Knife and Fork Etiquette

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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,476
    edited January 9
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:


    Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

    Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.
    Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

    I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.
    Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
    Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.
    No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.
    But, why???
    Because I said so! ;)
    No, this is an important one in terms of good table manners. Don't be sticking your knife in anything communal. Use that butter knife, and get your full supply the first time. This is for hygienic reasons. Some of your spit/germs could have reached your own knife.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,902
    American Method
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:


    Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

    Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.
    Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

    I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.
    Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
    Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.
    No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.
    But, why???
    Because I said so! ;)
    No, this is an important one in terms of good table manners. Don't be sticking your knife in anything communal. Use that butter knife, and get your full supply the first time. This is for hygienic reasons. Some of your spit/germs could have reached your own knife.
    That isn't a reason not to just butter your bread to begin with though, which is what I was asking about.
    My assumption is that it falls under the nonsense manners umbrella.
    Nonsense manners (most of them lol) are a pet peeve for me.

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,476
    edited January 10
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:


    Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

    Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.
    Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

    I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.
    Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
    Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.
    No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.
    But, why???
    Because I said so! ;)
    No, this is an important one in terms of good table manners. Don't be sticking your knife in anything communal. Use that butter knife, and get your full supply the first time. This is for hygienic reasons. Some of your spit/germs could have reached your own knife.
    That isn't a reason not to just butter your bread to begin with though, which is what I was asking about.
    My assumption is that it falls under the nonsense manners umbrella.
    Nonsense manners (most of them lol) are a pet peeve for me.

    Well since you can't butter your own bread with the communal knife because you'd be hogging it, and you'd get fucking crumbs in the butter, putting the butter on your plate first makes total sense. But after that, I agree it's silly to dictate whether someone butters their whole bun, or breaks off pieces and butters them one at a time. I personally usually just do the whole thing, unless it's a really thick round bun, where buttering pieces of it makes better sense for optimal butter coverage, lol. I have never actually seen anyone poo-poo buttering the whole thing. I don't think that's very important even to Miss Manners.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 16,481
    American Method
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:


    Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

    Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.
    Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

    I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.
    Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
    Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.
    No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.
    But, why???
    Why do anything?
    That is what people who were taught the traditional manners do.  
    I get that it doesn't hurt anyone to butter your bread incorrectly - but there is a correct way to do it that is established.
    Not worth fighting city hall over butter.  :)

    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,547
    European Method
    Here's a handy little etiquette guide I came across. It reiterates many of the things already discussed in this thread - holding utensils, American vs Euro knife/fork, buttering bread, eating sushi, slurping, not cutting all of your food at once, talking with food in your mouth, etc...

    United States Dining Etiquette Guide


    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,902
    edited January 10
    American Method
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:


    Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

    Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.
    Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

    I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.
    Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
    Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.
    No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.
    But, why???
    Why do anything?
    That is what people who were taught the traditional manners do.  
    I get that it doesn't hurt anyone to butter your bread incorrectly - but there is a correct way to do it that is established.
    Not worth fighting city hall over butter.  :)

    Nah, I say bah fuckin humbug to that shit!  If a rational and functional reason can't be produced then to hell with it!  
    Too much like religion for my grouchy, contrarian ass.

    You old shrivs up in city hall, your fuckin' it up for the people that's in the streets.
    Post edited by rgambs on
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 16,481
    American Method
    Haha.  Tencious D!
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 14,550
    kce8 said:
    Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that.  To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers.  Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.
    I'm sorry to disagree with you.
    We do tip here too, as we all know servers have a really low income. Times changed and I guess they all hope for a tip. But you don't have to tip, that's right. 
    On the other side I think we don't give that much of a tip as the Americans. 
    If I don't tip, the service must have been just bad. Still go with good behaviour and stay friendly.
    Tipping is definitely not seeing as rude anymore. Not that I would know about that. 
    Ahh, thank you for the clarity on that. I’ve unfortunately never been anywhere in Europe, but that is something I’ve always heard from those who’ve gone. That it wasn’t customary to tip. 
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 14,550
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that.  To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers.  Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.
    I love the tipping method. Either way you're paying more for your meals - I like to have control over that amount based on the quality of service. Without tips, North American servers will absolutely NOT do as good a job anywhere near as often without the motivation tips bring. Maybe Europeans can handle that concept, but North Americans definitely would not.
    But why would you need motivation via tips if you’re making a livable wage? If you pay your workers, treat them right, make it a great environment to work in, provide benefits, most people will do a good job. Not all will, there are always gonna be lazy and stupid people doing jobs. But any job I’ve held, if the environment & pay are in line with the work being done, the morale and ethic will follow. The problem is almost no workplaces, be it food service, industry, whatever provide a healthy, thriving environment. And it shows. 
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 13,397
    The Aussie way
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  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,379
    I’m asking the Chinese & Japanese restaurants I order takeout from not to send me anymore chopsticks ..
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  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 8,496
    American Method
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:
    rgambs said:
    jeffbr said:


