$15 minimum wage

1567810

Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,805
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong... wrong,
    Wrong wrong wrong."
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,306
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I will clarify, I live 4 hours south of Toronto...where I live is affordable making 14/hour, in Toronto, no way that is liveable. In Ontario, we used to have a student, farm, server minimum wages...

    I like your idea about seniors, I wonder how many seniors would love to work in your book store just to make a few bucks to make life easier, but it would help many combat loneliness at the same time...loneliness among seniors is getting worse they say.
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 10,484
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 

    Unfortunately, a lot of students and retired people are working to survive, not to get out of the house a little, and it just isn't fair that their labour is valued less than other adults. The "starving student" isn't just a myth. Way back when I was in university, I had a job all the way through, so that I could afford to eat on top of tuition and rent and books and everything else. Costs are higher now, even more students are struggling, and we have seniors who can't afford to retire. If there are seniors out there who are only working to have something to do, then they can volunteer. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,805
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 

    Unfortunately, a lot of students and retired people are working to survive, not to get out of the house a little, and it just isn't fair that their labour is valued less than other adults. The "starving student" isn't just a myth. Way back when I was in university, I had a job all the way through, so that I could afford to eat on top of tuition and rent and books and everything else. Costs are higher now, even more students are struggling, and we have seniors who can't afford to retire. If there are seniors out there who are only working to have something to do, then they can volunteer. 
    Why does it have to be black or white.  Why can there not be exceptions?   A lot of students would be happy to make a few bucks while still living at home and not being self supportive and a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness- or maybe they just need that little extra money to get by and no one will hire them except for bookstores like our- but only if we can afford to do so.  Please consider what I am saying here.  You did not address either of those.
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong... wrong,
    Wrong wrong wrong."
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 10,484
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 

    Unfortunately, a lot of students and retired people are working to survive, not to get out of the house a little, and it just isn't fair that their labour is valued less than other adults. The "starving student" isn't just a myth. Way back when I was in university, I had a job all the way through, so that I could afford to eat on top of tuition and rent and books and everything else. Costs are higher now, even more students are struggling, and we have seniors who can't afford to retire. If there are seniors out there who are only working to have something to do, then they can volunteer. 
    Why does it have to be black or white.  Why can there not be exceptions?   A lot of students would be happy to make a few bucks while still living at home and not being self supportive and a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness- or maybe they just need that little extra money to get by and no one will hire them except for bookstores like our- but only if we can afford to do so.  Please consider what I am saying here.  You did not address either of those.

    How can legislation be enacted that would allow for differences in pay depending on what you're suggesting? How can one enact legislation that says this senior citizen doesn't really need to work but that one does? How do you separate this 17 year old who lives in a middle class family and just wants a bit of money for flashy sneakers from that one who was kicked out, or left home because of abuse, and needs to work to live? I can't see any practical or fair way to do that. 

    Yes, I did address the issue of "a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness" - those are the people that can have those needs and more met by volunteering, which surely would give a greater sense of contribution and accomplishment because it would be directly helping others, or a cause important to them. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,805
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 

    Unfortunately, a lot of students and retired people are working to survive, not to get out of the house a little, and it just isn't fair that their labour is valued less than other adults. The "starving student" isn't just a myth. Way back when I was in university, I had a job all the way through, so that I could afford to eat on top of tuition and rent and books and everything else. Costs are higher now, even more students are struggling, and we have seniors who can't afford to retire. If there are seniors out there who are only working to have something to do, then they can volunteer. 
    Why does it have to be black or white.  Why can there not be exceptions?   A lot of students would be happy to make a few bucks while still living at home and not being self supportive and a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness- or maybe they just need that little extra money to get by and no one will hire them except for bookstores like our- but only if we can afford to do so.  Please consider what I am saying here.  You did not address either of those.

    How can legislation be enacted that would allow for differences in pay depending on what you're suggesting? How can one enact legislation that says this senior citizen doesn't really need to work but that one does? How do you separate this 17 year old who lives in a middle class family and just wants a bit of money for flashy sneakers from that one who was kicked out, or left home because of abuse, and needs to work to live? I can't see any practical or fair way to do that. 

    Yes, I did address the issue of "a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness" - those are the people that can have those needs and more met by volunteering, which surely would give a greater sense of contribution and accomplishment because it would be directly helping others, or a cause important to them. 
    I agree, making those differences would be difficult. But I do think it could be done.  Much more difficult and complex issues are dealt with by the IRS, for example.  

    As for the elderly- what about the retired person who would benefit from having a 10 hour a week job making $10 or $12 an hour- giving her or him those couple extra hundred dollars that would make the difference between eating oatmeal for breakfast every day or maybe being able to have eggs and an English muffin once in a while?  Or keeping the thermostat at 66 degrees Fahrenheit in the winter instead of 62?  There are a lot of elderly on fixed incomes who have a tough time getting by on social security- many of them need that extra couple of hundred dollars a month to get by.  Who is going to help them with that?  Not many.  But I've seen it done where I work. 

