Knife and Fork Etiquette

HesCalledDyer · January 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

PJ_Soul said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in. Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating). She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite.

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

I butter the whole damn thing....I'm AMERICAN goddammit

But yes...I get your point. The Euro method is more efficient if you are a neanderthal and need to stuff your meat hole with food as efficiently as possible.

Well, both Euro and American style can be refined or neanderthal. With either method I've seen people cut up absolutely everything on their plate, mix things together, and grab the utensils with ham fists and shovel away. I also dislike seeing people do a reverse grip on the fork to stab the meat, looking like they're driving a stake through Dracula's heart, and slicing away with furious sawing motions. Ugh.

I probably had an odd upbringing. My Dad was relentless about not making noise when you chewed, swallowed, etc. No slurping, no chewing potato chips with your mouth open, etc.

I consider that normal, not odd. Any parent who does NOT teach those things to their kids are not doing a proper job of parenting IMO. And I have seen the results of such parenting. Their kids grow up to be revolting at any table. I have literally had to ditch people as friends because of their disgusting table manners and loud disgusting eating. It is a really big deal to me, and I think it says something about what kind of people they are: rude and oblivious and gross. I just can't hang out with someone who is going to humiliate me and sicken me and the people at nearby tables when we go out to eat. What really gets me is that, even if their parents did drop the ball, these people should be more self-aware as adults either way. It's not like the idea of chewing with your mouth closed, not slurping on your hands at the table, and not holding your cutlery like a caveman is a secret. Such basics are pretty openly discussed in popular culture and regular society... and these idiots don't catch on? I have no tolerance for such people.

My dad was definitely a stickler for things like chewing with your mouth closed, not talking with your mouth full, not putting elbows on the table, not shoveling your forks/spoons, asking for seconds or to be excused from the table, etc. On the other hand, he is often a terrible person to go out to eat with. He thrives on things going wrong so he can bitch about them, talk rude to the waiter, make comments under his breath when they leave the table, and so on. It's a really weird dynamic. Prime example of "Do as I say, not as I do." Me, I worked in food service so even if the service is bad or mistakes are made, I'm still polite and tip well.

why would you tip if the service is bad? that makes no sense to me. a tip is supposed to be reserved for exceptional service, not just because they didn't shit in your food. I can tell if something was an honest mistake or not, and I will most likely tip if there was a one-off miss or something, but to me tipping is reserved for attention to detail. If the service was amazing but the food sucked, I'll tip the server knowing the cook will get 10% at most anyway. If the food was awesome but the service sucked, I'll ask to speak the manager and request my tip go directly to the kitchen.

I worked in food service too. And I will never understand automatic tipping.

A few reasons... Because food service workers in America get paid for shit, especially for all the crap they have to deal with. Because they don't work for anything near a living wage and their livelihood depends on tips. A waiter's, waitress', or bartender's paycheck is usually not very much at all unless they work a shit ton of hours. Their income comes almost solely from tips. And I am not going to assume that a person is just a terrible, terrible server or what may be causing them to have a bad day. Perhaps their last table cursed them out in front of the whole restaurant, or a coworker made an inappopriate comment or move on them. Maybe they wrecked their car on the way to work that day. Maybe they dropped dishes or burned themselves. Could be their first or second day on the job and they just aren't getting the hang of things. Could be a multitude of those things. Bottom line is I don't know what could be causing them to be off their service that day or has them in a bad mood. If I tip well, the benefit is hopefully two-fold in that not only it makes the server's day a little better, but then the next customer they wait on also has a better experience.

F Me In The Brain · January 2019

American Method

Image: http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/02/violin-steve-buscemi.gif

(I tip well, just thought this was appropriate.)

HughFreakingDillon · January 2019

HesCalledDyer said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

PJ_Soul said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in. Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating). She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite.

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

I butter the whole damn thing....I'm AMERICAN goddammit

But yes...I get your point. The Euro method is more efficient if you are a neanderthal and need to stuff your meat hole with food as efficiently as possible.

