Knife and Fork Etiquette

kce8

PJ_Soul said:

kce8 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that.  To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers.  Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.

I'm sorry to disagree with you.
We do tip here too, as we all know servers have a really low income. Times changed and I guess they all hope for a tip. But you don't have to tip, that's right. 
On the other side I think we don't give that much of a tip as the Americans. 
If I don't tip, the service must have been just bad. Still go with good behaviour and stay friendly.
Tipping is definitely not seeing as rude anymore. Not that I would know about that. 

Well maybe it's changed since the 90s, but at least back then I know many British and Australian people don't tip at all because of higher server wages. I used to serve in Banff, which was absolutely packed with British and Australian people, and literally NONE of them tipped anything unless we wrote "Service not included" on the back of the check. It took me a bit to catch on to that trick, because it was considered rude to talk about it. But once I did catch on, I discovered that these Brits and Aussies were shocked and embarrassed because they'd not been tipping, and then they tended to try and symbolically make up for all the past meals they hadn't tipped on before me, and tipped me way too much.

Haha, good for you! lol

As far as I know service is not included in UK. 
And I know from an Australian that it is included in Australia so they don't tip. I think they have a good income.
In Germany you don't have to, but you should if service was good, income in service is poor.
In France, they also have the tip with 15% included on the bill. You still tip though but not that much.
These are my experiences. 

kce8

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk. 

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants. 

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession. 

Yeah sometimes it gets real confusing as to who to tip.  I've never understood my wife tipping her hair stylist.  

I know it's confusing right.
Hair dresser are having a very low income in Germany too. They really need a tip. (Not talking about the star stylists )
But you just can't give a tip to everybody…

rgambs

American Method

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.

jeffbr

European Method

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.

No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.

PJ_Soul

kce8 said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk. 

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants. 

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession. 

Yeah sometimes it gets real confusing as to who to tip.  I've never understood my wife tipping her hair stylist.  

I know it's confusing right.
Hair dresser are having a very low income in Germany too. They really need a tip. (Not talking about the star stylists )
But you just can't give a tip to everybody…

ALWAYS tip the hair stylist!!! You want to be in their good books no matter what! I tip my hair stylist better than anyone else that I tip. Like at least 25 - 30%. I have long hair that is finicky about how it's layered - I need the person cutting it to go above and beyond in terms of effort, and also need them to remember me and my hair really well. Also, if you tip your hair stylist well they give you an extra long and extra awesome scalp massage when they're washing and conditioning your hair.

kce8

PJ_Soul said:

kce8 said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk. 

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants. 

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession. 

Yeah sometimes it gets real confusing as to who to tip.  I've never understood my wife tipping her hair stylist.  

I know it's confusing right.
Hair dresser are having a very low income in Germany too. They really need a tip. (Not talking about the star stylists )
But you just can't give a tip to everybody…

ALWAYS tip the hair stylist!!! You want to be in their good books no matter what! I tip my hair stylist better than anyone else that I tip. Like at least 25 - 30%. I have long hair that is finicky about how it's layered - I need the person cutting it to go above and beyond in terms of effort, and also need them to remember me and my hair really well. Also, if you tip your hair stylist well they give you an extra long and extra awesome scalp massage when they're washing and conditioning your hair.

You are so damn right!!!

I have long hair too, but I hate to go to the hairdresser. I would love that scalp massage etc. but I hate all the noisy women talking and giggling all the time. Goes on my nerves haha. I hate all that talking there, it should be quiet and calm there to relax and enjoy it. But all the women, jeezuz…
And to be honest I really nearly never like what they do to my hair. I always feel like I want to go home and wash it again. I want it naturally and most of the time it looks just like too much styled or done. (I don't know how to say it in English) So I avoid to go as long as I can. 

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

kce8 said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk. 

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants. 

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession. 

Yeah sometimes it gets real confusing as to who to tip.  I've never understood my wife tipping her hair stylist.  