    And what about the small businesses on Main Street that cannot afford to pay every retail or service employee $15 an hour.  Do we really want them to all just shut down, thus eroding an already weakened sense of community in many places?

    And then there is the issue of proximity.  At $15 an hour, most people where I live (El Dorado County, Calif.) can get by OK, but just.  Almost anywhere in the Bay Area a couple hours away, next to impossible.

    So my proposal would be to set minimum wage based on county location, and draw up a basic plan for exemptions to minimum wage based on reasonable factors as I've outlined. 
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong... wrong,
    Wrong wrong wrong."
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,270
    Aren't there usually exemptions for small enough businesses with low enough revenue?
    I know there have always been such protections in Ohio.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,306
    edited March 10
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 

    Unfortunately, a lot of students and retired people are working to survive, not to get out of the house a little, and it just isn't fair that their labour is valued less than other adults. The "starving student" isn't just a myth. Way back when I was in university, I had a job all the way through, so that I could afford to eat on top of tuition and rent and books and everything else. Costs are higher now, even more students are struggling, and we have seniors who can't afford to retire. If there are seniors out there who are only working to have something to do, then they can volunteer. 
    Why does it have to be black or white.  Why can there not be exceptions?   A lot of students would be happy to make a few bucks while still living at home and not being self supportive and a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness- or maybe they just need that little extra money to get by and no one will hire them except for bookstores like our- but only if we can afford to do so.  Please consider what I am saying here.  You did not address either of those.

    How can legislation be enacted that would allow for differences in pay depending on what you're suggesting? How can one enact legislation that says this senior citizen doesn't really need to work but that one does? How do you separate this 17 year old who lives in a middle class family and just wants a bit of money for flashy sneakers from that one who was kicked out, or left home because of abuse, and needs to work to live? I can't see any practical or fair way to do that. 

    Yes, I did address the issue of "a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness" - those are the people that can have those needs and more met by volunteering, which surely would give a greater sense of contribution and accomplishment because it would be directly helping others, or a cause important to them. 
    I agree, making those differences would be difficult. But I do think it could be done.  Much more difficult and complex issues are dealt with by the IRS, for example.  

    As for the elderly- what about the retired person who would benefit from having a 10 hour a week job making $10 or $12 an hour- giving her or him those couple extra hundred dollars that would make the difference between eating oatmeal for breakfast every day or maybe being able to have eggs and an English muffin once in a while?  Or keeping the thermostat at 66 degrees Fahrenheit in the winter instead of 62?  There are a lot of elderly on fixed incomes who have a tough time getting by on social security- many of them need that extra couple of hundred dollars a month to get by.  Who is going to help them with that?  Not many.  But I've seen it done where I work. 

    And what about the small businesses on Main Street that cannot afford to pay every retail or service employee $15 an hour.  Do we really want them to all just shut down, thus eroding an already weakened sense of community in many places?

    And then there is the issue of proximity.  At $15 an hour, most people where I live (El Dorado County, Calif.) can get by OK, but just.  Almost anywhere in the Bay Area a couple hours away, next to impossible.

    So my proposal would be to set minimum wage based on county location, and draw up a basic plan for exemptions to minimum wage based on reasonable factors as I've outlined. 
    Brian, a year ago Ontario increased the minimum to 14/hr, it was about a 2.60 increase, all at one time.  I am telling you this, the only people who gave a damn what small business said, were other small business owners.  And it did increase the price of most everything.  Another thing about minimum wage, if you increase minimum, then those living on fixed pensions need an increase and that never happens.


    Post edited by Meltdown99 on
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,805
    rgambs said:
    Aren't there usually exemptions for small enough businesses with low enough revenue?
    I know there have always been such protections in Ohio.
    Sadly, not in California.

    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 

    Unfortunately, a lot of students and retired people are working to survive, not to get out of the house a little, and it just isn't fair that their labour is valued less than other adults. The "starving student" isn't just a myth. Way back when I was in university, I had a job all the way through, so that I could afford to eat on top of tuition and rent and books and everything else. Costs are higher now, even more students are struggling, and we have seniors who can't afford to retire. If there are seniors out there who are only working to have something to do, then they can volunteer. 
    Why does it have to be black or white.  Why can there not be exceptions?   A lot of students would be happy to make a few bucks while still living at home and not being self supportive and a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness- or maybe they just need that little extra money to get by and no one will hire them except for bookstores like our- but only if we can afford to do so.  Please consider what I am saying here.  You did not address either of those.

    How can legislation be enacted that would allow for differences in pay depending on what you're suggesting? How can one enact legislation that says this senior citizen doesn't really need to work but that one does? How do you separate this 17 year old who lives in a middle class family and just wants a bit of money for flashy sneakers from that one who was kicked out, or left home because of abuse, and needs to work to live? I can't see any practical or fair way to do that. 

    Yes, I did address the issue of "a lot of older folks who have enough money to live on comfortably like having part-time work because it gives them a sense of accomplishment and contributing as well as to combat loneliness or idleness" - those are the people that can have those needs and more met by volunteering, which surely would give a greater sense of contribution and accomplishment because it would be directly helping others, or a cause important to them. 
    I agree, making those differences would be difficult. But I do think it could be done.  Much more difficult and complex issues are dealt with by the IRS, for example.  