Well, both Euro and American style can be refined or neanderthal. With either method I've seen people cut up absolutely everything on their plate, mix things together, and grab the utensils with ham fists and shovel away. I also dislike seeing people do a reverse grip on the fork to stab the meat, looking like they're driving a stake through Dracula's heart, and slicing away with furious sawing motions. Ugh.

I probably had an odd upbringing. My Dad was relentless about not making noise when you chewed, swallowed, etc. No slurping, no chewing potato chips with your mouth open, etc.

I consider that normal, not odd. Any parent who does NOT teach those things to their kids are not doing a proper job of parenting IMO. And I have seen the results of such parenting. Their kids grow up to be revolting at any table. I have literally had to ditch people as friends because of their disgusting table manners and loud disgusting eating. It is a really big deal to me, and I think it says something about what kind of people they are: rude and oblivious and gross. I just can't hang out with someone who is going to humiliate me and sicken me and the people at nearby tables when we go out to eat. What really gets me is that, even if their parents did drop the ball, these people should be more self-aware as adults either way. It's not like the idea of chewing with your mouth closed, not slurping on your hands at the table, and not holding your cutlery like a caveman is a secret. Such basics are pretty openly discussed in popular culture and regular society... and these idiots don't catch on? I have no tolerance for such people.

My dad was definitely a stickler for things like chewing with your mouth closed, not talking with your mouth full, not putting elbows on the table, not shoveling your forks/spoons, asking for seconds or to be excused from the table, etc. On the other hand, he is often a terrible person to go out to eat with. He thrives on things going wrong so he can bitch about them, talk rude to the waiter, make comments under his breath when they leave the table, and so on. It's a really weird dynamic. Prime example of "Do as I say, not as I do." Me, I worked in food service so even if the service is bad or mistakes are made, I'm still polite and tip well.

why would you tip if the service is bad? that makes no sense to me. a tip is supposed to be reserved for exceptional service, not just because they didn't shit in your food. I can tell if something was an honest mistake or not, and I will most likely tip if there was a one-off miss or something, but to me tipping is reserved for attention to detail. If the service was amazing but the food sucked, I'll tip the server knowing the cook will get 10% at most anyway. If the food was awesome but the service sucked, I'll ask to speak the manager and request my tip go directly to the kitchen.

I worked in food service too. And I will never understand automatic tipping.

A few reasons... Because food service workers in America get paid for shit, especially for all the crap they have to deal with. Because they don't work for anything near a living wage and their livelihood depends on tips. A waiter's, waitress', or bartender's paycheck is usually not very much at all unless they work a shit ton of hours. Their income comes almost solely from tips. And I am not going to assume that a person is just a terrible, terrible server or what may be causing them to have a bad day. Perhaps their last table cursed them out in front of the whole restaurant, or a coworker made an inappopriate comment or move on them. Maybe they wrecked their car on the way to work that day. Maybe they dropped dishes or burned themselves. Could be their first or second day on the job and they just aren't getting the hang of things. Could be a multitude of those things. Bottom line is I don't know what could be causing them to be off their service that day or has them in a bad mood. If I tip well, the benefit is hopefully two-fold in that not only it makes the server's day a little better, but then the next customer they wait on also has a better experience.

I know what you are saying. however, I worked in the kitchen, and the servers got paid the same as me, ALONG WITH THEIR TIPS. So I guess I have less "pity" for them than people who have not been on the other side of the window. I was eating mac and cheese in my shitty apartment while the servers were driving decent cars. Seriously, I worked at a fucking truck stop. And these girls ALWAYS doubled their pay with their tips. Not to mention those tips are NEVER claimed, so they pay no tax on that income. Which means they were making at least 2 and a half times that every day, if not more.

it's funny to me how much sympathy servers get and kitchen staff no one gives a fuck about.

and you might be right, maybe it would pay it forward, so to speak. But it might have the opposite effect: making them believe their behaviour was worthy of a tip and they treat the next customer the same way, or worse, depending if they feel they've hit what they need to tip out at that day. which I've seen with my own eyes. and it infuriated me, as I took pride in my job no matter what, since tips made no difference to my livelihood. it drove me nuts when I made a nice meal and the waitress would be obviously shity to the customer because she no longer cared how much money she made that night.

