The Democratic Candidates

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  • ikiT
    ikiT USA Posts: 11,059
    my2hands said:
    More importantly, Weld is a Neil Young & Crazy Horse live masterpiece 
    I'm more of a LIVE RUSTer.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,490
    edited April 2019
    Tiki said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Bernie slayed in that town hall.
    CNN (Erin Burnett) had a former HRC 2016 communications person and a Trump 2020 staffer talking about since how Bernie has amassed such a fortune with his book he's a hypocrite.

    So many realities.
    Can't really grasp how people can argue on such a low, simple, childlike level. It's baffling.

    In the townhall they also asked like "SO WHY HAVEN'T YOU GIVEN AWAY ALL YOUR EARNINGS IF YOU ARE A SOCIAAAAALIIIIIST?!?!".

    That is like when I was debating my christian classmate when we were 13 with "If you are christians and believe in Jesus, shouldn't your parents give away all their money to the poor?"

    The difference being, my argument still stands towards christian - Bernie wants systemic change. And therefore want to pay a higher percentage in taxes.

    He's a Social Democrat and believes that the ones who can give more should help out more and the ones who need help should get help. Like in a family (Why the swedish term for this thinking is "the peoples home" (folkhemmet)). 

    (surprised he gave so little to charity though, if Fox was correct in what they said about that) 
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,383
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Bernie slayed in that town hall.
    Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I found him arrogant and rude, and I didn't appreciate how he kept speaking over his hosts. I also think there would've been more productive ways to tell Fox off than just seeming absurdly cranky for the whole time. Finally, this read as a guy who just can't stop talking about Trump, even for a second. It'll be interesting to see whether his strategy (which I can't honestly figure out this time around) works. 
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • curmudgeoness
    curmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 4,130
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Pete: "I believe in democratic capitalism". What the hell is that. 

    "Democratic Capitalism" sounds like a way to lure moderates and republicans? "DON'T MENTION "SOCIALISM"!. Is it to contrast other candidates like Bernie that is more outspoken progressive and who's not afraid to say that Europe (with its democratic socialistic tradition) does things differently for a good reason (health care etc)?

    Thank god for the Social Democratic values that has run through and shaped this country for the last 100+ years.

    I'M CLOSE TO JUMPING SHIP ON PETE! 

    Democratic capitalism -- what he was saying was, he's not against capitalism but we should not prioritize it over the well-being of our citizens. That's as close to a direct quote as I can muster without spending two hours poring over videos of interviews.

    He also has discussed his use of a moderate tone -- to really get things done, you need to stop yelling and scaring people away. Meet them where they are, couch things in language they can understand.

    For better or worse, we are not Europe. This is an enormous and enormously diverse country and, while we actually hear a lot about how Scandinavian countries are doing things better than we are, the idea of imposing that sort of radical change is going to scare away, dare I say, millions of people.

    Pete's theme -- see his new campaign materials -- is, build bridges, not walls. The rifts in our society are large and growing. I believe we need a candidate who can:

    1) defeat the current president

    2) help mend those rifts -- that includes lowering the volume on national debates. There is SO MUCH YELLING, be it inter-party or intra-party. That needs to stop.

    I think Pete can do both of those things. I don't think Bernie can do either of them.

    I'll never, ever, ever vote for Agent Orange. But if Bernie Sanders is the Democratic nominee, I don't know if I can vote for him. I certainly couldn't watch the debates ( again, SO MUCH YELLING). I would easily, readily, happily, enthusiastically vote for anyone other than Sanders or Gabbard. I follow several conservatives who are vehemently opposed to the current president. Rick Wilson, a former GOP strategist, keeps saying: Democrats, if you nominate Bernie, you are forcing a lot of voters to make a choice between him and 45, and in so doing you are virtually guaranteeing another four years of this hell. Yes, I saw yesterday's stories saying Sanders could prevail, but, frankly, I'm not convinced of that. I'm deeply distressed by what we have now, but when i look at Sanders I just don't see anything I like (and I turn down the volume, because SO MUCH YELLING).
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,490
    In Sweden we have a general tax on income that is something like 25%. 