    As for the elderly- what about the retired person who would benefit from having a 10 hour a week job making $10 or $12 an hour- giving her or him those couple extra hundred dollars that would make the difference between eating oatmeal for breakfast every day or maybe being able to have eggs and an English muffin once in a while?  Or keeping the thermostat at 66 degrees Fahrenheit in the winter instead of 62?  There are a lot of elderly on fixed incomes who have a tough time getting by on social security- many of them need that extra couple of hundred dollars a month to get by.  Who is going to help them with that?  Not many.  But I've seen it done where I work. 

    And what about the small businesses on Main Street that cannot afford to pay every retail or service employee $15 an hour.  Do we really want them to all just shut down, thus eroding an already weakened sense of community in many places?

    And then there is the issue of proximity.  At $15 an hour, most people where I live (El Dorado County, Calif.) can get by OK, but just.  Almost anywhere in the Bay Area a couple hours away, next to impossible.

    So my proposal would be to set minimum wage based on county location, and draw up a basic plan for exemptions to minimum wage based on reasonable factors as I've outlined. 
    Brian, a year ago Ontario increased the minimum to 14/hr, it was about a 2.60 increase, all at one time.  I am telling you this, the only people who gave a damn what small business said, were other small business owners.  And it did increase the price of most everything.  Another thing about minimum wage, if you increase minimum, then those living on fixed pensions need an increase and that never happens.


    Good point.  That's why, when people mention "retirement" I say, bullshit!  No way am I ever going to retire (except when my body retires permanently).
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong... wrong,
    Wrong wrong wrong."
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,909
    edited March 11
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,306
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    I am only talking about the minimum wage.  I do not see the problem letting Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal or Vancouver as examples for setting a higher minimum wage. There is no way 14/15 an hour is sufficient for a single person in Toronto or Vancouver...and it's only getting less affordable...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,909
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    I am only talking about the minimum wage.  I do not see the problem letting Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal or Vancouver as examples for setting a higher minimum wage. There is no way 14/15 an hour is sufficient for a single person in Toronto or Vancouver...and it's only getting less affordable...
    I was addressing Brian's comment directly. There shouldn't be different wage levels depending on "status" (student/part time vs non-student/full time). I totally agree that minimum wages should be determined regionally, not provincially, and they should all be based on a nationally set formula that is updated annually and takes into consideration the regional cost of living.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,661
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    That isn't uncommon in the private world. Many companies require you to keep your salary private from your coworkers, just for that reason. They don't want you to realize they paying someone else 10% more for the exact same job.
    But I think there is a good point there. One of my biggest reasons against having a livable wage is not everyone needs a livable wage. The high school or college student doesn't need a livable wage, and honestly most don't deserve one. Working for $8 at your first job in fast food is perfectly fine. But on the other hand, like you said, if a company can just hire students for half the cost, then that might be all that some jobs hire. There could be a limit of student-adult-senior ratio but that sounds messy and could probably get complicated.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,909
    edited March 11
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    That isn't uncommon in the private world. Many companies require you to keep your salary private from your coworkers, just for that reason. They don't want you to realize they paying someone else 10% more for the exact same job.
    But I think there is a good point there. One of my biggest reasons against having a livable wage is not everyone needs a livable wage. The high school or college student doesn't need a livable wage, and honestly most don't deserve one. Working for $8 at your first job in fast food is perfectly fine. But on the other hand, like you said, if a company can just hire students for half the cost, then that might be all that some jobs hire. There could be a limit of student-adult-senior ratio but that sounds messy and could probably get complicated.
    How do you figure a college student doesn't need a livable wage?? They need to live AND pay tuition.... Do you think they should be forced to take out student loans because they can't get paid as much as anyone else their age not in college? And how would anyone doing the same work not deserve the same pay? I understand what you are saying here, but logically, it just doesn't make sense. You pay fairly for the work being done. Period. It is not the employers' business how their workers spend their money, be it on candy or books or concerts or booze or rent.
    And FWIW, those fast food jobs look like they SUCK, and I think people should be paid reasonably well for work that SUCKS. Why do people think that people should be paid less when the job is so shitty, most people wouldn't be caught dead doing it? Like, why is "ditch digger" always used as a low paying job example? IMO, ditch diggers should get paid a lot. That is hard manual labour outside in the elements. That is way harder than sitting inside at a desk. Yes, extensive education requirements should increase salary, but those shitty labour jobs and those jobs where the poor workers have to deal with the fucking public all day should NOT be considered for bottom of the barrel wages. That just seems illogical to me... and immoral.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 3,661
    edited March 11
    PJ_Soul said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    That isn't uncommon in the private world. Many companies require you to keep your salary private from your coworkers, just for that reason. They don't want you to realize they paying someone else 10% more for the exact same job.
    But I think there is a good point there. One of my biggest reasons against having a livable wage is not everyone needs a livable wage. The high school or college student doesn't need a livable wage, and honestly most don't deserve one. Working for $8 at your first job in fast food is perfectly fine. But on the other hand, like you said, if a company can just hire students for half the cost, then that might be all that some jobs hire. There could be a limit of student-adult-senior ratio but that sounds messy and could probably get complicated.
    How do you figure a college student doesn't need a livable wage?? They need to live AND pay tuition.... Do you think they should be forced to take out student loans because they can't get paid as much as anyone else their age not in college? And how would anyone doing the same work not deserve the same pay? I understand what you are saying here, but logically, it just doesn't make sense. You pay fairly for the work being done. Period. It is not the employers' business how their workers spend their money, be it on candy or books or concerts or booze or rent.
    And FWIW, those fast food jobs look like they SUCK, and I think people should be paid reasonably well for work that SUCKS. Why do people think that people should be paid less when the job is so shitty, most people wouldn't be caught dead doing it? Like, why is "ditch digger" always used as a low paying job example? IMO, ditch diggers should get paid a lot. That is hard manual labour outside in the elements. That is way harder than sitting inside at a desk. Yes, extensive education requirements should increase salary, but those shitty labour jobs and those jobs where the poor workers have to deal with the fucking public all day should NOT be considered for bottom of the barrel wages. That just seems illogical to me... and immoral.
    Being compared to a mom of 3 kids, no the college student doesn't need the same wage.
    The bolded part goes against all reasoning for minimum wage I've heard, and honestly I completely agree with it. However, it is a right/conservative viewpoint. Someone who is skilled and educated enough to only mop floors at McDonald's, logically doesn't make sense to pay them more than a fair market for that job. Paying that person above what the skill requires doesn't make any sense, but minimum wage would say we have to (assuming we base minimum wage on what a person needs to earn in order to support a family).
    That is the biggest hole in the "living wage" argument. Someone doing the same work does deserve the same pay. But a living wage for a college student is going to be completely different than what a living wage is from a high school  kid or single mom. So who's living wage do we base it on? If we base it on the mom then we are overpaying many others. If we don't, then she struggles more.

