Amazon HQ2 and other news

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,906
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    my2hands said:
    I've flipped on this...

    Fuck Amazon and the rest of these corporate welfare bloodsuckers
    No one made the state offer tax breaks.  
    In order to be competitive they have to, that's the problem. Corporations like these have governments by the balls, that's terrible for the taxpayer.

    Getting governments to slit their own throats to undercut other governments. I don't blame Amazon for being immoral here and not paying their fair share. Most large companies do this. It's the governments fault for letting it get to this. At some point they all need to stand up to these corporations.

    And also, Amazon has a terrible track record with how they treat their employees who work in their warehouses. So fuck them for that too.


    Virginia only offered 500 million in incentives.  Considering 25000 jobs at an average of 150k per year,  it won't take the state long to be on the plus side of that equation, between 2 and 3 years only calculating state income tax,  not even considering the economic growth the 25k people will create.  It's an easy decision. 
    Where are you getting the $150K average salary from?
    That was the guarantee from Amazon for Virginia and NYC.  I believe Tennessee too. These were good jobs. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,906
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    my2hands said:
    I've flipped on this...

    Fuck Amazon and the rest of these corporate welfare bloodsuckers
    No one made the state offer tax breaks.  
    In order to be competitive they have to, that's the problem. Corporations like these have governments by the balls, that's terrible for the taxpayer.

    Getting governments to slit their own throats to undercut other governments. I don't blame Amazon for being immoral here and not paying their fair share. Most large companies do this. It's the governments fault for letting it get to this. At some point they all need to stand up to these corporations.

    And also, Amazon has a terrible track record with how they treat their employees who work in their warehouses. So fuck them for that too.


    Virginia only offered 500 million in incentives.  Considering 25000 jobs at an average of 150k per year,  it won't take the state long to be on the plus side of that equation, between 2 and 3 years only calculating state income tax,  not even considering the economic growth the 25k people will create.  It's an easy decision. 
    Where are you getting the $150K average salary from?
    That was the guarantee from Amazon for Virginia and NYC.  I believe Tennessee too. These were good jobs. 
    Admin assistants aren’t making $150K and I find that to be a high average. Good jobs, sure but $150K in NYC, even LIC isn’t great with cost of living. I don’t know about $3BB in tax breaks/credits really makes it worth it when the infrastructure can’t handle the 25,000 influx. Did NY or any of the other locations release impact studies?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    my2hands said:
    I've flipped on this...

    Fuck Amazon and the rest of these corporate welfare bloodsuckers
    No one made the state offer tax breaks.  
    In order to be competitive they have to, that's the problem. Corporations like these have governments by the balls, that's terrible for the taxpayer.

    Getting governments to slit their own throats to undercut other governments. I don't blame Amazon for being immoral here and not paying their fair share. Most large companies do this. It's the governments fault for letting it get to this. At some point they all need to stand up to these corporations.

    And also, Amazon has a terrible track record with how they treat their employees who work in their warehouses. So fuck them for that too.


    Virginia only offered 500 million in incentives.  Considering 25000 jobs at an average of 150k per year,  it won't take the state long to be on the plus side of that equation, between 2 and 3 years only calculating state income tax,  not even considering the economic growth the 25k people will create.  It's an easy decision. 
    Where are you getting the $150K average salary from?
    That was the guarantee from Amazon for Virginia and NYC.  I believe Tennessee too. These were good jobs. 
    Admin assistants aren’t making $150K and I find that to be a high average. Good jobs, sure but $150K in NYC, even LIC isn’t great with cost of living. I don’t know about $3BB in tax breaks/credits really makes it worth it when the infrastructure can’t handle the 25,000 influx. Did NY or any of the other locations release impact studies?
    It's an average.  As I pointed our earlier,  I can understand why NYC might have rent,  displacement and other issues based on the influx of this many high paying jobs.  But it also generates enormous ancillary economic activity.  It's why I'm completely astounded by Aocs celebration of 25k jobs exiting the city.  Makes no sense.  Virginia is still pleased with the deal. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,790
    edited February 15
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    my2hands said:
    I've flipped on this...

    Fuck Amazon and the rest of these corporate welfare bloodsuckers
    No one made the state offer tax breaks.  
    In order to be competitive they have to, that's the problem. Corporations like these have governments by the balls, that's terrible for the taxpayer.