    If you earn more than $50.000 a year, you will pay 20% extra tax on the amount above that.
    If you earn more than $71.000 a year, you will pay 25% on everything above that (this is about to be removed in Sweden though)


    How does it work in the US?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • curmudgeoness
    curmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 4,130
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertberger/2017/12/17/the-new-2018-federal-income-tax-brackets-rates/#331dc212292a
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • curmudgeoness
    curmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 4,130

    2018 Income Tax Brackets

    Rate Individuals Married Filing Jointly
    10% Up to $9,525 Up to $19,050
    12% $9,526 to $38,700 $19,051 to $77,400
     22% 38,701 to $82,500 $77,401 to $165,000
    24% $82,501 to $157,500 $165,001 to $315,000
    32% $157,501 to $200,000 $315,001 to $400,000
    35% $200,001 to $500,000 $400,001 to $600,000
    37% over $500,000 over $600,000

    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,490
    edited April 2019
    benjs said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Bernie slayed in that town hall.
    Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I found him arrogant and rude, and I didn't appreciate how he kept speaking over his hosts. I also think there would've been more productive ways to tell Fox off than just seeming absurdly cranky for the whole time. Finally, this read as a guy who just can't stop talking about Trump, even for a second. It'll be interesting to see whether his strategy (which I can't honestly figure out this time around) works. 
    I actually agree. Slaying was hyperbole. I liked his ending with the audience participation. But his constant "you guys at Fox" set the tone, and you could tell he felt there was a total bias against him from the getgo. This also gave, as you said, an arrogant impression - instead of going in naive and take the questions as they come. I do think he was good when he went into actually answering though - and some of his remarks to the hosts and Trump was kind of funny. And might work to shake the Fox viewers a bit.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • ikiT
    ikiT USA Posts: 11,059

    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • curmudgeoness
    curmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 4,130
    Things were "simplified" in 2018 by limiting certain deductions and eliminating others.

    We also pay state taxes, which vary from state to state. Some states have no income tax (Texas, Florida); California has a top tax bracket of 13.6%. New Jersey has non-marginal rates, which means if you earn less than 50K you pay one rate, if you earn between 50 and 500K you pay another rate, and over 500K you pay a third rate -- on every dollar, not on each additional dollar over 500K.

    We also have property taxes -- taxes that are paid to the town where you live on the value of your property. Property values vary widely from state to state and from neighborhood to neighborhood. In the town where I grew up, many houses are worth less than a used car. In other towns, very average-looking single-family homes go for $2-3 million. And the rates paid on those properties also vary (1%? 3%? it adds up.).

    "Blue" states tend to have higher state and local taxes -- so, take New Jersey, with a rather high state tax plus utterly insane property taxes. In past years, those taxes, along with most or all of one's mortgage interest, could be deducted, similar to charitable contributions or medical expenses. As of 2018, there is a cap on the SALT (state and local tax) deduction, of $10,000. Having lived in NJ and California, I can assure you that many, many, many people in those states are going to hit their SALT cap based on their property taxes alone.

    So, if you earn, say, $100,000 per year, your tax bill will depend on where you live as well as on your family size and marital status. And you probably can infer from my comments about property values that costs of living vary widely from place to place here, too. $100K is a healthy income in many places, not so much in New York or San Francisco if you have a family to support.
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,490
    curmudgeoness said:
    . New Jersey has non-marginal rates, which means if you earn less than 50K you pay one rate, if you earn between 50 and 500K you pay another rate, and over 500K you pay a third rate -- on every dollar, not on each additional dollar over 500K.
    This is how I remember people believing the swedish system was when I was young.  

    So in New Jersey, you will make more money earning 499K than if you make 501K?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • curmudgeoness
    curmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 4,130
    You might see, if you have the time and interest (and I'm not blaming you if you don't have those), arguments between red-staters and blue-staters over whether or not blue states -- high-tax states -- were scamming the system before or are being screwed now. Residents of high-tax states will note that they have better public services -- infrastructure, schools, etc. -- and they tend to be more affluent states, paying more federal taxes in general, so they already were paying more than their fair share to the benefit of people in poorer states, who receive more federal aid. I don't have the energy to wade into that fight right now.


    Property taxes are used, among other things, to fund public schools. Better schools means higher property values, which means higher taxes, which fund better schools....  I don't know how things are handled in other states, but i know NJ redistributed a portion of property tax revenue from wealthier districts to fund schools in lower-income districts.

