility to look after the welfare of its people. i do not think that elective medicine should be covered by socialised healthcare, but i absolutely believe that essential healthcare should be. to not be able to visit a healthcare professional simply because you can no afford it is obscene. imo if you dont have the health of your citizens as  a priority, then you have nothing. it shows that you dont value all your citizens and youve decided the health of those citizens is simply expendable. to those governments i say fuck you. and to those countries who cant extend the simple courtesy to those in need, which immigrants are, then to you i say fuck you too. your priorities are out of whack and youve missed the whole point of being human. 

The question wasn't "should everyone in America have free healthcare, including immigrants".  It was should illegal immigrants receive free healthcare.  US Citizens do not receive free healthcare, so why would the first to receive that benefit be those that don't pay taxes?  That doesn't make any sense.  

catefrances

mrussel1 said:

catefrances said:

wndowpayne said:

I am an American born citizen and I dont get free health care..Im looking for the Hell no button..

well that is fucked beyond all measure. as someone who lives in a country with a socialised health system(for which i am absolutely,truly and endlessly thankful for), i believe it is a governments responsibility to look after the welfare of its people. i do not think that elective medicine should be covered by socialised healthcare, but i absolutely believe that essential healthcare should be. to not be able to visit a healthcare professional simply because you can no afford it is obscene. imo if you dont have the health of your citizens as  a priority, then you have nothing. it shows that you dont value all your citizens and youve decided the health of those citizens is simply expendable. to those governments i say fuck you. and to those countries who cant extend the simple courtesy to those in need, which immigrants are, then to you i say fuck you too. your priorities are out of whack and youve missed the whole point of being human. 

The question wasn't "should everyone in America have free healthcare, including immigrants".  It was should illegal immigrants receive free healthcare.  US Citizens do not receive free healthcare, so why would the first to receive that benefit be those that don't pay taxes?  That doesn't make any sense.  

thats my point. US citizens SHOULD receive free healthcare... and by extention so should anyone within its borders. why should any human under the auspices of the US govt be denied access to the healthcare? thats what doesnt make sense. and i dont care about the parameters of the question, ive chosen to extend them  due to common decency  and love of my fellow Man. considering the amount  of money that is spent on 'defending' our nations, the least we can do is keep the people healthy, dont you think?  

mrussel1

catefrances said:

mrussel1 said:

catefrances said:

wndowpayne said:

I am an American born citizen and I dont get free health care..Im looking for the Hell no button..

well that is fucked beyond all measure. as someone who lives in a country with a socialised health system(for which i am absolutely,truly and endlessly thankful for), i believe it is a governments responsibility to look after the welfare of its people. i do not think that elective medicine should be covered by socialised healthcare, but i absolutely believe that essential healthcare should be. to not be able to visit a healthcare professional simply because you can no afford it is obscene. imo if you dont have the health of your citizens as  a priority, then you have nothing. it shows that you dont value all your citizens and youve decided the health of those citizens is simply expendable. to those governments i say fuck you. and to those countries who cant extend the simple courtesy to those in need, which immigrants are, then to you i say fuck you too. your priorities are out of whack and youve missed the whole point of being human. 

The question wasn't "should everyone in America have free healthcare, including immigrants".  It was should illegal immigrants receive free healthcare.  US Citizens do not receive free healthcare, so why would the first to receive that benefit be those that don't pay taxes?  That doesn't make any sense.  

thats my point. US citizens SHOULD receive free healthcare... and by extention so should anyone within its borders. why should any human under the auspices of the US govt be denied access to the healthcare? thats what doesnt make sense. and i dont care about the parameters of the question, ive chosen to extend them  due to common decency  and love of my fellow Man. considering the amount  of money that is spent on 'defending' our nations, the least we can do is keep the people healthy, dont you think?  

And that's a different question than the one posed by the moderator at the debate, which was the genesis of Brian's poll.  So it's odd that you went on somewhat of a profanity laced tirade based on a question that wasn't asked. 
 
And there's no such thing as free health care.  As an economist would say "TNSTAAFL".  

Meltdown99

catefrances said:

mrussel1 said:

catefrances said:

wndowpayne said:

I am an American born citizen and I dont get free health care..Im looking for the Hell no button..

well that is fucked beyond all measure. as someone who lives in a country with a socialised health system(for which i am absolutely,truly and endlessly thankful for), i believe it is a governments responsibility to look after the welfare of its people. i do not think that elective medicine should be covered by socialised healthcare, but i absolutely believe that essential healthcare should be. to not be able to visit a healthcare professional simply because you can no afford it is obscene. imo if you dont have the health of your citizens as  a priority, then you have nothing. it shows that you dont value all your citizens and youve decided the health of those citizens is simply expendable. to those governments i say fuck you. and to those countries who cant extend the simple courtesy to those in need, which immigrants are, then to you i say fuck you too. your priorities are out of whack and youve missed the whole point of being human. 

