The Democratic Candidates

mcgruff10 said:

oftenreading said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

mcgruff10 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

We do appreciate that you aren't critical of the US (and Canada) for saving your country.  That's big of you.  

Well ofc. I am able to be objective. 

That is one of the perks of not being raised in a country with an alarming amount of spoon-feeding of nationalism and singing the national anthem 15-16 times a day. :P 
 
(And for some perspective, the US didn't join the war for over two years before they themselves were attacked)

A lot of people died with the US being neutral for those two years. A shame.

This is pretty dumb.  

The entire conversation is.

So long as he feels compelled to make one statement that he thinks encompasses 300 million people,  I'm going to do the same.  The ignorance is astounding to me and I won't sitand not write back.  We've been through it 5 different times at least. 

Oh, the irony 

Find a statement that I've made, unprovoked by your ass, that is USA#1, rah rah.  You won't find it.  We'll go through this cycle again next time you make a similarly disparaging statement for no reason.  Unfortunately I have to keep going back to WW2 because Sweden is inconsequential post the Viking invasion of Wessex until then, and after.  

Sweden may be a nice country to live, but the grass is not always greener on the other side.  So far SC has not said one thing that would make me want to live there...

There is no way I'd choose Sweden over Canada, 

Well. You have that concert hall in Vancouver where you won't even see Neil Young (!) and Sweden has the national arena "Friends Arena" where Eddie had to make excuses from the stage about how they "did all they could to make the sound OK, but they have heard about the problems regarding the sound in the arena".

It's a coin toss. :P

I’m comfortable not seeing Neil anywhere near me. 
 

Agree. Neil is awful. 

No wine with ice for you! And revocation of citizenship for the other!!
 

benjs said:

Meltdown99 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What makes you think the us education system is failing? If anything at least around here it is better than ever. (New Jersey is ranked either 1 or 2 in the us)
and remember, standardized tests are just a snapshot off the students year. 

I am beginning to think if someone says something positive about the US others will go out of there way to also disparage the US...anyways...Arizona would be my winter home if I could afford it.  Sedona to be specific.  And Canada would remain my permanent home.

Went to Sedona last year after a conference and holy crap was it ever beautiful!

It really is.  There is some really nice hiking in the area as well.  I did the Oak Creek Canyon Drive, really beautiful...

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

ANY BERNIE FANS IN DA HOUSE?!

Bernie's non-progressive values annoy the shit out of me.  

In the US,  it would impossible for his ideas not to be considered progress.

Socialist and progressive are not interchangeable terms.  

So, please tell me in what way would tax funded health care not be progress in this country of yours?

I mean, how many years behind the rest of the world are you with that basic idea?

So yes, from where you stand as a country -- some social democratic values, that spread through more successful democracies decades ago, would be progress for you. Because you are Twilight Zone levels of behind in the name of capitalism and political corruption.

Progress is not synonymous with progressive.  They may overlap from a terms perspective, but they are not the same, just like socialism is not always the same.  None of your last paragraph has anything to do with the distinction I'm drawing between a progressive policy and socialist policy.  

Okey. Well my point still stands.

So does mine.  Bernie's policies, by and large, are not progressive.  I don't like them.  

list some policies of his you do not like?

Free college tuition and debt forgiveness.  These are not progressive.  They disproportionately help middle class white people. 

Debt forgiveness I do not understand.

Free college tuition - didn't you already have that  decades ago in the states (?). I don't see any reason why you should have a paywall to help rich people get better education (but maybe there is one). If Sweden, and other countries, can have "free tuition" and no paywall to get into a College and University - then I vote PROGRESS on that one. 

You don't have a vote and you still don't understand the political distinction I am drawing.  

Your distinction is moot. I'm not talking about your distinction.  

Moving towards a European model of not paywalling people out of education in the Twilight Zone of America is PROGRESS.

I press that button again:

In Canada we have highly subsidized education for college/university (I suppose somewhere between the States and no-pay countries in Europe, closer to Europe) but I have to say - this is socialism, and this is something palatable to Canadians. Ramming these same concepts down the throats of Americans is only progress if they’re accepted by the people and the lawmakers (and if they’re viable economically), and frankly, I don’t see it being accepted by any group based on the sentiments seen in the country today. It’s only progress if the needle moves - if the ideas are too stigmatized to succeed then trying to make them succeed is asinine. Before cranking it to 11, recognizing the polarization which exists today and making smaller moves in a direction we see as valid will likely be the only way these reforms pass. You can have the best ideas in the world but if you can’t execute then there’s the real moot point.

Also, I don’t know if I’d like Sanders’ plan, and maybe that’s because four fucking bullet points isn’t a plan. Biden’s plan linked for contrast. These both are written so politically - all glorious things which ‘will happen if I become President’ without discussing downstream/upstream of the plan.  

https://berniesanders.com/issues/college-for-all/
https://joebiden.com/education/

Finally, why does everything someone doesn’t like on here need a fucking nickname? Do you need to show smug elitism at least once per post? It’s not helping you sell your ideas which is why you start to resemble a troll on here.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

benjs said:

which is why you start to resemble a troll on here.