HesCalledDyer · January 2019

F Me In The Brain said:

(I tip well, just thought this was appropriate.)

Cough up the buck ya cheap bastard! I paid for your god damn breakfast!

HesCalledDyer · January 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

PJ_Soul said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in. Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating). She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite.

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

I butter the whole damn thing....I'm AMERICAN goddammit

But yes...I get your point. The Euro method is more efficient if you are a neanderthal and need to stuff your meat hole with food as efficiently as possible.

Well, both Euro and American style can be refined or neanderthal. With either method I've seen people cut up absolutely everything on their plate, mix things together, and grab the utensils with ham fists and shovel away. I also dislike seeing people do a reverse grip on the fork to stab the meat, looking like they're driving a stake through Dracula's heart, and slicing away with furious sawing motions. Ugh.

I probably had an odd upbringing. My Dad was relentless about not making noise when you chewed, swallowed, etc. No slurping, no chewing potato chips with your mouth open, etc.

I consider that normal, not odd. Any parent who does NOT teach those things to their kids are not doing a proper job of parenting IMO. And I have seen the results of such parenting. Their kids grow up to be revolting at any table. I have literally had to ditch people as friends because of their disgusting table manners and loud disgusting eating. It is a really big deal to me, and I think it says something about what kind of people they are: rude and oblivious and gross. I just can't hang out with someone who is going to humiliate me and sicken me and the people at nearby tables when we go out to eat. What really gets me is that, even if their parents did drop the ball, these people should be more self-aware as adults either way. It's not like the idea of chewing with your mouth closed, not slurping on your hands at the table, and not holding your cutlery like a caveman is a secret. Such basics are pretty openly discussed in popular culture and regular society... and these idiots don't catch on? I have no tolerance for such people.

My dad was definitely a stickler for things like chewing with your mouth closed, not talking with your mouth full, not putting elbows on the table, not shoveling your forks/spoons, asking for seconds or to be excused from the table, etc. On the other hand, he is often a terrible person to go out to eat with. He thrives on things going wrong so he can bitch about them, talk rude to the waiter, make comments under his breath when they leave the table, and so on. It's a really weird dynamic. Prime example of "Do as I say, not as I do." Me, I worked in food service so even if the service is bad or mistakes are made, I'm still polite and tip well.

why would you tip if the service is bad? that makes no sense to me. a tip is supposed to be reserved for exceptional service, not just because they didn't shit in your food. I can tell if something was an honest mistake or not, and I will most likely tip if there was a one-off miss or something, but to me tipping is reserved for attention to detail. If the service was amazing but the food sucked, I'll tip the server knowing the cook will get 10% at most anyway. If the food was awesome but the service sucked, I'll ask to speak the manager and request my tip go directly to the kitchen.

I worked in food service too. And I will never understand automatic tipping.

A few reasons... Because food service workers in America get paid for shit, especially for all the crap they have to deal with. Because they don't work for anything near a living wage and their livelihood depends on tips. A waiter's, waitress', or bartender's paycheck is usually not very much at all unless they work a shit ton of hours. Their income comes almost solely from tips. And I am not going to assume that a person is just a terrible, terrible server or what may be causing them to have a bad day. Perhaps their last table cursed them out in front of the whole restaurant, or a coworker made an inappopriate comment or move on them. Maybe they wrecked their car on the way to work that day. Maybe they dropped dishes or burned themselves. Could be their first or second day on the job and they just aren't getting the hang of things. Could be a multitude of those things. Bottom line is I don't know what could be causing them to be off their service that day or has them in a bad mood. If I tip well, the benefit is hopefully two-fold in that not only it makes the server's day a little better, but then the next customer they wait on also has a better experience.