    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • curmudgeoness
    curmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 4,130
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    curmudgeoness said:
    . New Jersey has non-marginal rates, which means if you earn less than 50K you pay one rate, if you earn between 50 and 500K you pay another rate, and over 500K you pay a third rate -- on every dollar, not on each additional dollar over 500K.
    This is how I remember people believing the swedish system was when I was young.  

    So in New Jersey, you will make more money earning 499K than if you make 501K?

    I moved away a few years ago, but IIRC the rate was 8.9% for 50-500K and 9.9% for 500K+.  So, yes.
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,884
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    curmudgeoness said:
    . New Jersey has non-marginal rates, which means if you earn less than 50K you pay one rate, if you earn between 50 and 500K you pay another rate, and over 500K you pay a third rate -- on every dollar, not on each additional dollar over 500K.
    This is how I remember people believing the swedish system was when I was young.  

    So in New Jersey, you will make more money earning 499K than if you make 501K?
    No.  The concept of marginal income tax is that you only pay the higher margin on the amount that exceeds the next lower bracket.  So you would buy a higher tax rate on only 2k, not the whole 501k.  
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,884
    'pay' not 'buy.  Have no idea why I typed that.  
  • curmudgeoness
    curmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capital Posts: 4,130
    mrussel1 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    curmudgeoness said:
    . New Jersey has non-marginal rates, which means if you earn less than 50K you pay one rate, if you earn between 50 and 500K you pay another rate, and over 500K you pay a third rate -- on every dollar, not on each additional dollar over 500K.
    This is how I remember people believing the swedish system was when I was young.  

    So in New Jersey, you will make more money earning 499K than if you make 501K?
    No.  The concept of marginal income tax is that you only pay the higher margin on the amount that exceeds the next lower bracket.  So you would buy a higher tax rate on only 2k, not the whole 501k.  

    But in New Jersey the tax is NOT marginal. That was my original point. The tax rate you pay in NJ applies to every dollar you earn.
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    Tiki said:

    Flying the flag!!!
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,490
    mrussel1 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    curmudgeoness said:
    . New Jersey has non-marginal rates, which means if you earn less than 50K you pay one rate, if you earn between 50 and 500K you pay another rate, and over 500K you pay a third rate -- on every dollar, not on each additional dollar over 500K.
    This is how I remember people believing the swedish system was when I was young.  

    So in New Jersey, you will make more money earning 499K than if you make 501K?
    No.  The concept of marginal income tax is that you only pay the higher margin on the amount that exceeds the next lower bracket.  So you would buy a higher tax rate on only 2k, not the whole 501k.  
    That is how it is in Sweden, but:

    curmudgeoness said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    curmudgeoness said:
    . New Jersey has non-marginal rates, which means if you earn less than 50K you pay one rate, if you earn between 50 and 500K you pay another rate, and over 500K you pay a third rate -- on every dollar, not on each additional dollar over 500K.
    This is how I remember people believing the swedish system was when I was young.  

    So in New Jersey, you will make more money earning 499K than if you make 501K?
    No.  The concept of marginal income tax is that you only pay the higher margin on the amount that exceeds the next lower bracket.  So you would buy a higher tax rate on only 2k, not the whole 501k.  

    But in New Jersey the tax is NOT marginal. That was my original point. The tax rate you pay in NJ applies to every dollar you earn.

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,664
    my2hands said:
    More importantly, Weld is a Neil Young & Crazy Horse live masterpiece 
    Haha!  When I read "Weld", that was my first thought as well.  My my, hey hey!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,884
    curmudgeoness said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    curmudgeoness said:
    . New Jersey has non-marginal rates, which means if you earn less than 50K you pay one rate, if you earn between 50 and 500K you pay another rate, and over 500K you pay a third rate -- on every dollar, not on each additional dollar over 500K.
    This is how I remember people believing the swedish system was when I was young.  

    So in New Jersey, you will make more money earning 499K than if you make 501K?
    No.  The concept of marginal income tax is that you only pay the higher margin on the amount that exceeds the next lower bracket.  So you would buy a higher tax rate on only 2k, not the whole 501k.  

    But in New Jersey the tax is NOT marginal. That was my original point. The tax rate you pay in NJ applies to every dollar you earn.
    Oh I missed that.  I thought we were discussing federal.  My bad.  Wow, that is tough. 
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