    For your second bolded comment, it is because of level of skill and education required. It has nothing to do with how much a job sucks. Some very well paying jobs are also very fun and rewarding, but they also require a rare skill or talent. Mopping floors at fast food doesn't.  A well-disciplined 3rd grader could do that. And so the job pays accordingly. But you;re right, I wouldn't be caught dead working there. One of the best jobs I've ever see was a food tester for Breyers ice cream. He selects a random half gallon from every batch and eats it. I'm sure many people would be willing to do that job for minimum wage, but he is specially trained and has a talent to know where the ice cream wasn't properly mixed or not prepared correctly. He also tests new flavors to give his "Expert" opinion. If he;s wrong about a flavor the company can lose million in production. I'm sure he loves his job, and he probably makes millions doing it. How horrible a job is has never been related to the pay. And honestly shouldn't be, it should be related to the skill and education requirements of the job, not how much you hate it.
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,909
    edited March 11
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mace1229 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    That isn't uncommon in the private world. Many companies require you to keep your salary private from your coworkers, just for that reason. They don't want you to realize they paying someone else 10% more for the exact same job.
    But I think there is a good point there. One of my biggest reasons against having a livable wage is not everyone needs a livable wage. The high school or college student doesn't need a livable wage, and honestly most don't deserve one. Working for $8 at your first job in fast food is perfectly fine. But on the other hand, like you said, if a company can just hire students for half the cost, then that might be all that some jobs hire. There could be a limit of student-adult-senior ratio but that sounds messy and could probably get complicated.
    How do you figure a college student doesn't need a livable wage?? They need to live AND pay tuition.... Do you think they should be forced to take out student loans because they can't get paid as much as anyone else their age not in college? And how would anyone doing the same work not deserve the same pay? I understand what you are saying here, but logically, it just doesn't make sense. You pay fairly for the work being done. Period. It is not the employers' business how their workers spend their money, be it on candy or books or concerts or booze or rent.
    And FWIW, those fast food jobs look like they SUCK, and I think people should be paid reasonably well for work that SUCKS. Why do people think that people should be paid less when the job is so shitty, most people wouldn't be caught dead doing it? Like, why is "ditch digger" always used as a low paying job example? IMO, ditch diggers should get paid a lot. That is hard manual labour outside in the elements. That is way harder than sitting inside at a desk. Yes, extensive education requirements should increase salary, but those shitty labour jobs and those jobs where the poor workers have to deal with the fucking public all day should NOT be considered for bottom of the barrel wages. That just seems illogical to me... and immoral.
    Being compared to a mom of 3 kids, no the college student doesn't need the same wage.
    The bolded part goes against all reasoning for minimum wage I've heard, and honestly I completely agree with it. However, it is a right/conservative viewpoint. Someone who is skilled and educated enough to only mop floors at McDonald's, logically doesn't make sense to pay them more than a fair market for that job. Paying that person above what the skill requires doesn't make any sense, but minimum wage would say we have to (assuming we base minimum wage on what a person needs to earn in order to support a family).
    That is the biggest hole in the "living wage" argument. Someone doing the same work does deserve the same pay. But a living wage for a college student is going to be completely different than what a living wage is from a high school  kid or single mom. So who's living wage do we base it on? If we base it on the mom then we are overpaying many others. If we don't, then she struggles more.