I know what you are saying. however, I worked in the kitchen, and the servers got paid the same as me, ALONG WITH THEIR TIPS. So I guess I have less "pity" for them than people who have not been on the other side of the window. I was eating mac and cheese in my shitty apartment while the servers were driving decent cars. Seriously, I worked at a fucking truck stop. And these girls ALWAYS doubled their pay with their tips. Not to mention those tips are NEVER claimed, so they pay no tax on that income. Which means they were making at least 2 and a half times that every day, if not more.

it's funny to me how much sympathy servers get and kitchen staff no one gives a fuck about.

and you might be right, maybe it would pay it forward, so to speak. But it might have the opposite effect: making them believe their behaviour was worthy of a tip and they treat the next customer the same way, or worse, depending if they feel they've hit what they need to tip out at that day. which I've seen with my own eyes. and it infuriated me, as I took pride in my job no matter what, since tips made no difference to my livelihood. it drove me nuts when I made a nice meal and the waitress would be obviously shity to the customer because she no longer cared how much money she made that night.

In the US, it's rare to find a restaurant that pays servers the same as kitchen staff. Cooks, dishwashers, bussers, and the like make at least their state's minimum wage, while servers make 3 bucks an hour... if they're lucky. Their hourly wage basically only covers the taxes on the tips they make.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2019

HesCalledDyer said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

PJ_Soul said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in. Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating). She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite.

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

I butter the whole damn thing....I'm AMERICAN goddammit

But yes...I get your point. The Euro method is more efficient if you are a neanderthal and need to stuff your meat hole with food as efficiently as possible.

Well, both Euro and American style can be refined or neanderthal. With either method I've seen people cut up absolutely everything on their plate, mix things together, and grab the utensils with ham fists and shovel away. I also dislike seeing people do a reverse grip on the fork to stab the meat, looking like they're driving a stake through Dracula's heart, and slicing away with furious sawing motions. Ugh.

I probably had an odd upbringing. My Dad was relentless about not making noise when you chewed, swallowed, etc. No slurping, no chewing potato chips with your mouth open, etc.

I consider that normal, not odd. Any parent who does NOT teach those things to their kids are not doing a proper job of parenting IMO. And I have seen the results of such parenting. Their kids grow up to be revolting at any table. I have literally had to ditch people as friends because of their disgusting table manners and loud disgusting eating. It is a really big deal to me, and I think it says something about what kind of people they are: rude and oblivious and gross. I just can't hang out with someone who is going to humiliate me and sicken me and the people at nearby tables when we go out to eat. What really gets me is that, even if their parents did drop the ball, these people should be more self-aware as adults either way. It's not like the idea of chewing with your mouth closed, not slurping on your hands at the table, and not holding your cutlery like a caveman is a secret. Such basics are pretty openly discussed in popular culture and regular society... and these idiots don't catch on? I have no tolerance for such people.

My dad was definitely a stickler for things like chewing with your mouth closed, not talking with your mouth full, not putting elbows on the table, not shoveling your forks/spoons, asking for seconds or to be excused from the table, etc. On the other hand, he is often a terrible person to go out to eat with. He thrives on things going wrong so he can bitch about them, talk rude to the waiter, make comments under his breath when they leave the table, and so on. It's a really weird dynamic. Prime example of "Do as I say, not as I do." Me, I worked in food service so even if the service is bad or mistakes are made, I'm still polite and tip well.

why would you tip if the service is bad? that makes no sense to me. a tip is supposed to be reserved for exceptional service, not just because they didn't shit in your food. I can tell if something was an honest mistake or not, and I will most likely tip if there was a one-off miss or something, but to me tipping is reserved for attention to detail. If the service was amazing but the food sucked, I'll tip the server knowing the cook will get 10% at most anyway. If the food was awesome but the service sucked, I'll ask to speak the manager and request my tip go directly to the kitchen.

I worked in food service too. And I will never understand automatic tipping.

A few reasons... Because food service workers in America get paid for shit, especially for all the crap they have to deal with. Because they don't work for anything near a living wage and their livelihood depends on tips. A waiter's, waitress', or bartender's paycheck is usually not very much at all unless they work a shit ton of hours. Their income comes almost solely from tips. And I am not going to assume that a person is just a terrible, terrible server or what may be causing them to have a bad day. Perhaps their last table cursed them out in front of the whole restaurant, or a coworker made an inappopriate comment or move on them. Maybe they wrecked their car on the way to work that day. Maybe they dropped dishes or burned themselves. Could be their first or second day on the job and they just aren't getting the hang of things. Could be a multitude of those things. Bottom line is I don't know what could be causing them to be off their service that day or has them in a bad mood. If I tip well, the benefit is hopefully two-fold in that not only it makes the server's day a little better, but then the next customer they wait on also has a better experience.