    Getting governments to slit their own throats to undercut other governments. I don't blame Amazon for being immoral here and not paying their fair share. Most large companies do this. It's the governments fault for letting it get to this. At some point they all need to stand up to these corporations.

    And also, Amazon has a terrible track record with how they treat their employees who work in their warehouses. So fuck them for that too.


    Virginia only offered 500 million in incentives.  Considering 25000 jobs at an average of 150k per year,  it won't take the state long to be on the plus side of that equation, between 2 and 3 years only calculating state income tax,  not even considering the economic growth the 25k people will create.  It's an easy decision. 
    Where are you getting the $150K average salary from?
    That was the guarantee from Amazon for Virginia and NYC.  I believe Tennessee too. These were good jobs. 
    Admin assistants aren’t making $150K and I find that to be a high average. Good jobs, sure but $150K in NYC, even LIC isn’t great with cost of living. I don’t know about $3BB in tax breaks/credits really makes it worth it when the infrastructure can’t handle the 25,000 influx. Did NY or any of the other locations release impact studies?
    It's an average.  As I pointed our earlier,  I can understand why NYC might have rent,  displacement and other issues based on the influx of this many high paying jobs.  But it also generates enormous ancillary economic activity.  It's why I'm completely astounded by Aocs celebration of 25k jobs exiting the city.  Makes no sense.  Virginia is still pleased with the deal. 
    Using an average salary for a company like this isn't the greatest method. Remember that the multi-million dollar salaries of the big cheeses and the big 6-figure ones are included in that number and REALLY jacking up that number. That makes it so that the average isn't at all representative of what most employees earn.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,906
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    my2hands said:
    I've flipped on this...

    Fuck Amazon and the rest of these corporate welfare bloodsuckers
    No one made the state offer tax breaks.  
    In order to be competitive they have to, that's the problem. Corporations like these have governments by the balls, that's terrible for the taxpayer.

    Getting governments to slit their own throats to undercut other governments. I don't blame Amazon for being immoral here and not paying their fair share. Most large companies do this. It's the governments fault for letting it get to this. At some point they all need to stand up to these corporations.

    And also, Amazon has a terrible track record with how they treat their employees who work in their warehouses. So fuck them for that too.


    Virginia only offered 500 million in incentives.  Considering 25000 jobs at an average of 150k per year,  it won't take the state long to be on the plus side of that equation, between 2 and 3 years only calculating state income tax,  not even considering the economic growth the 25k people will create.  It's an easy decision. 
    Where are you getting the $150K average salary from?
    That was the guarantee from Amazon for Virginia and NYC.  I believe Tennessee too. These were good jobs. 
    Admin assistants aren’t making $150K and I find that to be a high average. Good jobs, sure but $150K in NYC, even LIC isn’t great with cost of living. I don’t know about $3BB in tax breaks/credits really makes it worth it when the infrastructure can’t handle the 25,000 influx. Did NY or any of the other locations release impact studies?
    It's an average.  As I pointed our earlier,  I can understand why NYC might have rent,  displacement and other issues based on the influx of this many high paying jobs.  But it also generates enormous ancillary economic activity.  It's why I'm completely astounded by Aocs celebration of 25k jobs exiting the city.  Makes no sense.  Virginia is still pleased with the deal. 
    Oh, I hear you but that 25K will stress school systems, lead to development, traffic congestion, and costs that are yet unknown. If they build in a former brownfield, I see benefits beyond salary, payroll taxes and the like. Build in open space with only a two lane road leading to and from and no available near by housing, not so much. Infrastructure is more than water, sewer, roads and public transit. It’s schools, hospitals, medical facilities, and businesses. Look at Silicon Valley and that “paradise.”
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 45,790
    edited February 15
    Agreed, development isn't always beneficial for the residents, that's for sure. AOC is clearly looking out for the best interests of her constituents (whether you think she's right or wrong in her views). She does have her solid reasons to be against it. It all depends on priorities... When $$$$$$$$$$$$$ isn't a top priority, capitalists can get bent out of shape.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    PJ_Soul said:
    Agreed, development isn't always beneficial for the residents, that's for sure. AOC is clearly looking out for the best interests of her constituents (whether you think she's right or wrong in her views). She does have her solid reasons to be against it. It all depends on priorities... When $$$$$$$$$$$$$ isn't a top priority, capitalists can get bent out of shape.
    She thinks she's looking out for them.  Whether she's right or not is debatable.  But she's pushing out jobs,  not just capitalism. 