    For your second bolded comment, it is because of level of skill and education required. It has nothing to do with how much a job sucks. Some very well paying jobs are also very fun and rewarding, but they also require a rare skill or talent. Mopping floors at fast food doesn't.  A well-disciplined 3rd grader could do that. And so the job pays accordingly. But you;re right, I wouldn't be caught dead working there.
    It shouldn't be the employer's business or problem if it's a mom with 3 kids or a college kid, that's my point (that's what child benefits and shit like that should be taking care of IMO - yes, social welfare. I'm all for it). Pay fairly for the work being done, period. IMO. And I am not at all suggesting that someone mopping floors should be paid more that a fair market for that job. I'm saying that the fair market is grossly underpaying for that type of work. I.e. the minimum wage is way too low considering the labour being invested by the workers as well as the bare minimum required in terms of cost of living for the individual working. No, someone shouldn't get paid more just because they are a parent, obviously. Has anyone ever suggested that parents should get paid more for the same work? That would be outrageous. We base it on the cost of living for one person, and hope that the government is well-organized and structured and enlightened enough to make having children affordable under those circumstances (while of course expecting citizens to have jobs that pay well enough to take care of kids after taking any child benefits from the government into account - Probably schools should do a better job of teaching people that you shouldn't have any kids until you can actually manage to afford them, encouraging anyone who wants kids to work hard to obtain the skills and education that will get them high enough salaries to cover their kids). People who choose not to have kids have every right to spend that money that would go to children on anything else they feel like spending it on.  
    I did address the level of skill/education. Obviously people with higher skills requiring education should get paid more, and they do. I'm talking about the manual labour and other lowest paid jobs (i.e. minimum wage jobs). I'm not proposing that we should all be communist, and all people should earn the same amount no matter what they do. Though I do think there are certain labour jobs that should be paid much more just because of the physical demands and danger. I'm a big believer in danger pay, and that should be stretched to include work that threatens the physical health of a person's body, including inevitable wear and tear that will shorten manual labour careers, which is the case for some heavy manual labour jobs... including ditch digging.


    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,805
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    No, I'm talking about small business- different work/ different money.  You're not going to see people cleaning books or sweeping floors getting paid the same as people handling accounts or researching rare books.  And your not going to get a bunch of people willing to work part-time doing the more difficult tasks at a lower wage.  I stand by my proposal. 
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong... wrong,
    Wrong wrong wrong."
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,909
    edited March 12
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    No, I'm talking about small business- different work/ different money.  You're not going to see people cleaning books or sweeping floors getting paid the same as people handling accounts or researching rare books.  And your not going to get a bunch of people willing to work part-time doing the more difficult tasks at a lower wage.  I stand by my proposal. 
    My opinion doesn't change for small businesses on this at all, as I was not suggesting that people doing different work get paid the same. I'm saying in all cases, those doing the same work need to be paid the same. I do believe in only ONE minimum wage though (based on regional cost of living, ideally). I very much hope that someone researching rare books or handling accounts isn't getting paid minimum wage in any case.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,805
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    brianlux said:
    The minimum wage thing is a little fucked up.  In Ontario, it is 14/hour ... no problem with that, except, a report was released that in my area 14/hour is considered a living wage.  How the fuck is 14 a living wage in Toronto?  I think the provinces need to allow large cities to decide minimum wage.
    That's where the minimum wage concept is screwed up.  It doesn't take into account cost of living in differing areas.  There should also be exceptions for students who want a part-time job to get a little cash going or retired people who just want something to do and not be alone all the time.  We have both kinds of employees at my wife's bookstore and if minimum wages go to have, we will not be able to afford to keep them on.  Small business is a struggle as it is.  $15 minimum wage in many areas will hurt small businesses and would be unfair to those students and elderly. 
    I think paying people differently like that would be a huge mistake. People doing the same work, but with some of them doing it for way less money??? Nope. That can't work. Companies would just totally fill their rosters with part time student workers then, leaving those who need a living wage without jobs.
    No, I'm talking about small business- different work/ different money.  You're not going to see people cleaning books or sweeping floors getting paid the same as people handling accounts or researching rare books.  And your not going to get a bunch of people willing to work part-time doing the more difficult tasks at a lower wage.  I stand by my proposal. 
    My opinion doesn't change for small businesses on this at all, as I was not suggesting that people doing different work get paid the same. I'm saying in all cases, those doing the same work need to be paid the same. I do believe in only ONE minimum wage though (based on regional cost of living, ideally). I very much hope that someone researching rare books or handling accounts isn't getting paid minimum wage in any case.
    :lol:

    I'm sorry, I'm laughing at me.  Other than working, say, for a University library, it really is that way for the majority of book people.  Maybe not minimum pay, but not much more than.   Generally speaking, this is work people do because they love it not for the money.   That's the trade off- love of what one does instead of doing something more lucrative.  And it's a choice.  I made that choice so there's no grounds for complaint and I bear no animosity toward my friends who do other work and make much more money.  And when you have your own book business, you do it all, research rare books, handle accounts, shelve books, clean books, take out the trash and clean the puke off the sidewalk that some drunk left in front of the store the night before (that's how our day started today).