I know it's confusing right.
Hair dresser are having a very low income in Germany too. They really need a tip. (Not talking about the star stylists )
But you just can't give a tip to everybody…

ALWAYS tip the hair stylist!!! You want to be in their good books no matter what! I tip my hair stylist better than anyone else that I tip. Like at least 25 - 30%. I have long hair that is finicky about how it's layered - I need the person cutting it to go above and beyond in terms of effort, and also need them to remember me and my hair really well. Also, if you tip your hair stylist well they give you an extra long and extra awesome scalp massage when they're washing and conditioning your hair.

when i used to have hair, i would have preferred an extra long scalp massage to...well....you know. 

didn't hurt that my hair girl was super hot. but still. 

PJ_Soul

kce8 said:

PJ_Soul said:

kce8 said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

speaking of tipping, and sorry it's off topic, but my last experience at a massage spa (not a rub n tug) was odd. I took my wife there for the day. Massage, access to the nordic thermal spa, and lunch. Like a $600 day. the massages themselves were each $130. At the end of the massage, the therapist hands me this envelope. It's a fucking tip envelope that I can fill and leave at the front desk. 

at other spas they have the dignity to just let you do it when you pay at the front desk. although they do ask if you want to, instead of just leaving it up to you like they do at restaurants. 

I got to thinking......what the fuck do these people need tips for? they are registered massage therapists, trained professionals, who can get paid anywhere between $30-$70K. Why the fuck are they asking for tips? Am I going to be asked to tip my fucking dental assistant next?

it just seems to delegitimize the profession. 

Yeah sometimes it gets real confusing as to who to tip.  I've never understood my wife tipping her hair stylist.  

I know it's confusing right.
Hair dresser are having a very low income in Germany too. They really need a tip. (Not talking about the star stylists )
But you just can't give a tip to everybody…

ALWAYS tip the hair stylist!!! You want to be in their good books no matter what! I tip my hair stylist better than anyone else that I tip. Like at least 25 - 30%. I have long hair that is finicky about how it's layered - I need the person cutting it to go above and beyond in terms of effort, and also need them to remember me and my hair really well. Also, if you tip your hair stylist well they give you an extra long and extra awesome scalp massage when they're washing and conditioning your hair.

You are so damn right!!!

I have long hair too, but I hate to go to the hairdresser. I would love that scalp massage etc. but I hate all the noisy women talking and giggling all the time. Goes on my nerves haha. I hate all that talking there, it should be quiet and calm there to relax and enjoy it. But all the women, jeezuz…
And to be honest I really nearly never like what they do to my hair. I always feel like I want to go home and wash it again. I want it naturally and most of the time it looks just like too much styled or done. (I don't know how to say it in English) So I avoid to go as long as I can. 

Sounds like you really need to be going to a barber, not a hair salon. They'll give scalp massages if you tip them well too! Or it sounds like you're not tipping your hair stylist enough to actually do what you're asking. Or you're failing at making it clear what you want, lol. If you don't like how they're doing it, tell them. They don't mind that, as long as you're nice about it. They genuinely want you to be happy with your hair when you leave.

hedonist

I always tip my hair guy and his assistant; they've been good to me.  Plus, she gives great scalp / neck massages, and the environment is usually serene (best was a rainy Saturday morning wash / massage while Radiohead played).

Tipping?  I always do (though typically not for Uber and certain other services) and add extra when warranted.

rgambs

American Method

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.

No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.

But, why???

PJ_Soul

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.

No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.

But, why???

Because I said so!

No, this is an important one in terms of good table manners. Don't be sticking your knife in anything communal. Use that butter knife, and get your full supply the first time. This is for hygienic reasons. Some of your spit/germs could have reached your own knife.

rgambs

American Method

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.

No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.

But, why???

Because I said so!

No, this is an important one in terms of good table manners. Don't be sticking your knife in anything communal. Use that butter knife, and get your full supply the first time. This is for hygienic reasons. Some of your spit/germs could have reached your own knife.