    Your comment alluding to executive pay vs worker pay is speculative.  Of course there are going to be levels with pay grades,  but that doesn't mean there are 100 jobs at 10 million and 24900 at 20k. Doesn't work like that for white collar work.  

    Last,  you can bet your last dollar that Amazon analyzed the entire infrastructure situation and had agreements with the city.  It would be corporate planning dereliction of duty not to do so.  Complete amateur hour. 
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,906
    edited February 15
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Agreed, development isn't always beneficial for the residents, that's for sure. AOC is clearly looking out for the best interests of her constituents (whether you think she's right or wrong in her views). She does have her solid reasons to be against it. It all depends on priorities... When $$$$$$$$$$$$$ isn't a top priority, capitalists can get bent out of shape.
    She thinks she's looking out for them.  Whether she's right or not is debatable.  But she's pushing out jobs,  not just capitalism. 

    Your comment alluding to executive pay vs worker pay is speculative.  Of course there are going to be levels with pay grades,  but that doesn't mean there are 100 jobs at 10 million and 24900 at 20k. Doesn't work like that for white collar work.  

    Last,  you can bet your last dollar that Amazon analyzed the entire infrastructure situation and had agreements with the city.  It would be corporate planning dereliction of duty not to do so.  Complete amateur hour. 
    Well, if they did, they should be made public. This kind of wheeling and dealing needs to be more transparent with a public comment period. The tax payers and residents feel the impact long after the politicians go away. And if it’s all rainbows and unicorns, why isn’t more of the process transparent.
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Agreed, development isn't always beneficial for the residents, that's for sure. AOC is clearly looking out for the best interests of her constituents (whether you think she's right or wrong in her views). She does have her solid reasons to be against it. It all depends on priorities... When $$$$$$$$$$$$$ isn't a top priority, capitalists can get bent out of shape.
    She thinks she's looking out for them.  Whether she's right or not is debatable.  But she's pushing out jobs,  not just capitalism. 

    Your comment alluding to executive pay vs worker pay is speculative.  Of course there are going to be levels with pay grades,  but that doesn't mean there are 100 jobs at 10 million and 24900 at 20k. Doesn't work like that for white collar work.  

    Last,  you can bet your last dollar that Amazon analyzed the entire infrastructure situation and had agreements with the city.  It would be corporate planning dereliction of duty not to do so.  Complete amateur hour. 
    Well, if they did, they should be made public. This kind of wheeling and dealing needs to be more transparent with a public comment period. The tax payers and residents feel the impact long after the politicians go away. And if it’s all rainbows and unicorns, why isn’t more of the process transparent.
    I have no clue. But im sure negotiations could have worked through the concerns. Instead,  the jobs are gone.  Hooray. 
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,580
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mrussel1 said:
    my2hands said:
    I've flipped on this...

    Fuck Amazon and the rest of these corporate welfare bloodsuckers
    No one made the state offer tax breaks.  
    In order to be competitive they have to, that's the problem. Corporations like these have governments by the balls, that's terrible for the taxpayer.

    Getting governments to slit their own throats to undercut other governments. I don't blame Amazon for being immoral here and not paying their fair share. Most large companies do this. It's the governments fault for letting it get to this. At some point they all need to stand up to these corporations.

    And also, Amazon has a terrible track record with how they treat their employees who work in their warehouses. So fuck them for that too.