I know what you are saying. however, I worked in the kitchen, and the servers got paid the same as me, ALONG WITH THEIR TIPS. So I guess I have less "pity" for them than people who have not been on the other side of the window. I was eating mac and cheese in my shitty apartment while the servers were driving decent cars. Seriously, I worked at a fucking truck stop. And these girls ALWAYS doubled their pay with their tips. Not to mention those tips are NEVER claimed, so they pay no tax on that income. Which means they were making at least 2 and a half times that every day, if not more.

it's funny to me how much sympathy servers get and kitchen staff no one gives a fuck about.

and you might be right, maybe it would pay it forward, so to speak. But it might have the opposite effect: making them believe their behaviour was worthy of a tip and they treat the next customer the same way, or worse, depending if they feel they've hit what they need to tip out at that day. which I've seen with my own eyes. and it infuriated me, as I took pride in my job no matter what, since tips made no difference to my livelihood. it drove me nuts when I made a nice meal and the waitress would be obviously shity to the customer because she no longer cared how much money she made that night.

In the US, it's rare to find a restaurant that pays servers the same as kitchen staff. Cooks, dishwashers, bussers, and the like make at least their state's minimum wage, while servers make 3 bucks an hour... if they're lucky. Their hourly wage basically only covers the taxes on the tips they make.

what's the point of a minimum wage if you can pay someone lower than it?

F Me In The Brain · January 2019

American Method

HesCalledDyer said:

F Me In The Brain said:

(I tip well, just thought this was appropriate.)

Cough up the buck ya cheap bastard! I paid for your god damn breakfast!

Exactly!

HesCalledDyer · January 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

In the US, it's rare to find a restaurant that pays servers the same as kitchen staff. Cooks, dishwashers, bussers, and the like make at least their state's minimum wage, while servers make 3 bucks an hour... if they're lucky. Their hourly wage basically only covers the taxes on the tips they make.

what's the point of a minimum wage if you can pay someone lower than it?

Some shitty loophole that, on average, their tips bring them up to the minimum hourly wage.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2019

HesCalledDyer said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

In the US, it's rare to find a restaurant that pays servers the same as kitchen staff. Cooks, dishwashers, bussers, and the like make at least their state's minimum wage, while servers make 3 bucks an hour... if they're lucky. Their hourly wage basically only covers the taxes on the tips they make.

what's the point of a minimum wage if you can pay someone lower than it?

Some shitty loophole that, on average, their tips bring them up to the minimum hourly wage.

so it's legal? wow. I didn't know that.

not here it ain't.

PJ_Soul · January 2019

HesCalledDyer said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

HesCalledDyer said:

PJ_Soul said:

Gern Blansten said:

jeffbr said:

Well, both Euro and American style can be refined or neanderthal. With either method I've seen people cut up absolutely everything on their plate, mix things together, and grab the utensils with ham fists and shovel away. I also dislike seeing people do a reverse grip on the fork to stab the meat, looking like they're driving a stake through Dracula's heart, and slicing away with furious sawing motions. Ugh.

I probably had an odd upbringing. My Dad was relentless about not making noise when you chewed, swallowed, etc. No slurping, no chewing potato chips with your mouth open, etc.

I consider that normal, not odd. Any parent who does NOT teach those things to their kids are not doing a proper job of parenting IMO. And I have seen the results of such parenting. Their kids grow up to be revolting at any table. I have literally had to ditch people as friends because of their disgusting table manners and loud disgusting eating. It is a really big deal to me, and I think it says something about what kind of people they are: rude and oblivious and gross. I just can't hang out with someone who is going to humiliate me and sicken me and the people at nearby tables when we go out to eat. What really gets me is that, even if their parents did drop the ball, these people should be more self-aware as adults either way. It's not like the idea of chewing with your mouth closed, not slurping on your hands at the table, and not holding your cutlery like a caveman is a secret. Such basics are pretty openly discussed in popular culture and regular society... and these idiots don't catch on? I have no tolerance for such people.