    I agree about equal pay for equal work.  And I damn well agree with equal pay for equal work for both genders.  And, in fact, that subject is strongly on my mind having just seen (and I mean JUST), "The Battle of the Sexes", a MUST SEE movie.  And the DVD has extras with the real Billie Jean King.  I love that lady.

    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong... wrong,
    Wrong wrong wrong."
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,832
    https://www.housingwire.com/articles/42185-us-bank-becomes-latest-bank-to-increase-wages-hand-out-bonuses-after-tax-reform
    CEO just stated that Bank of America will raise minimum wage to $ 20 an hr for starting jobs by 2021 ..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 1,522
    edited April 9

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Post edited by Lerxst1992 on
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,800

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    hippiemom = goodness
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,690

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    Yup, I'll take a computer system which performs automated, repeatable tasks in exactly the same way each and every time vs a system reliant on human perfection (which doesn't exist). Humans make constant mistakes with repeating tasks, which is why automation is almost always preferable for those tasks. Now I understand people perhaps wanting some human interaction when they're shopping (I'm not one of them), but I don't understand the preference of having a pimply 16 year old kid trying to get my order right and often failing, vs personally punching some buttons on a kiosk and knowing that my order was entered properly. Now if they could automate the cooking and bagging of that order we'd be good to go.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,909
    edited April 9
    jeffbr said:

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    Yup, I'll take a computer system which performs automated, repeatable tasks in exactly the same way each and every time vs a system reliant on human perfection (which doesn't exist). Humans make constant mistakes with repeating tasks, which is why automation is almost always preferable for those tasks. Now I understand people perhaps wanting some human interaction when they're shopping (I'm not one of them), but I don't understand the preference of having a pimply 16 year old kid trying to get my order right and often failing, vs personally punching some buttons on a kiosk and knowing that my order was entered properly. Now if they could automate the cooking and bagging of that order we'd be good to go.
    If they set up an economy that properly supports people who can't find jobs, I will feel exactly the same as you. I would love it if everything that can be automated was automated. It is so much easier and more reliable and more efficient (man, especially if we're talking food preparation! Consistency with that is a hug problem) .... But we don't want to put the cart ahead of the horse.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,690
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    Yup, I'll take a computer system which performs automated, repeatable tasks in exactly the same way each and every time vs a system reliant on human perfection (which doesn't exist). Humans make constant mistakes with repeating tasks, which is why automation is almost always preferable for those tasks. Now I understand people perhaps wanting some human interaction when they're shopping (I'm not one of them), but I don't understand the preference of having a pimply 16 year old kid trying to get my order right and often failing, vs personally punching some buttons on a kiosk and knowing that my order was entered properly. Now if they could automate the cooking and bagging of that order we'd be good to go.
    If they set up an economy that properly supports people who can't find jobs, I will feel exactly the same as you. I would love it if everything that can be automated was automated. It is so much easier and more reliable and more efficient (man, especially if we're talking food preparation! Consistency with that is a hug problem) .... But we don't want to put the cart ahead of the horse.
    I agree with you. My point is that automation - logic based with repeatable results, will always be superior to humans in doing repetitive tasks. As you mention, there are plenty of ethical and philisophical issues to work through, as well as real life impact on low-skill, entry-level workers that need to be considered. I was just reacting to the notion that automation should be eschewed as unreliable. If automation is unreliable, that is due to the unreliable human who created the logic for the machine, not the machine itself.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,909
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    Yup, I'll take a computer system which performs automated, repeatable tasks in exactly the same way each and every time vs a system reliant on human perfection (which doesn't exist). Humans make constant mistakes with repeating tasks, which is why automation is almost always preferable for those tasks. Now I understand people perhaps wanting some human interaction when they're shopping (I'm not one of them), but I don't understand the preference of having a pimply 16 year old kid trying to get my order right and often failing, vs personally punching some buttons on a kiosk and knowing that my order was entered properly. Now if they could automate the cooking and bagging of that order we'd be good to go.
    If they set up an economy that properly supports people who can't find jobs, I will feel exactly the same as you. I would love it if everything that can be automated was automated. It is so much easier and more reliable and more efficient (man, especially if we're talking food preparation! Consistency with that is a hug problem) .... But we don't want to put the cart ahead of the horse.
    I agree with you. My point is that automation - logic based with repeatable results, will always be superior to humans in doing repetitive tasks. As you mention, there are plenty of ethical and philisophical issues to work through, as well as real life impact on low-skill, entry-level workers that need to be considered. I was just reacting to the notion that automation should be eschewed as unreliable. If automation is unreliable, that is due to the unreliable human who created the logic for the machine, not the machine itself.
    Agreed.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 1,522
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    Yup, I'll take a computer system which performs automated, repeatable tasks in exactly the same way each and every time vs a system reliant on human perfection (which doesn't exist). Humans make constant mistakes with repeating tasks, which is why automation is almost always preferable for those tasks. Now I understand people perhaps wanting some human interaction when they're shopping (I'm not one of them), but I don't understand the preference of having a pimply 16 year old kid trying to get my order right and often failing, vs personally punching some buttons on a kiosk and knowing that my order was entered properly. Now if they could automate the cooking and bagging of that order we'd be good to go.
    If they set up an economy that properly supports people who can't find jobs, I will feel exactly the same as you. I would love it if everything that can be automated was automated. It is so much easier and more reliable and more efficient (man, especially if we're talking food preparation! Consistency with that is a hug problem) .... But we don't want to put the cart ahead of the horse.
    I agree with you. My point is that automation - logic based with repeatable results, will always be superior to humans in doing repetitive tasks. As you mention, there are plenty of ethical and philisophical issues to work through, as well as real life impact on low-skill, entry-level workers that need to be considered. I was just reacting to the notion that automation should be eschewed as unreliable. If automation is unreliable, that is due to the unreliable human who created the logic for the machine, not the machine itself.