    Virginia only offered 500 million in incentives.  Considering 25000 jobs at an average of 150k per year,  it won't take the state long to be on the plus side of that equation, between 2 and 3 years only calculating state income tax,  not even considering the economic growth the 25k people will create.  It's an easy decision. 
    Where are you getting the $150K average salary from?
    That was the guarantee from Amazon for Virginia and NYC.  I believe Tennessee too. These were good jobs. 
    Admin assistants aren’t making $150K and I find that to be a high average. Good jobs, sure but $150K in NYC, even LIC isn’t great with cost of living. I don’t know about $3BB in tax breaks/credits really makes it worth it when the infrastructure can’t handle the 25,000 influx. Did NY or any of the other locations release impact studies?
    It's an average.  As I pointed our earlier,  I can understand why NYC might have rent,  displacement and other issues based on the influx of this many high paying jobs.  But it also generates enormous ancillary economic activity.  It's why I'm completely astounded by Aocs celebration of 25k jobs exiting the city.  Makes no sense.  Virginia is still pleased with the deal. 
    Using an average salary for a company like this isn't the greatest method. Remember that the multi-million dollar salaries of the big cheeses and the big 6-figure ones are included in that number and REALLY jacking up that number. That makes it so that the average isn't at all representative of what most employees earn.
    No they said the average salary for the 25,000 new jobs.


    hippiemom = goodness
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 18,906
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Agreed, development isn't always beneficial for the residents, that's for sure. AOC is clearly looking out for the best interests of her constituents (whether you think she's right or wrong in her views). She does have her solid reasons to be against it. It all depends on priorities... When $$$$$$$$$$$$$ isn't a top priority, capitalists can get bent out of shape.
    She thinks she's looking out for them.  Whether she's right or not is debatable.  But she's pushing out jobs,  not just capitalism. 

    Your comment alluding to executive pay vs worker pay is speculative.  Of course there are going to be levels with pay grades,  but that doesn't mean there are 100 jobs at 10 million and 24900 at 20k. Doesn't work like that for white collar work.  

    Last,  you can bet your last dollar that Amazon analyzed the entire infrastructure situation and had agreements with the city.  It would be corporate planning dereliction of duty not to do so.  Complete amateur hour. 
    Well, if they did, they should be made public. This kind of wheeling and dealing needs to be more transparent with a public comment period. The tax payers and residents feel the impact long after the politicians go away. And if it’s all rainbows and unicorns, why isn’t more of the process transparent.
    I have no clue. But im sure negotiations could have worked through the concerns. Instead,  the jobs are gone.  Hooray. 
    Gone from NY. Let’s see where they land next and what the reality is after a year of full operation. Maybe get Michael Moore to do a documentary. 
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Agreed, development isn't always beneficial for the residents, that's for sure. AOC is clearly looking out for the best interests of her constituents (whether you think she's right or wrong in her views). She does have her solid reasons to be against it. It all depends on priorities... When $$$$$$$$$$$$$ isn't a top priority, capitalists can get bent out of shape.
    She thinks she's looking out for them.  Whether she's right or not is debatable.  But she's pushing out jobs,  not just capitalism. 

    Your comment alluding to executive pay vs worker pay is speculative.  Of course there are going to be levels with pay grades,  but that doesn't mean there are 100 jobs at 10 million and 24900 at 20k. Doesn't work like that for white collar work.  

    Last,  you can bet your last dollar that Amazon analyzed the entire infrastructure situation and had agreements with the city.  It would be corporate planning dereliction of duty not to do so.  Complete amateur hour. 
    Well, if they did, they should be made public. This kind of wheeling and dealing needs to be more transparent with a public comment period. The tax payers and residents feel the impact long after the politicians go away. And if it’s all rainbows and unicorns, why isn’t more of the process transparent.
    I have no clue. But im sure negotiations could have worked through the concerns. Instead,  the jobs are gone.  Hooray. 
    Gone from NY. Let’s see where they land next and what the reality is after a year of full operation. Maybe get Michael Moore to do a documentary. 
    Yes gone from NY. I'm criticizing what AoC tweeted specifically and what some politicians locally have said to drive out Amazon.  It will land somewhere else,  probably Atlanta. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,268
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    It must be nice that NY is doing so well economically that 50 000 jobs mean squat.
    It might be too much,  too fast.  Although I don't know the growth plan,  where they add 50k over 10 years or something,  which seems more rational.  I agree with you though,  that the "people" are cutting off their nose to spite the face. 
    You guys don't live here.  You don't know what it would do to the surrounding communities.

    I spoke about it earlier on what would happen to communities.
    While I agree that there are unintended consequences top this type of influx of jobs,  I think it's difficult to say that it would be a net negative over the course of several years.  Certainly there will be people negatively impacted,  but certainly many positively. 

    I do think that this statement from AOC is overblown and ridiculous.  To act like the decision by company to move there was nefarious is outrageous.....