The question wasn't "should everyone in America have free healthcare, including immigrants".  It was should illegal immigrants receive free healthcare.  US Citizens do not receive free healthcare, so why would the first to receive that benefit be those that don't pay taxes?  That doesn't make any sense.  

thats my point. US citizens SHOULD receive free healthcare... and by extention so should anyone within its borders. why should any human under the auspices of the US govt be denied access to the healthcare? thats what doesnt make sense. and i dont care about the parameters of the question, ive chosen to extend them  due to common decency  and love of my fellow Man. considering the amount  of money that is spent on 'defending' our nations, the least we can do is keep the people healthy, dont you think?  

Are you suggesting that as a Canadian and I'm in Detroit for an event and I need medical attention that the US should just pick up my bill...

catefrances

Meltdown99 said:

catefrances said:

mrussel1 said:

catefrances said:

wndowpayne said:

I am an American born citizen and I dont get free health care..Im looking for the Hell no button..

well that is fucked beyond all measure. as someone who lives in a country with a socialised health system(for which i am absolutely,truly and endlessly thankful for), i believe it is a governments responsibility to look after the welfare of its people. i do not think that elective medicine should be covered by socialised healthcare, but i absolutely believe that essential healthcare should be. to not be able to visit a healthcare professional simply because you can no afford it is obscene. imo if you dont have the health of your citizens as  a priority, then you have nothing. it shows that you dont value all your citizens and youve decided the health of those citizens is simply expendable. to those governments i say fuck you. and to those countries who cant extend the simple courtesy to those in need, which immigrants are, then to you i say fuck you too. your priorities are out of whack and youve missed the whole point of being human. 

The question wasn't "should everyone in America have free healthcare, including immigrants".  It was should illegal immigrants receive free healthcare.  US Citizens do not receive free healthcare, so why would the first to receive that benefit be those that don't pay taxes?  That doesn't make any sense.  

thats my point. US citizens SHOULD receive free healthcare... and by extention so should anyone within its borders. why should any human under the auspices of the US govt be denied access to the healthcare? thats what doesnt make sense. and i dont care about the parameters of the question, ive chosen to extend them  due to common decency  and love of my fellow Man. considering the amount  of money that is spent on 'defending' our nations, the least we can do is keep the people healthy, dont you think?  

Are you suggesting that as a Canadian and I'm in Detroit for an event and I need medical attention that the US should just pick up my bill...

under the auspices of the government... you missed that part. as far as im concerned if the US govt isnt going to  deport said 'illegal' immigrants then they become responsible for them.... and yes that includes health care. 
 as to your question about whether as a canadian the US pick up your bill if you require medical attention then i refer you to the reciprocal health agreements between new zealand and australia and new zealand and the UK:

https://www.health.govt.nz/new-zealand-health-system/eligibility-publicly-funded-health-services/reciprocal-health-agreements

itd be nice if as a canadian your neighbour would look after you medically if need be. 

catefrances

ok so if i didnt state it plainly enough....
YES i am in favour of any govt giving 'illegal' immigrants free health care case the alternative is you just let them get sick and die. not ok. is that what youd want if you found yourself in their position? yeah, didnt think so. 

josevolution

catefrances said:

ok so if i didnt state it plainly enough....
YES i am in favour of any govt giving 'illegal' immigrants free health care case the alternative is you just let them get sick and die. not ok. is that what youd want if you found yourself in their position? yeah, didnt think so. 

Agreed 

Meltdown99

catefrances said:

Meltdown99 said:

catefrances said:

mrussel1 said:

catefrances said:

wndowpayne said:

I am an American born citizen and I dont get free health care..Im looking for the Hell no button..

well that is fucked beyond all measure. as someone who lives in a country with a socialised health system(for which i am absolutely,truly and endlessly thankful for), i believe it is a governments responsibility to look after the welfare of its people. i do not think that elective medicine should be covered by socialised healthcare, but i absolutely believe that essential healthcare should be. to not be able to visit a healthcare professional simply because you can no afford it is obscene. imo if you dont have the health of your citizens as  a priority, then you have nothing. it shows that you dont value all your citizens and youve decided the health of those citizens is simply expendable. to those governments i say fuck you. and to those countries who cant extend the simple courtesy to those in need, which immigrants are, then to you i say fuck you too. your priorities are out of whack and youve missed the whole point of being human. 

