mrussel1 said:

njnancy said:

mrussel1 said:

josevolution said:

Meltdown99 said:

I think NK might be softening on westerners being arrested.  They arrested Australian and said he was spying but was released and deported.  But agian...personal responsibility.  You enter that shithole and get arrested...sucks to be you.

Like NK is going to pay if they lose a lawsuit...

You always find faults in the victims, I agree with your point if you enter a dangerous situation it’s on you but he didn’t deserve to die at their hands just like the immigrants that have perished at the border ..

I think the migrant situation is different.  They are trying for a better life.  I will never blame anyone for that.  I don't quite understand why Otto went to NK. If he was trying to be a mission or proselytizing,  there are plenty of places in the world to make a difference. 

He was going to study abroad in Hong Kong. China has Pioneer Groups that visit North Korea essentially at the one International Hotel - he went for a 5 day trip over New Year's (where people essentially drank) on his way to Hong Kong. He was arrested either at the airport or on the plane. He was Jewish, but his parents didn't want to dispute his confession out of fear. He was there to party on his way to study abroad. All the other Americans lived. 

Blaming a 22 year old for dying for ALLEGEDLY stealing a poster is heartless. 

Ok.  I thought he had gone there for mission,  not on a school thing.  A person should consider themselves reasonably secure.  Do you know why he was targeted?

OnWis97 said:

Meltdown99 said:

No blaming anyone for dying.  

But if you do something dumb like going to NK and stealing a poster (something as petty as that) can carry serious repercussions.  Are the laws unjust in NK...of course they are...and if you are taking that risk...if things turn out bad, that was the risk you choose.

No blaming anyone for being raped.

But if you do something like walk around late at night in jeans and a sweater (something as modest as that) can carry serious repercussions.  Are rapists bad...of course they are...and if you are taking that risk...if things turn out bad, that was the risk you choose.

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

OnWis97 said:

Meltdown99 said:

No blaming anyone for dying.  

But if you do something dumb like going to NK and stealing a poster (something as petty as that) can carry serious repercussions.  Are the laws unjust in NK...of course they are...and if you are taking that risk...if things turn out bad, that was the risk you choose.

No blaming anyone for being raped.

But if you do something like walk around late at night in jeans and a sweater (something as modest as that) can carry serious repercussions.  Are rapists bad...of course they are...and if you are taking that risk...if things turn out bad, that was the risk you choose.

That's not necessarily a reasonable comparative.  There are certain things one can do that is unreasonably risky.  Im no longer saying Otto falls into that category since he went with an approved group.  But a person who would intentionally put themselves in an unreasonably dangerous situation would bear some responsibility if things went wrong.  There's a difference between walking in a tight sweater and entering a dictatorship country where the supreme ruler is known to take hostages and execute people on a whim

Otto doesn't fall into that category, he still had a reasonable expectation to come home not in vegetative state.

One guy who I don't consider a victim was that guy who illegally went to that island by India to spread the word of the Lord to the local indigenous population despite everyone telling him he would be killed. That guy commited suicide.

Yes, that's a great example.  Responsibility isn't binary.  

dignin said:

Why not just leave this here...

Billionaire Jeffrey Epstein arrested and accused of sex trafficking minors, sources say

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/06/us/jeffrey-epstein-arrest-sex-trafficking-indictment/index.html

Angry Nancy Pelosi Slams Young House Progressives As Tiny Squad With No Support

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has issued a surprisingly scathing attack on the gutsy crew of progressive freshmen women in the House of Representatives, dismissing them as a tiny squad who have a “public whatever,” but no backing in Congress.

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) shot back on Twitter later saying that the “public whatever” is public sentiment.” She added: “Wielding the power to shift it is how we actually achieve meaningful change in this country.”

Pelosi’s harsh comments followed a quote from a spokesman for Ocasio-Cortez in a Washington Post op ed  Friday that the “greatest threat to mankind is the cowardice of the Democratic Party.” The young squad of Pelosi critics also includes Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.), Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) and Rep. Ayanna Pressley (D-Mass.).

Pelosi attacked the women in an interview with New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd published Saturday as she defended herself against criticism (including in the Huffpost story “What The Hell Is Nancy Pelosi Doing?”) that she’s caving into the Republicans.

She has come under particular attack for her push to pass the Senate Republican bill (instead of the House version) increasing border funds without humanitarian guarantees for detained immigrants, particularly children.

Pelosi insisted that the bill — which the squad of four voted against — was the strongest she could get.

“All these people have their public whatever and their Twitter world,” Pelosi said, referring to the women. “But they didn’t have any following. They’re four people and that’s how many votes they got.”

She blamed the shortcomings of the border bill on Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), whom she described as “authentically terrible.”

“With all due respect, the press likes to make a story that is more about Democrats divided than the fact that Mitch McConnell doesn’t care about the children,’’ she said.

“If the left doesn’t think I’m left enough, so be it,” Pelosi concluded defiantly. “As I say to these people, come to my basement. I have these signs about single-payer from 30 years ago. I understand what they’re saying. But we have a responsibility to get something done, which is different from advocacy. We have to have a solution, not just a Twitter fight.”