    Today was the day a group of dedicated, everyday New Yorkers & their neighbors defeated Amazon’s corporate greed, its worker exploitation, and the power of the richest man in the world," Ocasio-Cortez, one of the deal's staunchest critics, wrote
    I do not get the Amazon hate.  I ordered something from them today and it will here Friday.  And so @brianlux doesn't chew me out, it was not a book.  LOL.
    LOL.  Although it's true that I'm totally anti-Amazon no matter what the purchase (unless it's something that can't be found any where else), if I ragged on everyone I know who buys stuff on Amazon, I'd be come really lonely really fast. Better to try to persuade than to  scold.

    My beef with Amazon is that Bezos' Amazon wants to destroy small businesses.  "The Evil One" (as a friend likes to call the mega-sales outfit) has also been accused of not paying it's share of taxes. 

    More on that here:


    And then there's the matter of the slave labor in the warehouses.

    And one other thing before I push the button:   Amazon has also gone out of it's way to swallow up other on-line businesses which then become it's subsidiaries (including some on-line book sites-- not the one I use).  In other words, they're really into playing:

    And of course we all know who wins and who loses that game in real life.







    Oh, and yeah, I almost forgot about that button. 

    Here goes...



    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • benjsbenjs Toronto, ONPosts: 7,375
    Brian, I might be in a position to talk about this a bit. Some background: my dad's family business (which I've been in for five years steady now) is in Retail, we have five locations, and Amazon is certainly not something we take lightly. I also say this while developing a background in data sciences (aka understanding the level of customer understanding that they can produce right now, and also recognizing the likely understanding they'll be able to achieve in the near tomorrows).

    I look at Amazon's path to get here, and ask myself honestly, what was nefarious or unique to Amazon to get here, that someone else couldn't? And the only thing I can come up with is a unique trait, and that's "first presence". They and Alibaba (who both happen to be the largest in eComm) were the first to see the internet as an avenue to reach clients. They recognized that you can broadcast your storefront - now so commonplace that that sounds wasteful to even write. They also broke traditional owner-focused business models, and instead invested in their future in a major way: they squirrelled away their profits to re-invest in their organizations' infrastructures, and they managed to assuage the people they serve (funders, lenders, etc.) while doing that - a task I can imagine requires some serious savviness. Being blunt here, any forward-thinking retail business-person should have seen these signs and recognized where they ought not to try to develop a competitive advantage: on fulfillment. That doesn't mean you don't work on optimizing fulfillment (that's a retailer's obligation), but you recognize the futility of trying to be best in that space, and you look elsewhere in addition. As for Amazon - they have earned their competitive advantage fair and square.

    Fulfillment is not the only value-added service a retail environment is responsible for. It's responsible for adding joy to the (inherently social) shopping experience, it's responsible for an honest educational experience, curation of the right solutions for clients through a meaningful understanding not just of what a shopper has previously bought, but also who they are and how they appreciate being communicated with. These are areas where, with humans as the face of our organizations, we are actually in a competitive advantage in comparison to Amazon. And we see this evidenced: it's 2019, and to this day our salespeople tell me that when people are in the store, they make purchases far more often than not. Futurists like Doug Stephens (writer of Reengineering Retail) talks about the lift that eComm-only sales environments who open retail stores and see 5x lift within months, and only localized to the cities containing retail stores. While Amazon has taken one competitive advantage off the table, there are so many on there that my opinion is Retailers just need to redefine their boxes if they're feeling this fear.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    My perspective on the evils of corporations... After 25 years in the workforce for my wife and me, I've come to the conclusions that:
    1. Corporations pay better than small/mid size businesses for the same work
    2. Corporations offer better benefits, better upward mobility and a better work/life balance
    3. Corporations offer better long term security and are more adapt at riding the ebbs and flow of the economy.  They can hold onto employees and withstand losses better than small and mid size businesses.  

    Today, I work for a 400MM annual rev business, which is midsize.  My clients are all major financial institutions and there are 55 small businesses across the country where we outsource the work.  Think hub and spoke model.  The financial institutions are much better employers than the small businesses for everyone except the owners of these businesses.  That's how small businesses work.  It's great for the owner/operator, but once you get to the middle and lower levels, corporations are by far the better places to work.
    Now I don't have experience in retail or warehouse, just white collar financial services.  But this has been my experience and I've worked at all three types of places.  
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    From Siena poll on Amazon..