My dad was definitely a stickler for things like chewing with your mouth closed, not talking with your mouth full, not putting elbows on the table, not shoveling your forks/spoons, asking for seconds or to be excused from the table, etc. On the other hand, he is often a terrible person to go out to eat with. He thrives on things going wrong so he can bitch about them, talk rude to the waiter, make comments under his breath when they leave the table, and so on. It's a really weird dynamic. Prime example of "Do as I say, not as I do." Me, I worked in food service so even if the service is bad or mistakes are made, I'm still polite and tip well.

why would you tip if the service is bad? that makes no sense to me. a tip is supposed to be reserved for exceptional service, not just because they didn't shit in your food. I can tell if something was an honest mistake or not, and I will most likely tip if there was a one-off miss or something, but to me tipping is reserved for attention to detail. If the service was amazing but the food sucked, I'll tip the server knowing the cook will get 10% at most anyway. If the food was awesome but the service sucked, I'll ask to speak the manager and request my tip go directly to the kitchen.

I worked in food service too. And I will never understand automatic tipping.

A few reasons... Because food service workers in America get paid for shit, especially for all the crap they have to deal with. Because they don't work for anything near a living wage and their livelihood depends on tips. A waiter's, waitress', or bartender's paycheck is usually not very much at all unless they work a shit ton of hours. Their income comes almost solely from tips. And I am not going to assume that a person is just a terrible, terrible server or what may be causing them to have a bad day. Perhaps their last table cursed them out in front of the whole restaurant, or a coworker made an inappopriate comment or move on them. Maybe they wrecked their car on the way to work that day. Maybe they dropped dishes or burned themselves. Could be their first or second day on the job and they just aren't getting the hang of things. Could be a multitude of those things. Bottom line is I don't know what could be causing them to be off their service that day or has them in a bad mood. If I tip well, the benefit is hopefully two-fold in that not only it makes the server's day a little better, but then the next customer they wait on also has a better experience.

I know what you are saying. however, I worked in the kitchen, and the servers got paid the same as me, ALONG WITH THEIR TIPS. So I guess I have less "pity" for them than people who have not been on the other side of the window. I was eating mac and cheese in my shitty apartment while the servers were driving decent cars. Seriously, I worked at a fucking truck stop. And these girls ALWAYS doubled their pay with their tips. Not to mention those tips are NEVER claimed, so they pay no tax on that income. Which means they were making at least 2 and a half times that every day, if not more.

it's funny to me how much sympathy servers get and kitchen staff no one gives a fuck about.

and you might be right, maybe it would pay it forward, so to speak. But it might have the opposite effect: making them believe their behaviour was worthy of a tip and they treat the next customer the same way, or worse, depending if they feel they've hit what they need to tip out at that day. which I've seen with my own eyes. and it infuriated me, as I took pride in my job no matter what, since tips made no difference to my livelihood. it drove me nuts when I made a nice meal and the waitress would be obviously shity to the customer because she no longer cared how much money she made that night.

In the US, it's rare to find a restaurant that pays servers the same as kitchen staff. Cooks, dishwashers, bussers, and the like make at least their state's minimum wage, while servers make 3 bucks an hour... if they're lucky. Their hourly wage basically only covers the taxes on the tips they make.

Yeah, that's not actually legal in Canada, so that's where HFD is coming from.

Every place I worked, all servers were required to give 10 - 15% of their tips to the non-serving staff tip pool, and then it was distributed evenly to those people. Also, I've never worked at a place where the kitchen staff wasn't paid a higher hourly rate than the servers - servers normally make minimum wage, and the kitchen staff always made more than that. All that said, yes, servers usually made more at the end of the day than most kitchen staff, especially given the fact that nobody ever paid taxes on tips back then, excepting the salaried head chefs/cooks.

HesCalledDyer · January 2019

Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that. To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers. Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.

PJ_Soul · January 2019

HesCalledDyer said:

Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that. To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers. Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.