    Self service kiosks at fast food  restaurants break all the time, and repairs don't get made timely. Execs at my company "could think of no reason" why we shouldn't upgrade to office 365, except they didn't know  Microsoft made the new software so advanced with so many new features none of us use, it crashes all the time because our network is unreliable in many regions

    Execs above the glass ceiling make decisions every day to go all in on new tech, without practical experience or putting in place the proper controls to ensure it works at least as well as the old processes, or having a plan to fix one the inevitable problems occur
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,690
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    Yup, I'll take a computer system which performs automated, repeatable tasks in exactly the same way each and every time vs a system reliant on human perfection (which doesn't exist). Humans make constant mistakes with repeating tasks, which is why automation is almost always preferable for those tasks. Now I understand people perhaps wanting some human interaction when they're shopping (I'm not one of them), but I don't understand the preference of having a pimply 16 year old kid trying to get my order right and often failing, vs personally punching some buttons on a kiosk and knowing that my order was entered properly. Now if they could automate the cooking and bagging of that order we'd be good to go.
    If they set up an economy that properly supports people who can't find jobs, I will feel exactly the same as you. I would love it if everything that can be automated was automated. It is so much easier and more reliable and more efficient (man, especially if we're talking food preparation! Consistency with that is a hug problem) .... But we don't want to put the cart ahead of the horse.
    I agree with you. My point is that automation - logic based with repeatable results, will always be superior to humans in doing repetitive tasks. As you mention, there are plenty of ethical and philisophical issues to work through, as well as real life impact on low-skill, entry-level workers that need to be considered. I was just reacting to the notion that automation should be eschewed as unreliable. If automation is unreliable, that is due to the unreliable human who created the logic for the machine, not the machine itself.


    Self service kiosks at fast food  restaurants break all the time, and repairs don't get made timely. Execs at my company "could think of no reason" why we shouldn't upgrade to office 365, except they didn't know  Microsoft made the new software so advanced with so many new features none of us use, it crashes all the time because our network is unreliable in many regions

    Execs above the glass ceiling make decisions every day to go all in on new tech, without practical experience or putting in place the proper controls to ensure it works at least as well as the old processes, or having a plan to fix one the inevitable problems occur
    Ah, ok. Well I won't argue any of that, since we're back to human fallibility. Improper planning, funding, training, design, execution, roll-out, adoption, maintenance will all result in a poorly automated system. All of those things reflect badly on the human element involved, rather than the automation itself. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,909
    edited April 10
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    Yup, I'll take a computer system which performs automated, repeatable tasks in exactly the same way each and every time vs a system reliant on human perfection (which doesn't exist). Humans make constant mistakes with repeating tasks, which is why automation is almost always preferable for those tasks. Now I understand people perhaps wanting some human interaction when they're shopping (I'm not one of them), but I don't understand the preference of having a pimply 16 year old kid trying to get my order right and often failing, vs personally punching some buttons on a kiosk and knowing that my order was entered properly. Now if they could automate the cooking and bagging of that order we'd be good to go.
    If they set up an economy that properly supports people who can't find jobs, I will feel exactly the same as you. I would love it if everything that can be automated was automated. It is so much easier and more reliable and more efficient (man, especially if we're talking food preparation! Consistency with that is a hug problem) .... But we don't want to put the cart ahead of the horse.
    I agree with you. My point is that automation - logic based with repeatable results, will always be superior to humans in doing repetitive tasks. As you mention, there are plenty of ethical and philisophical issues to work through, as well as real life impact on low-skill, entry-level workers that need to be considered. I was just reacting to the notion that automation should be eschewed as unreliable. If automation is unreliable, that is due to the unreliable human who created the logic for the machine, not the machine itself.