    Here you see Dad starting off Euro and Mom doing the switch 14 seconds in.  Then Mom does a Euro around 1:16 but switches hands again at 2:41 and seems to follow the American style through until 4:37.

    Daughter has clearly been taught by proper human beings as we never see her knife (edit...we do see it around 3:06 but she then switches hands before eating).  She has properly cut everything first and eats with fork in correct (right) hand.
    Ah, but pre-cutting meat beyond a couple of pieces/bites is a breach of etiquette. Same with buttering bread. You don't grab a roll or slice of bread and slather butter on it. You tear a piece, butter that piece, and pop it in your mouth. Tear off and butter the next piece when you're ready for the next bite. 

    I was taught table manners early on and of course taught American style. But after spending time in Europe and quickly adopted the European method of using a knife and fork I find it much more efficient and practical.
    Inefficient and borderline double-dipping.
    Keep your fingered bread out of my butter, thank you.
    No double-dipping. The butter you use should be on your own plate. When butter is passed around, you take what you will need for your bread/roll, put it on your plate, and use that. If you run out, you ask for the butter to be passed again.
    But, why???
    Because I said so! ;)
    No, this is an important one in terms of good table manners. Don't be sticking your knife in anything communal. Use that butter knife, and get your full supply the first time. This is for hygienic reasons. Some of your spit/germs could have reached your own knife.
    That isn't a reason not to just butter your bread to begin with though, which is what I was asking about.
    My assumption is that it falls under the nonsense manners umbrella.
    Nonsense manners (most of them lol) are a pet peeve for me.

    Well since you can't butter your own bread with the communal knife because you'd be hogging it, and you'd get fucking crumbs in the butter, putting the butter on your plate first makes total sense. But after that, I agree it's silly to dictate whether someone butters their whole bun, or breaks off pieces and butters them one at a time. I personally usually just do the whole thing, unless it's a really thick round bun, where buttering pieces of it makes better sense for optimal butter coverage, lol. I have never actually seen anyone poo-poo buttering the whole thing. I don't think that's very important even to Miss Manners.
    Yeah I always taught my kids to use two separate knives when they made a PBJ sandwich.  No one wants jelly boogers in the peanut butter or pb remnants in the jelly.