    In a Siena poll released:
    - 58% of NYC voters approved of Amazon coming in
    - 53% of union households
    - 70% of blacks and 80% of Latinos approve
    - Only 51% of whites approved

    https://www.scribd.com/document/399492096/Amazon-Cross-Tabs
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 17,146
    Want to know why HQ2 failed?  Not because of Ocasio.

    Because of these two...

    Senate Majority Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins nominated Sen. Michael Gianaris as her appointee to the obscure Public Authorities Control Board.

    It was doomed ever since.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    Want to know why HQ2 failed?  Not because of Ocasio.

    Because of these two...

    Senate Majority Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins nominated Sen. Michael Gianaris as her appointee to the obscure Public Authorities Control Board.

    It was doomed ever since.
    Huh?  Please explain.  To be clear, Amazon didn't fail, they chose to leave because of the local political pressure, of which AOC was a ringleader.  
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,580
    mrussel1 said:
    Want to know why HQ2 failed?  Not because of Ocasio.

    Because of these two...

    Senate Majority Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins nominated Sen. Michael Gianaris as her appointee to the obscure Public Authorities Control Board.

    It was doomed ever since.
    Huh?  Please explain.  To be clear, Amazon didn't fail, they chose to leave because of the local political pressure, of which AOC was a ringleader.  
    Yeah should say, want to know why NY failed?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 4,884


    I thought these were white collar jobs.  Was Amazon going to violate NY labour laws?  Other than government, not many white colour jobs are union jobs?  Are they?
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,580


    I thought these were white collar jobs.  Was Amazon going to violate NY labour laws?  Other than government, not many white colour jobs are union jobs?  Are they?
    These NY politicians and apparent labor unions are channeling their inner Trumps.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 4,884


    I thought these were white collar jobs.  Was Amazon going to violate NY labour laws?  Other than government, not many white colour jobs are union jobs?  Are they?
    These NY politicians and apparent labor unions are channeling their inner Trumps.
    I'm not sure where the union fits in here.  Why would white colour workers want a union?  It now seems that the people who were opposed are just grasping at air now.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942


    I thought these were white collar jobs.  Was Amazon going to violate NY labour laws?  Other than government, not many white colour jobs are union jobs?  Are they?
    These NY politicians and apparent labor unions are channeling their inner Trumps.
    I'm not sure where the union fits in here.  Why would white colour workers want a union?  It now seems that the people who were opposed are just grasping at air now.
    That's right.  It's political spin.  
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 17,146
    mrussel1 said:
    Want to know why HQ2 failed?  Not because of Ocasio.

    Because of these two...

    Senate Majority Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins nominated Sen. Michael Gianaris as her appointee to the obscure Public Authorities Control Board.

    It was doomed ever since.
    Huh?  Please explain.  To be clear, Amazon didn't fail, they chose to leave because of the local political pressure, of which AOC was a ringleader.  
    https://nypost.com/2019/02/14/this-is-the-man-who-delivered-the-death-blow-to-amazon-deal/

    Yes it failed.  HQ2 failed to secure a spot here in NY.

    So in a nutshell Stewart Cousins appointed Gianaris to this committee/control board that had to vote unanimously on HQ2 being green lighted.

    These two were both unhappy with what Cuomo and DiBlasi had agreed to.

    As soon as Gianaris was appointed to that board it was never going to happen and Amazon knew it so to save face rather than have to try and win over them they took their bat and ball and are going to play elsewhere.

    I know Ocasio was vocal about not wanting it but it was those two that got in axed.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,268
    edited February 15
    benjs said:
    Brian, I might be in a position to talk about this a bit. Some background: my dad's family business (which I've been in for five years steady now) is in Retail, we have five locations, and Amazon is certainly not something we take lightly. I also say this while developing a background in data sciences (aka understanding the level of customer understanding that they can produce right now, and also recognizing the likely understanding they'll be able to achieve in the near tomorrows).