The question wasn't "should everyone in America have free healthcare, including immigrants".  It was should illegal immigrants receive free healthcare.  US Citizens do not receive free healthcare, so why would the first to receive that benefit be those that don't pay taxes?  That doesn't make any sense.  

thats my point. US citizens SHOULD receive free healthcare... and by extention so should anyone within its borders. why should any human under the auspices of the US govt be denied access to the healthcare? thats what doesnt make sense. and i dont care about the parameters of the question, ive chosen to extend them  due to common decency  and love of my fellow Man. considering the amount  of money that is spent on 'defending' our nations, the least we can do is keep the people healthy, dont you think?  

Are you suggesting that as a Canadian and I'm in Detroit for an event and I need medical attention that the US should just pick up my bill...

under the auspices of the government... you missed that part. as far as im concerned if the US govt isnt going to  deport said 'illegal' immigrants then they become responsible for them.... and yes that includes health care. 
 as to your question about whether as a canadian the US pick up your bill if you require medical attention then i refer you to the reciprocal health agreements between new zealand and australia and new zealand and the UK:

https://www.health.govt.nz/new-zealand-health-system/eligibility-publicly-funded-health-services/reciprocal-health-agreements

itd be nice if as a canadian your neighbour would look after you medically if need be. 

A similar agreement is not possible.  thousands of Canadians and Americans cross the border daily.  I do not want my tax $$$ paying for people's healthcare in the US...those people can buy travel insurance...

Meltdown99

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

Ledbetterman10

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

mrussel1

catefrances said:

ok so if i didnt state it plainly enough....
YES i am in favour of any govt giving 'illegal' immigrants free health care case the alternative is you just let them get sick and die. not ok. is that what youd want if you found yourself in their position? yeah, didnt think so. 

By federal law, every hospital is required to provide emergency services to any person that comes to the door.  So this isn't even a debate issue.  However, the implication of "insurance" includes non-emergency care.  If an immigrant tears their medial meniscus and would like to have that repaired, should that be free for the undocumented immigrant?  Nope, not in my mind.  Mine isn't free.  

Meltdown99

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

Found this with a quick google search.

More Immigrants Are Giving Up Court Fights and Leaving the U.S.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/05/08/more-detained-immigrants-are-giving-up-court-fights-and-leaving-the-u-s

Pretty sure you can not volunteer to leave a concentration camp...

mrussel1

Meltdown99 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

Found this with a quick google search.

More Immigrants Are Giving Up Court Fights and Leaving the U.S.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/05/08/more-detained-immigrants-are-giving-up-court-fights-and-leaving-the-u-s

Pretty sure you can not volunteer to leave a concentration camp...

Even though I loathe the term you used, the point was funny.  

Meltdown99

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Meltdown99 said:

Can those people in the detentions self deport?  I do not honestly know?  If they can self deport, why do they not?

That's a great question that I don't know the answer to either. On one hand, you'd think that they'd be able to self-deport because most are detained waiting for deportation. So letting them return to their country of origin on their own accord seems like it would save time and resources. On the other hand, if they were able to self-deport, you'd think they'd all do it. Unless some are holding out hope of being admitted granted asylum. I have no clue. 

Found this with a quick google search.

More Immigrants Are Giving Up Court Fights and Leaving the U.S.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/05/08/more-detained-immigrants-are-giving-up-court-fights-and-leaving-the-u-s

Pretty sure you can not volunteer to leave a concentration camp...

Even though I loathe the term you used, the point was funny.  

It's not my term...it is being tossed around as fact.  But if you leave voluntarily and it does not show up on your record as being deported, then that seems like the smart choice?  And they are willingly walking into these detention centres (not literally).  I am also a believer of personal accountability, if you re an adult with children under your care, then maybe showing up to border and crossing is a poor decision...

Maybe they do not know they can self deport...maybe AOC can inform them of that...

jeffbr

mrussel1 said:

catefrances said:

ok so if i didnt state it plainly enough....
YES i am in favour of any govt giving 'illegal' immigrants free health care case the alternative is you just let them get sick and die. not ok. is that what youd want if you found yourself in their position? yeah, didnt think so. 

By federal law, every hospital is required to provide emergency services to any person that comes to the door.  So this isn't even a debate issue.  However, the implication of "insurance" includes non-emergency care.  If an immigrant tears their medial meniscus and would like to have that repaired, should that be free for the undocumented immigrant?  Nope, not in my mind.  Mine isn't free.  

This. I often deny myself health care (I have health care coverage) because to receive it has the risk of putting me into a terrible financial situation. So the answer to the debate moderator's question is - hell no! I am not in favor of granting to illegal immigrants rights and privileges that I, as a citizen, don't have access to. I do, however, believe that health care should be a universal right, and is more basic than providing subsided or free educations.  One can't pursue happiness without health. One can't take advantage of any of their constitutionally protected rights without health. It is one of our most fundamental requirements. I don't want to deny anyone health care, but I do not think illegal immigrants are any more deserving of that health care than legal residents who have paid into the system their entire lives.