    And don't fucking double dip your knife in the butter when buttering toast.  I don't want your fucking crumbs.
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,476
    edited January 10
    PJ_Soul said:
    Yeah, I can understand why you guys would have differing views on tipping based on all that.  To tie this discussion back to the purpose of this thread (the European vs American method of doing things at the dinner table) I wish we'd adopt the European method of paying restaurant and bar workers.  Tipping is considered rude because they actually make livable wages doing those jobs.
    I love the tipping method. Either way you're paying more for your meals - I like to have control over that amount based on the quality of service. Without tips, North American servers will absolutely NOT do as good a job anywhere near as often without the motivation tips bring. Maybe Europeans can handle that concept, but North Americans definitely would not.
    But why would you need motivation via tips if you’re making a livable wage? If you pay your workers, treat them right, make it a great environment to work in, provide benefits, most people will do a good job. Not all will, there are always gonna be lazy and stupid people doing jobs. But any job I’ve held, if the environment & pay are in line with the work being done, the morale and ethic will follow. The problem is almost no workplaces, be it food service, industry, whatever provide a healthy, thriving environment. And it shows. 
    Because higher pay for them is absolutely not going to bring in hundreds of dollars in a 6 hours shift, which is what's possible with tips if they work in the right places. But also just because I feel that a large number of people, especially younger people, put in the minimum effort they can get away with, if there aren't any negative consequences in doing so. A majority of servers would just do what they have to do to not get fired or be despised, since that will make them the same amount of money that working their asses off would. The ones who go above and beyond will basically end up being the suckers. And you're right, in the service industry, a workplace that provides an environment that inspires the servers to put in their very best effort for no extra money is rare... maybe non-existent. I think North American servers NEED tips to go above and beyond.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • lastexitlondonlastexitlondon Posts: 4,616
    European Method
    In England tipping is just not really done. 
    I mean it happens but it's very rare. 
    No idea why. So I'm used to just paying the price. Sometimes there is a dish or plate at the till to put some coins in. So I guess that's  tipping
     But then again can't be sure who gets it. That old trick the boss keeps all
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  • kce8kce8 Posts: 1,477
    In England tipping is just not really done. 
    I mean it happens but it's very rare. 
    No idea why. So I'm used to just paying the price. Sometimes there is a dish or plate at the till to put some coins in. So I guess that's  tipping
     But then again can't be sure who gets it. That old trick the boss keeps all
    Ha, that's interesting. When I went to the UK I was told to tip. So I did. If I remember well, we always left the tip at the table. Yeah you don't exactly know who will grab it from there… :| 
    What's driving tourists crazy here in Germany is that the service personal is often not leaving the bill at the table. They will wait till you pay. We are used to it and don't care but I can imagine that foreigners would like it to be done a little bit more discreet? 
    Oh and everybody or couple is paying separately here. :lol: I saw a lot of people shaking their heads over that! =)
  • eddieceddiec Posts: 2,977
    Back when I was a bartender in NYC, 90% of people paid in cash. Today the opposite is true. Almost everybody runs a tab on their credit card to avail of air miles and whatnot. So most tips get taxed. Which in many ways is a good thing, but my friends still in the business say they definitely don't make what they used to.
    Back in the late 90's to mid 2000's, it was common to finish a Saturday night with $300-500 in your pocket. 

  • kce8kce8 Posts: 1,477
    edited January 11
    eddiec said:
    Back when I was a bartender in NYC, 90% of people paid in cash. Today the opposite is true. Almost everybody runs a tab on their credit card to avail of air miles and whatnot. So most tips get taxed. Which in many ways is a good thing, but my friends still in the business say they definitely don't make what they used to.
    Back in the late 90's to mid 2000's, it was common to finish a Saturday night with $300-500 in your pocket. 

    :o 

    :o 

    That's a lot of money. Maybe people also round it up and it's less than they would give in cash? 

    Post edited by kce8 on
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 16,481
    American Method
    eddiec said:
    Back when I was a bartender in NYC, 90% of people paid in cash. Today the opposite is true. Almost everybody runs a tab on their credit card to avail of air miles and whatnot. So most tips get taxed. Which in many ways is a good thing, but my friends still in the business say they definitely don't make what they used to.
    Back in the late 90's to mid 2000's, it was common to finish a Saturday night with $300-500 in your pocket. 

    I pay almost exclusively with my AmEx but I try to use cash to tip.  Tough when it is a big meal but easy on small items.
    Fuck the govt and their goddamn taxes on tips.
    Just going to spend it on thousand dollar toilet seats anyway.
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • HesCalledDyerHesCalledDyer MarylandPosts: 14,550
    eddiec said:
    Back when I was a bartender in NYC, 90% of people paid in cash. Today the opposite is true. Almost everybody runs a tab on their credit card to avail of air miles and whatnot. So most tips get taxed. Which in many ways is a good thing, but my friends still in the business say they definitely don't make what they used to.
    Back in the late 90's to mid 2000's, it was common to finish a Saturday night with $300-500 in your pocket. 

    I pay almost exclusively with my AmEx but I try to use cash to tip.  Tough when it is a big meal but easy on small items.
    Fuck the govt and their goddamn taxes on tips.
    Just going to spend it on thousand dollar toilet seats anyway.
    Fuck the govt... period.
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