Well, I am from the city of:



Notice the sticker put on the cars rolling out of our once beautiful SAAB factory:



Here is Jay Leno driving one, notice the sticker:

https://instagram.com/p/Bv36pBoAvL2/embed/

My take is though, people who consider me a "troll" need to look themselves in the mirror. Your country will not cry itself to sleep because I gave it a nickname. It is not a person. I understand it is the land of the free and a nation under god. But it is not crying itself to sleep. I can assure you.

Obviously I can understand if it did cry itself to sleep, being played like a harp from hell by Trump, the corrupt republicans and people not being able to see other countries do some things a lot better and more sane.

Please don’t treat me like an idiot. I know you’re not talking to a country - you’re talking to residents of one and your stupid names regularly change the conversation dramatically from the thing that you’re advocating for. On the topic of mirrors - why don’t you look at your posts here and see how they stoke the flames of what you call nationalism on here, propagating the thing you claim to hate the most. You’re also mockingly bringing up the land of the free bullshit yet again, not anyone else. 

Thanks also for ignoring the substantial part of my message and focusing on one sentence. You present ideas that work in Sweden like they should just be plug-and-play, and boom, progress. Things don’t exist in vacuums and what works in one nation may be a noble aspiration for another, but still likely won’t be feasible in such a polarized political and socioeconomic environment as the US today. 

For example, Republicans have already weaponized socialistic behaviours, and college-for-all will be exclusively cost for the entire tenure of a hypothetical Sanders presidency. That will be inevitably be exploited as proof of the socialistic boogeyman. In addition, while you have consensus in your mind (so nice and easy to form consensus with a party of one) America doesn’t share your confidence about the direction it should take. Also, my stance that these ideas will not reach a chance to move forward is not without precedence: Bernie ran on the same platform last time and where did that get him? What you would call the corrupt system is the only system the States have to work with right now, and if a politician can’t operate within it to sell their ideas successfully, their ideas are clearly doomed. I will take a smaller amount of progress in progressive directions over no amount of progress due to an unwillingness to compromise to anything less than glorious Swedish levels any day.

One last note, while I am a dual citizen of Canada and the US, I would not claim to call the States ‘my country’ having never lived there before. Not a big deal though.

benjs said:

I hope I can develop the self-restraint to never play them again with you.

Okey. Will try to remember to let you know, if you find yourself getting lured back in. 

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:mo

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

ANY BERNIE FANS IN DA HOUSE?!

Bernie's non-progressive values annoy the shit out of me.  

In the US,  it would impossible for his ideas not to be considered progress.

Socialist and progressive are not interchangeable terms.  

So, please tell me in what way would tax funded health care not be progress in this country of yours?

I mean, how many years behind the rest of the world are you with that basic idea?

So yes, from where you stand as a country -- some social democratic values, that spread through more successful democracies decades ago, would be progress for you. Because you are Twilight Zone levels of behind in the name of capitalism and political corruption.

Progress is not synonymous with progressive.  They may overlap from a terms perspective, but they are not the same, just like socialism is not always the same.  None of your last paragraph has anything to do with the distinction I'm drawing between a progressive policy and socialist policy.  

Okey. Well my point still stands.

So does mine.  Bernie's policies, by and large, are not progressive.  I don't like them.  

list some policies of his you do not like?

Free college tuition and debt forgiveness.  These are not progressive.  They disproportionately help middle class white people. 

Are there not college's that offer a good education that is affordable for many/most?  I just always assumed the ones that drive people into extreme debt is Harvard's, Michigan, Usc type schools?  

Yes absolutely.  You can do two years of junior college and then transfer to a state university.  People make bad choices and attend private and out of state colleges,  substantially increasing their debt.  And for those that are from truly disadvantaged backgrounds,  there are plenty of federal grants. 
You can also do what my daughter is doing now. She took AP classes in high school so she had over 25 credits when she entered William and Mary,  a public school.  Then she maxed out each semester at 18 credits. The price was the same whether you do 12 or 18. So she will graduate a full year early,  saving us a good chunk.  

It sounds like there are plenty of options...no matter the income level.  

Well there is a problem though.  The cost curve has far outpaced any other normal inflation by a long shot.  I think the root is a mixture of 1. cuts at the state gov't level for university funding (remember there are no federal schools), a massive increase in the investment of amenities at the schools and then students make poor choices about what they can afford long term.  The availability of public and private money makes it easy to choose that small liberal arts school at 45k a year.  We need reform, but just socializing it is not the answer. 

Meltdown99 said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

ANY BERNIE FANS IN DA HOUSE?!

Bernie's non-progressive values annoy the shit out of me.  

In the US,  it would impossible for his ideas not to be considered progress.

Socialist and progressive are not interchangeable terms.  