    Self service kiosks at fast food  restaurants break all the time, and repairs don't get made timely. Execs at my company "could think of no reason" why we shouldn't upgrade to office 365, except they didn't know  Microsoft made the new software so advanced with so many new features none of us use, it crashes all the time because our network is unreliable in many regions

    Execs above the glass ceiling make decisions every day to go all in on new tech, without practical experience or putting in place the proper controls to ensure it works at least as well as the old processes, or having a plan to fix one the inevitable problems occur
    With all that said, automation is widely used and works a hell of a lot more often than not. Bad planning on the part of people doesn't make the technology any worse. I mean, your comment almost supports automation - you described people making stupid decisions that don't work for them. 
    FWIW, I work in an office that is high tech (online education), and we know what we're doing. We get technology that works for us, and we have IT experts who know whether or not new software or hardware is viable in our work place before it's purchased. And when new platforms are implemented across the office, a clear transition plan is devised, and everyone gets training.
    Also, even when self-serve technology breaks down, that is still way cheaper than paying employees and for their benefits, and for the managers. Again, while I do love technology in many way in the work place, I don't support actual human replacement by it until the economy is reworked to keep everyone supported. Right now, technology is best used to HELP workers do their jobs better, and it definitely does that... unless people who don't know wtf they're doing are in charge.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 1,522
    jeffbr said:
    jeffbr said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    jeffbr said:

    Who didnt see this coming? This is what happens when government intervenes in the market. I guess we can just pay them all a living wage until we run out of everyone's money.


    "As minimum wage levels approach or surpass $15 nationwide, restaurant customers expecting to be greeted by a smiling face will instead be welcomed by a glowing LED screen.

    As of 2020, self-service ordering kiosks will be implemented at all U.S. McDonald’s locations. Other chains, including fast-casual brands like Panera and casual-dining brands like Chili's, have already embraced this trend. Some restaurant concepts have even automated the food-preparation process; earlier this year, NBC News profiled "Flippy," a robot hamburger flipper. "


    http://https//www.forbes.com/sites/edrensi/2018/07/11/mcdonalds-says-goodbye-cashiers-hello-kiosks/#14e24b436f14


    My experiences at Panera, Chilies and McDs is the kiosks supplement, not replace workers. And in many cases they are absurdly unreliable.

    My experience is businesses are often willing to invest in automation or new technology, even if it is obvious (to me as an employee) the new technology is far from ready for commercial use.  

    Minimum wage should have been linked to inflation for the last few decades. The federal $7.50 an hour is absurd. To assume minimum wage workers have a strong enough market strength to pressure wealthy industries to move "free" market pay is unrealistic.


    Edit, 

    And of course, if I walk into a business and there is no human to ask a question, I have the freedom to never return to that business again.

    I am often offended by a business that expects me to do their job, entering my order into a computer. So good luck with that fortune 500.
    Hahahaha if you find kiosks unreliable how do you find the people working at those places? My order is always right on a screen...never right in the bag. Idiots.


    Yup, I'll take a computer system which performs automated, repeatable tasks in exactly the same way each and every time vs a system reliant on human perfection (which doesn't exist). Humans make constant mistakes with repeating tasks, which is why automation is almost always preferable for those tasks. Now I understand people perhaps wanting some human interaction when they're shopping (I'm not one of them), but I don't understand the preference of having a pimply 16 year old kid trying to get my order right and often failing, vs personally punching some buttons on a kiosk and knowing that my order was entered properly. Now if they could automate the cooking and bagging of that order we'd be good to go.
    If they set up an economy that properly supports people who can't find jobs, I will feel exactly the same as you. I would love it if everything that can be automated was automated. It is so much easier and more reliable and more efficient (man, especially if we're talking food preparation! Consistency with that is a hug problem) .... But we don't want to put the cart ahead of the horse.
    I agree with you. My point is that automation - logic based with repeatable results, will always be superior to humans in doing repetitive tasks. As you mention, there are plenty of ethical and philisophical issues to work through, as well as real life impact on low-skill, entry-level workers that need to be considered. I was just reacting to the notion that automation should be eschewed as unreliable. If automation is unreliable, that is due to the unreliable human who created the logic for the machine, not the machine itself.


    Self service kiosks at fast food  restaurants break all the time, and repairs don't get made timely. Execs at my company "could think of no reason" why we shouldn't upgrade to office 365, except they didn't know  Microsoft made the new software so advanced with so many new features none of us use, it crashes all the time because our network is unreliable in many regions

    Execs above the glass ceiling make decisions every day to go all in on new tech, without practical experience or putting in place the proper controls to ensure it works at least as well as the old processes, or having a plan to fix one the inevitable problems occur
    Ah, ok. Well I won't argue any of that, since we're back to human fallibility. Improper planning, funding, training, design, execution, roll-out, adoption, maintenance will all result in a poorly automated system. All of those things reflect badly on the human element involved, rather than the automation itself. 


    I'd point out that certain enterprises, like Microsoft, where many of their products  are effectively monopoloies, create an environment where they constantly drag the cart before the horse, thereby creating a product that might make them feel good as an entity, however does little to satisfy it's captive market. I couldn't possibly put into words here what a horror show 365 is, and it's many years old.

    Funny thing is, the old system worked fine.

    Funnier thing is, the workaround that was created to fix is even worse than the original set of problems.
Sign In or Register to comment.