I wonder if anyone in the history of the world who really was buying into a false narrative actually knew it at the time?? I doubt it. I'm not saying this about you specifically HFD. Just a general question.
we're allowed to criticize "our own", and it has zero to do (in my case, anyway) with her thing with Biden.
And yes, i'd agree I'd much prefer her over many of the high profile republicans, including LG.
Your success is not linked with where you come from, but what you can accomplish. I believe it's extremely constructive criticism if someone being constructively criticized would care to listen - and I believe that when preaching to "those old dem stalwarts", my same question would be - but is it constructive or relevant criticism?
This is a matter of opinion at this point so take it with a grain of salt, but suppose that you were to superimpose the population of America onto this lovely diagram of the political spectrum. Now, picture where in the political spectrum AOC's positions will yield her votes and respect. How wide of a range is that? What percentage of the population is within that subset of the spectrum?
Next, pretend that AOC were to take a principled yet pragmatic stance where she showed openness to compromise recognizing that the direction is right, even if the progress is insufficient for the end goal. How wide of a range is her spectrum now? What would you imagine the impact to the extreme left wing cohort would be in that situation?
My theory is that a willingness to compromise will expose AOC to a further-centered cohort of population voters currently inaccessible to her, as well a further-centered cohort of political voters currently inaccessible to her, with negligible lack of support from what I suspect to be a smaller cohort than we think (which is likely since extremes are typically the loudest, not the largest).
Disagree with the bolded part and the diagram to illustrate your point. First, "where you come from" and more imporatntly, your race, ethnicity and sex, sexual orientation, certainly play a roll in your success/accomplishments, of which you're judged, fairly or not, whether by your family, friends, colleagues or society. If AOC weren't a congresswoman and were a lawyer, doctor, accountant, architect, etc., she'd be earning $0.80 for every dollar her male colleagues might earn, on average. Any black kid that made it out of Cabrini Green in Chicago and entered the professional work force isn't going to be as "successful," however you define it, to a white kid that comes out of Chevy Chase, Maryland, even if they both go to Harvard or Yale. Chances are, "your" success is partly determined by your race, ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation and where you come from. Take two white kids, one from Southie, one from Westchester, NY. Both go to Harvard, graduate with the same GPA in business. Both apply for jobs on Wall Street. Which kid has more doors open for them? Which kid is viewed "more like us?" "Where you come from directly impacts your ability to be "successful." It shouldn't be that way, but it is. Doesn't mean that others can't be successful, because they can but they have fewer or different opportunities to be so.
How do you know AOC hasn't listened? Maybe she has and she's being told the same things she and many of her constiuents have been told their whole lives, wait your turn, slow down, take a number. Well, maybe she's tired of waiting for that change that never comes? The day we're posting about AOC and her FU to the establishment, it was 84 degress in the Artic Circle and CO2 levels reached 455 ppm for the first time in 3 million years. Wait your turn, you sassy malassie! Why do you think she was "preaching" to those old dem stalwarts? The Green New Deal is not an actionable plan but a call to arms, to begin the debate, and whether you agree or not, actionable and debateable policy goals. The point is to do "something," and "something" never happens. Not one repub voted for Obamacare and 9 years later, after attempt after attempt to repeal, gut it, burn it to the ground, they still haven't come up with a plan to replace it. The definition of "do nothing." Meanwhile, Team Trump Treason is promoting fossil fuels and damning wind turbines. And the dems sit on their hands. And nothing changes.
The "lovely diagram of political spectrum," is flawed. The opposite of "conservatism" is "liberalism," not "socialism." Further, social change should sit on both sides of "status quo," right? Both liberals and conservatives want social change over the status quo, whether its abortion, school choice, welfare, healthcare, tax policy, etc. And why is the left "radical" and the right is "reactionary?" One connotes a departure from established norms while the other connotes protecting established norms, to me anyway. Like access to success, there's a built in bias. Now, superimpose AOC's tact, beliefs, etc over the diagram. What do you get? The same the other side would get with their right version of AOC, pick up more of the center, at the expense of your base or lose more lefties/righties to gain more centrists. That said, AOC is not running nationwide. She's appealing to her base and even if its uppity, sassy, disrespectful, too much, too soon, overeager, tactless, her policies would benefit more people in the center, even if they're further left than the centrists, than the alternative. And don't confuse her votes with her rhetoric. Chances are, she'll vote party over principle when it means the most more often than not and she ultimately has to answer to her constiuents, not Faux News or a nationwide electorate. Time will tell.
H2TM, thanks for such thoughtful and persuasive arguments here!
Regarding "where you come from" - you're right, it was pretty binary of me to say "not" to that. I should've said that your success is not caused by where you come from, but influenced greatly by where you come from. What I meant was that AOC being a young minority congresswoman is not likely to be a thing that makes her remembered - it will be her ability to see her ideas executed.