So, please tell me in what way would tax funded health care not be progress in this country of yours?

I mean, how many years behind the rest of the world are you with that basic idea?

So yes, from where you stand as a country -- some social democratic values, that spread through more successful democracies decades ago, would be progress for you. Because you are Twilight Zone levels of behind in the name of capitalism and political corruption.

Progress is not synonymous with progressive.  They may overlap from a terms perspective, but they are not the same, just like socialism is not always the same.  None of your last paragraph has anything to do with the distinction I'm drawing between a progressive policy and socialist policy.  

Okey. Well my point still stands.

So does mine.  Bernie's policies, by and large, are not progressive.  I don't like them.  

list some policies of his you do not like?

Free college tuition and debt forgiveness.  These are not progressive.  They disproportionately help middle class white people. 

Are there not college's that offer a good education that is affordable for many/most?  I just always assumed the ones that drive people into extreme debt is Harvard's, Michigan, Usc type schools?  

In addition, there are universities with terrific co-op/intern programs. I had a 5 year program for engineering. However, that included 7 quarters (the equivalent of 2.3 years of normal college) of co-point...working for pay in the field of choice.

I did have a scholly that helped freshmen year, but after that I was able to pay for everything based on my own earnings, and this was without a job during the quarters I was at school. So there are some great options out there, but it still hard to argue that universities aren’t out of reach for many still.  I’m not sure why more don’t consider community colleges...the system is in place there. I’d support some government funding for specific degrees at community colleges and trade schools...with much more limited support for 4 year schools unless targeted degrees.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

benjs said:

I hope I can develop the self-restraint to never play them again with you.

Okey. Will try to remember to let you know, if you find yourself getting lured back in. 

If benjs is backing out of a conversation with you, you should probably think a bit about your posting. He is probably the most level headed person here. 

Meltdown99 said:

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

mrussel1 said:

Meltdown99 said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

mrussel1 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

ANY BERNIE FANS IN DA HOUSE?!

Bernie's non-progressive values annoy the shit out of me.  

In the US,  it would impossible for his ideas not to be considered progress.

Socialist and progressive are not interchangeable terms.  

So, please tell me in what way would tax funded health care not be progress in this country of yours?

I mean, how many years behind the rest of the world are you with that basic idea?

So yes, from where you stand as a country -- some social democratic values, that spread through more successful democracies decades ago, would be progress for you. Because you are Twilight Zone levels of behind in the name of capitalism and political corruption.

Progress is not synonymous with progressive.  They may overlap from a terms perspective, but they are not the same, just like socialism is not always the same.  None of your last paragraph has anything to do with the distinction I'm drawing between a progressive policy and socialist policy.  

Okey. Well my point still stands.

So does mine.  Bernie's policies, by and large, are not progressive.  I don't like them.  

list some policies of his you do not like?

Free college tuition and debt forgiveness.  These are not progressive.  They disproportionately help middle class white people. 

Are there not college's that offer a good education that is affordable for many/most?  I just always assumed the ones that drive people into extreme debt is Harvard's, Michigan, Usc type schools?  

Yes absolutely.  You can do two years of junior college and then transfer to a state university.  People make bad choices and attend private and out of state colleges,  substantially increasing their debt.  And for those that are from truly disadvantaged backgrounds,  there are plenty of federal grants. 
You can also do what my daughter is doing now. She took AP classes in high school so she had over 25 credits when she entered William and Mary,  a public school.  Then she maxed out each semester at 18 credits. The price was the same whether you do 12 or 18. So she will graduate a full year early,  saving us a good chunk.  

It sounds like there are plenty of options...no matter the income level.  

Well there is a problem though.  The cost curve has far outpaced any other normal inflation by a long shot.  I think the root is a mixture of 1. cuts at the state gov't level for university funding (remember there are no federal schools), a massive increase in the investment of amenities at the schools and then students make poor choices about what they can afford long term.  The availability of public and private money makes it easy to choose that small liberal arts school at 45k a year.  We need reform, but just socializing it is not the answer. 

I think the same can be said here Canada about the cost.  Now, it's safe to assume when people talk free education, they are referring to tuition?  Because I worked with a fellow who did not see free education as all that much help in the grand scheme of things...because his daughter had to attend school out of town, housing, books and daily living far outweighed tuition...or does free include all this as well?  Don't get me wrong any help is appreciated, but either way, as he put it, it's still costing a good chunk of coin.

In Sweden (as an example I know a little about) you do not pay for the tuition or to attend the University etc. This is free - and everyone has a "fair" shot, regardless of economic means. It's all about your grades when competing for a spot. 

You do pay for books, housing, materials ofc though. 

In Sweden you get a "subsidy/grant"  for studying and you can also add a "state funded" student loan with "generous" terms . Which pretty much everyone does, if they do not choose to work instead or live at home.

Per week (for University and similar schools) at the moment it is: 
Subsidy/Grant:  $85
Loan (100%): $195