I love the tipping method. Either way you're paying more for your meals - I like to have control over that amount based on the quality of service. Without tips, North American servers will absolutely NOT do as good a job anywhere near as often without the motivation tips bring. Maybe Europeans can handle that concept, but North Americans definitely would not.

kce8 · January 2019

HesCalledDyer said:

Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that. To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers. Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.

I'm sorry to disagree with you.
We do tip here too, as we all know servers have a really low income. Times changed and I guess they all hope for a tip. But you don't have to tip, that's right.
On the other side I think we don't give that much of a tip as the Americans.
If I don't tip, the service must have been just bad. Still go with good behaviour and stay friendly.
Tipping is definitely not seeing as rude anymore. Not that I would know about that.

PJ_Soul · January 2019

kce8 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that. To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers. Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.

I'm sorry to disagree with you.
We do tip here too, as we all know servers have a really low income. Times changed and I guess they all hope for a tip. But you don't have to tip, that's right.
On the other side I think we don't give that much of a tip as the Americans.
If I don't tip, the service must have been just bad. Still go with good behaviour and stay friendly.
Tipping is definitely not seeing as rude anymore. Not that I would know about that.

Well maybe it's changed since the 90s, but at least back then I know many British and Australian people don't tip at all because of higher server wages. I used to serve in Banff, which was absolutely packed with British and Australian people, and literally NONE of them tipped anything unless we wrote "Service not included" on the back of the check. It took me a bit to catch on to that trick, because it was considered rude to talk about it. But once I did catch on, I discovered that these Brits and Aussies were shocked and embarrassed because they'd not been tipping, and then they tended to try and symbolically make up for all the past meals they hadn't tipped on before me, and tipped me way too much.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2019

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk.

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants.

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession.

PJ_Soul · January 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk.

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants.

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession.

I agree with you. If I were you, I just wouldn't do it. Sounds like they are lumping the massage therapists into the same category as the people who do pedicures and shit.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2019

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk.

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants.

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession.

I agree with you. If I were you, I just wouldn't do it. Sounds like they are lumping the massage therapists into the same category as the people who do pedicures and shit.

I don't. I mean, I am covered for a good portion of the massage anyway, but it's more on principle than anything. I don't tip a chiro, or a doctor, I ain't tipping a massage therapist.

PJ_Soul · January 2019

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk.

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants.

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession.

I agree with you. If I were you, I just wouldn't do it. Sounds like they are lumping the massage therapists into the same category as the people who do pedicures and shit.

I don't. I mean, I am covered for a good portion of the massage anyway, but it's more on principle than anything. I don't tip a chiro, or a doctor, I ain't tipping a massage therapist.

I also don't tip baristas, who get paid appropriately for what they're doing, or anyone who has those tip jars on the counter at places where they basically do next to nothing. Like at $2 pizza slice places, where they are asking for a tip for standing there and putting a slice of pizza on a plate and taking my money. Or the fools at the beer and wine stores behind the cash register. I seriously can't believe they have the nerve to put out a tip jar... or that anyone is willing to put anything in it.

Gern Blansten · January 2019

American Method

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk.

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants.

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession.

Yeah sometimes it gets real confusing as to who to tip. I've never understood my wife tipping her hair stylist.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2019

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk.

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants.

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession.

I agree with you. If I were you, I just wouldn't do it. Sounds like they are lumping the massage therapists into the same category as the people who do pedicures and shit.

I don't. I mean, I am covered for a good portion of the massage anyway, but it's more on principle than anything. I don't tip a chiro, or a doctor, I ain't tipping a massage therapist.

I also don't tip baristas, who get paid appropriately for what they're doing, or anyone who has those tip jars on the counter at places where they basically do next to nothing. Like at $2 pizza slice places, where they are asking for a tip for standing there and putting a slice of pizza on a plate and taking my money. Or the fools at the beer and wine stores behind the cash register. I seriously can't believe they have the nerve to put out a tip jar... or that anyone is willing to put anything in it.

agreed completely. I have said the same thing to my wife, how it's almost an insult that they are asking for money when all they are doing is opening and closing the till and fucking up my order. LOL

Knife and Fork Etiquette

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