On listening - if the Green New Deal isn't an actionable plan but a call to arms, at first I was thinking "well then, why doesn't she just discuss it in Congress without forcing a vote on the matter", but maybe that braveness of forcing people to take a side is warranted at this point. I still fear the repercussions to her own ability to politically succeed, as well as the influence on the DNC voting base, but if it turns out the movement is produced through this action (regardless of where AOC is at the time) then all of these points are moot because she'll have lost the battle but won the war. As usual, I really do hope you're right. We have very similar visions of what the country could look like, I think, you just have faith that I don't in the ability to get there.
Finally, on the political spectrum diagram - I agree, the labelling in hindsight is way out to lunch. If you just focus on the idea of a spectrum though without the labels, I feel that what I wrote holds true. On the national opinion - the sad thing is, although AOC is a New York Congresswoman, she is also getting national attention because weaponizing your political opponents seems to be all the rage these days - regardless of what level of government. On the topic of who will receive the benefits of AOC's policy, if it's a move to reduce emissions, everyone collectively will receive the benefits over a long enough time period, however people have historically voted in alignment with who they feel will do best for them, and make their decision (or even their decision to learn more about a politician's positions) based on instinct and intuition over proper scientific inquiry. I would love to find out that I've been naively faithless and that she's kicking ass and we were ready this whole time for radical and necessary change, and eager to do it at the rapid pace that AOC proposes.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
'Why do you hate Hilary?' 'I just do! She's a liar'
'Why do you hate Cortez?' I just do! She's arrogant'
Yep.
"Women taking up space and having opinions - it makes me uncomfortable!"
this is such nonsense. women in power can, and SHOULD, be criticized just like men. unless you don't think they should be held to the same standards as men? is that the equality we're after?
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
'Why do you hate Hilary?' 'I just do! She's a liar'
'Why do you hate Cortez?' I just do! She's arrogant'
Yep.
"Women taking up space and having opinions - it makes me uncomfortable!"
this is such nonsense. women in power can, and SHOULD, be criticized just like men. unless you don't think they should be held to the same standards as men? is that the equality we're after?
Sometimes I think people apply their own hangups to others. It's like when you hear about the anti gay preacher busted with a male prostitute.
'Why do you hate Hilary?' 'I just do! She's a liar'
'Why do you hate Cortez?' I just do! She's arrogant'
Yep.
"Women taking up space and having opinions - it makes me uncomfortable!"
this is such nonsense. women in power can, and SHOULD, be criticized just like men. unless you don't think they should be held to the same standards as men? is that the equality we're after?
Sometimes I think people apply their own hangups to others. It's like when you hear about the anti gay preacher busted with a male prostitute.
"The lady doth protest too much, me thinks."
there is obviously some truth to what they say. there ARE people who are uncomfortable with women in power. But to just throw that out there as a blanket generalization with no basis.....seems that's happening a lot around here lately.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
AOC who? I forget about her and then this thread gets bumped so I check in and it’s much ado about a Twitter spat. Welcome to junior high. But the question is, is she representing her constituents and will she face a primary and get re-elected?
Name recognition and her name in the headlines will get her re-elected.
She won't accomplish anything but beat her chest come election time.
Reading up on things, her local constituents seem fairly pleased so far. She’s apparently quite involved on a day to day basis, attends a lot of community events, and is responsive to grass-roots organizations, though some of the other politicians say she’s not as responsive to them. Whether that’s a good or bad thing, I’m not sure, since I don’t know their motives. Maybe she’ll get re-elected for other reasons than chest-beating.
Most of her constituents say she blew it with the Amazon thing.
So Sienna poll and Quinnac poll... All these polls. I guess we can pick the ones we like to construct our arguments, lol.
So, if the majority of her constituents approve of what she’s doing, how does that support your argument?
In March they hated her. Supports my argument...
In April 52% supports her. I guess that is a majority? Half? I was actually shocked it was that high.
Why are you using national polls? Is she running for president?
I was more curious to see the polling from her district where you say they thought she blew the Amazon deal (which as proven before she didn't). Can you do that Google search for me too?
OK first. These are local poll numbers. Says it right there in the one I posted "However, while constituents in the 14th district mainly approve of Ocasio-Cortez’s performance, the poll found they aren’t very happy that Amazon earlier this year scrapped plans to build new headquarters in Long Island City — a project that the progressive lawmaker helped scuttle by mounting an aggressive advocacy push."
2nd, I know she had nothing to do with losing amazon but her constituents are upset about it... Look above.
Read the article Hoss.
Just to check "Hoss" I read the CNN article you posted (again, and I don't know why I did). Still don't see what you quoted there.
2nd article Hoss, 2nd article. I posted 2. Just realized that you kept thinking the first one to the first one.
'Why do you hate Hilary?' 'I just do! She's a liar'
'Why do you hate Cortez?' I just do! She's arrogant'
Yep.
"Women taking up space and having opinions - it makes me uncomfortable!"