That isn't a reason not to just butter your bread to begin with though, which is what I was asking about.
My assumption is that it falls under the nonsense manners umbrella.
Nonsense manners (most of them lol) are a pet peeve for me.

PJ_Soul

rgambs said:

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.

No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.

But, why???

Because I said so!

No, this is an important one in terms of good table manners. Don't be sticking your knife in anything communal. Use that butter knife, and get your full supply the first time. This is for hygienic reasons. Some of your spit/germs could have reached your own knife.

That isn't a reason not to just butter your bread to begin with though, which is what I was asking about.
My assumption is that it falls under the nonsense manners umbrella.
Nonsense manners (most of them lol) are a pet peeve for me.

Well since you can't butter your own bread with the communal knife because you'd be hogging it, and you'd get fucking crumbs in the butter, putting the butter on your plate first makes total sense. But after that, I agree it's silly to dictate whether someone butters their whole bun, or breaks off pieces and butters them one at a time. I personally usually just do the whole thing, unless it's a really thick round bun, where buttering pieces of it makes better sense for optimal butter coverage, lol. I have never actually seen anyone poo-poo buttering the whole thing. I don't think that's very important even to Miss Manners.

F Me In The Brain

American Method

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.

No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.

But, why???

Why do anything?
That is what people who were taught the traditional manners do.  
I get that it doesn't hurt anyone to butter your bread incorrectly - but there is a correct way to do it that is established.
Not worth fighting city hall over butter. 

jeffbr

European Method

Here's a handy little etiquette guide I came across. It reiterates many of the things already discussed in this thread - holding utensils, American vs Euro knife/fork, buttering bread, eating sushi, slurping, not cutting all of your food at once, talking with food in your mouth, etc...

United States Dining Etiquette Guide

rgambs

American Method

F Me In The Brain said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

rgambs said:

jeffbr said:

Gern Blansten said: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANE8j5ay_UU&t=229s

Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.

Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.

Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.

No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.

But, why???

Why do anything?
That is what people who were taught the traditional manners do.  
I get that it doesn't hurt anyone to butter your bread incorrectly - but there is a correct way to do it that is established.
Not worth fighting city hall over butter. 

Nah, I say bah fuckin humbug to that shit!  If a rational and functional reason can't be produced then to hell with it!  
Too much like religion for my grouchy, contrarian ass.

You old shrivs up in city hall, your fuckin' it up for the people that's in the streets.

F Me In The Brain

American Method

Haha.  Tencious D!

HesCalledDyer

kce8 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that.  To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers.  Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.

I'm sorry to disagree with you.
We do tip here too, as we all know servers have a really low income. Times changed and I guess they all hope for a tip. But you don't have to tip, that's right. 
On the other side I think we don't give that much of a tip as the Americans. 
If I don't tip, the service must have been just bad. Still go with good behaviour and stay friendly.
Tipping is definitely not seeing as rude anymore. Not that I would know about that. 

Ahh, thank you for the clarity on that. I’ve unfortunately never been anywhere in Europe, but that is something I’ve always heard from those who’ve gone. That it wasn’t customary to tip. 

HesCalledDyer

PJ_Soul said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that.  To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers.  Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.

I love the tipping method. Either way you're paying more for your meals - I like to have control over that amount based on the quality of service. Without tips, North American servers will absolutely NOT do as good a job anywhere near as often without the motivation tips bring. Maybe Europeans can handle that concept, but North Americans definitely would not.

But why would you need motivation via tips if you’re making a livable wage? If you pay your workers, treat them right, make it a great environment to work in, provide benefits, most people will do a good job. Not all will, there are always gonna be lazy and stupid people doing jobs. But any job I’ve held, if the environment & pay are in line with the work being done, the morale and ethic will follow. The problem is almost no workplaces, be it food service, industry, whatever provide a healthy, thriving environment. And it shows. 

Thoughts_Arrive

The Aussie way