    I look at Amazon's path to get here, and ask myself honestly, what was nefarious or unique to Amazon to get here, that someone else couldn't? And the only thing I can come up with is a unique trait, and that's "first presence". They and Alibaba (who both happen to be the largest in eComm) were the first to see the internet as an avenue to reach clients. They recognized that you can broadcast your storefront - now so commonplace that that sounds wasteful to even write. They also broke traditional owner-focused business models, and instead invested in their future in a major way: they squirrelled away their profits to re-invest in their organizations' infrastructures, and they managed to assuage the people they serve (funders, lenders, etc.) while doing that - a task I can imagine requires some serious savviness. Being blunt here, any forward-thinking retail business-person should have seen these signs and recognized where they ought not to try to develop a competitive advantage: on fulfillment. That doesn't mean you don't work on optimizing fulfillment (that's a retailer's obligation), but you recognize the futility of trying to be best in that space, and you look elsewhere in addition. As for Amazon - they have earned their competitive advantage fair and square.

    Fulfillment is not the only value-added service a retail environment is responsible for. It's responsible for adding joy to the (inherently social) shopping experience, it's responsible for an honest educational experience, curation of the right solutions for clients through a meaningful understanding not just of what a shopper has previously bought, but also who they are and how they appreciate being communicated with. These are areas where, with humans as the face of our organizations, we are actually in a competitive advantage in comparison to Amazon. And we see this evidenced: it's 2019, and to this day our salespeople tell me that when people are in the store, they make purchases far more often than not. Futurists like Doug Stephens (writer of Reengineering Retail) talks about the lift that eComm-only sales environments who open retail stores and see 5x lift within months, and only localized to the cities containing retail stores. While Amazon has taken one competitive advantage off the table, there are so many on there that my opinion is Retailers just need to redefine their boxes if they're feeling this fear.
    Excellent and astute observations as always,  Ben.  Yes, I totally agree that brick and mortar stores have the advantages of human interface you mention.  At my wife's bookstore and the book co-op I used to belong to, that is/was our strong point.  We work very hard to form helpful and friendly relationships with our regulars and make tourists and out-of-towners feel welcome.  All of that combined works well toward forming a sense of community, something generally lacking in e-commerce.  That sense of community is very helpful in many ways- I could write a whole book about that (Wendell Berry and others have!)

    I don't object to the idea of internet shopping.  In fact, in some ways I think it is very useful.  For example, I have about 1000 book titles listed on line that are mostly obscure things that would not likely sell in my wife's or most other book stores.  Rather than take up shelf space in a local store, they are out there for anyone in almost any country to find.  And I have bought books and records on-line that I would have had to travel far and wide to find in a store  (also thus saving on a lot of fuel, time and energy).

    My objection to Amazon is their expressed aggressive attitude toward independent retailers, their reputation for overworking and underpaying employees, and their tax-dodging ways.  We should either all pay the same taxes or all have the same advantages to avoid them. 
    "Love and only love will break it down"
    -Neil Young
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.





  • dignindignin Posts: 6,918


    I thought these were white collar jobs.  Was Amazon going to violate NY labour laws?  Other than government, not many white colour jobs are union jobs?  Are they?
    These NY politicians and apparent labor unions are channeling their inner Trumps.
    I'm not sure where the union fits in here.  Why would white colour workers want a union?  It now seems that the people who were opposed are just grasping at air now.
    Haha, they got what they wanted so how does that turn into grasping at air?
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 10,942
    dignin said:


    I thought these were white collar jobs.  Was Amazon going to violate NY labour laws?  Other than government, not many white colour jobs are union jobs?  Are they?
    These NY politicians and apparent labor unions are channeling their inner Trumps.
    I'm not sure where the union fits in here.  Why would white colour workers want a union?  It now seems that the people who were opposed are just grasping at air now.
    Haha, they got what they wanted so how does that turn into grasping at air?
    He's saying the fact that Amazon is anti union (like every business) is not a good reason to run them out because the jobs are not typically union jobs. 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 4,884
    dignin said:


    I thought these were white collar jobs.  Was Amazon going to violate NY labour laws?  Other than government, not many white colour jobs are union jobs?  Are they?
    These NY politicians and apparent labor unions are channeling their inner Trumps.
    I'm not sure where the di fits in here.  Why would white colour workers want a union?  It now seems that the people who were opposed are just grasping at air now.
    Haha, they got what they wanted so how does that turn into grasping at air?
    I thought you'd be too busy trying to save nutty and the dippers from a historic defeat out there in Alberta. 
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