That is of course a lazy, bullshit generalization. Both of my US Senators are women. I voted for both of them. My US Rep in the House is a woman. I voted for her. Are you so unimaginative that you don't understand that a woman can be great or a woman can be less than great? Are women all the same to you? If someone criticizes one woman, you want to project that to criticism of all women. Why?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
you posted that before I could have seen it all? not sure what you mean by that.
I agree with many of her ideas. never said I didn't.
It's an 11 fucking minute video and you responded two minutes after. Are you touched?
jesus. I was just asking for clarification cause to me it was worded oddly. if you had said "YOU posted that before you could have watched it all", that would have made sense.
no, I didn't watch the video yet. I'm not going to watch an 11 minute video at work. I was responding to the part I bolded only, which I thought would have been obvious.
Post edited by HughFreakingDillon on
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
'Why do you hate Hilary?' 'I just do! She's a liar'
'Why do you hate Cortez?' I just do! She's arrogant'
Yep.
"Women taking up space and having opinions - it makes me uncomfortable!"
That is of course a lazy, bullshit generalization. Both of my US Senators are women. I voted for both of them. My US Rep in the House is a woman. I voted for her. Are you so unimaginative that you don't understand that a woman can be great or a woman can be less than great? Are women all the same to you? If someone criticizes one woman, you want to project that to criticism of all women. Why?
I've gotten the same bullshit "you're afraid of powerful women" line when I've criticized anything Hillary. it's just so stupid.
"every society honours its live conformists and its dead troublemakers"
'Why do you hate Hilary?' 'I just do! She's a liar'
'Why do you hate Cortez?' I just do! She's arrogant'
Yep.
"Women taking up space and having opinions - it makes me uncomfortable!"
That is of course a lazy, bullshit generalization. Both of my US Senators are women. I voted for both of them. My US Rep in the House is a woman. I voted for her. Are you so unimaginative that you don't understand that a woman can be great or a woman can be less than great? Are women all the same to you? If someone criticizes one woman, you want to project that to criticism of all women. Why?
I've gotten the same bullshit "you're afraid of powerful women" line when I've criticized anything Hillary. it's just so stupid.
It's beyond ridiculous, and I think it drives people towards Trump.
'Why do you hate Hilary?' 'I just do! She's a liar'
'Why do you hate Cortez?' I just do! She's arrogant'
Yep.
"Women taking up space and having opinions - it makes me uncomfortable!"
That is of course a lazy, bullshit generalization. Both of my US Senators are women. I voted for both of them. My US Rep in the House is a woman. I voted for her. Are you so unimaginative that you don't understand that a woman can be great or a woman can be less than great? Are women all the same to you? If someone criticizes one woman, you want to project that to criticism of all women. Why?
I've gotten the same bullshit "you're afraid of powerful women" line when I've criticized anything Hillary. it's just so stupid.
It's beyond ridiculous, and I think it drives people towards Trump.
Comments
Regarding "where you come from" - you're right, it was pretty binary of me to say "not" to that. I should've said that your success is not caused by where you come from, but influenced greatly by where you come from. What I meant was that AOC being a young minority congresswoman is not likely to be a thing that makes her remembered - it will be her ability to see her ideas executed.
On listening - if the Green New Deal isn't an actionable plan but a call to arms, at first I was thinking "well then, why doesn't she just discuss it in Congress without forcing a vote on the matter", but maybe that braveness of forcing people to take a side is warranted at this point. I still fear the repercussions to her own ability to politically succeed, as well as the influence on the DNC voting base, but if it turns out the movement is produced through this action (regardless of where AOC is at the time) then all of these points are moot because she'll have lost the battle but won the war. As usual, I really do hope you're right. We have very similar visions of what the country could look like, I think, you just have faith that I don't in the ability to get there.
Finally, on the political spectrum diagram - I agree, the labelling in hindsight is way out to lunch. If you just focus on the idea of a spectrum though without the labels, I feel that what I wrote holds true. On the national opinion - the sad thing is, although AOC is a New York Congresswoman, she is also getting national attention because weaponizing your political opponents seems to be all the rage these days - regardless of what level of government. On the topic of who will receive the benefits of AOC's policy, if it's a move to reduce emissions, everyone collectively will receive the benefits over a long enough time period, however people have historically voted in alignment with who they feel will do best for them, and make their decision (or even their decision to learn more about a politician's positions) based on instinct and intuition over proper scientific inquiry. I would love to find out that I've been naively faithless and that she's kicking ass and we were ready this whole time for radical and necessary change, and eager to do it at the rapid pace that AOC proposes.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
"The lady doth protest too much, me thinks."
My bad Hoss.
The outrage!!
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/05/16/susan-bro-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-white-privilege-sot-vpx.cnn
I liked her tweet.
I agree with many of her ideas. never said I didn't.
no, I didn't watch the video yet. I'm not going to watch an 11 minute video at work. I was responding to the part I bolded only, which I thought would have been obvious.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com