Syria
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Sarah's positions not being the same today as three years ago are not what is in dispute. What is in dispute is whether Assad and Putin are nice guys, have an agenda and whether they dropped chemical weapons on innocent Syrians, mainly women, children and old people. What you were being distracted from was an Obama Administration reluctent to get sucked into the Syrian quagmire. We've known the neocon position on the Middle East since 1998 when "revenge for Pappy Bush" was floatedH2M:
Obama was in power throughout the entire escalation, and was the first to send troops there. He pushed for no-fly zones. He propagated the same anti-Assad, pro-regime change statements. The US was not in a position to open up a new hot war front for most of his presidency. Was the decision not to because of his policies, or because it wasn't time yet, or because it wasn't necessary when the country could be destabilized and destroyed via slow-burn proxy war as you call it? Maybe the neocons would have gone in guns a blazin....maybe not.
Lets not forget the whole thing that started this shit show, the Assad regime's brutality toward some teenagers spraying anti-Assad grafitti and the local population's visceral reaction, in the spirit of the Arab Spring, and the subsequent brutality perputrated upon them for, dare thee, non-violently protesting.
You need to read the diplomatic cables I mentioned above....about fomenting protests and uprisings in Syria, well before they began. About the funding for them. About the use of sectarian strife to turn it into a war. And where the visceral reactors came from...they are majority non-local, fyi
Now, you want to argue that Assad is a nice guy?
I do?
Do you want to argue that the US took advantage of the situation to further the ensuing chaos? But none of that excuses the Assad regime and its Russian sponsors of using chemical weapons.
No, it doesn't. But it sure as fuck casts doubt as to who is telling the truth about who used them.
Sputnik? Damn, you aging me? If RT wanted to interview me, I'd do it with conditions, that it be taped, video and sound, by each side, with a third, independent party present doing the same. If the questions and my answers were misrepresented or redacted so as to alter the intent of my answers, I'd go public via every news outlet I could think of. That said, RT is a propaganda arm of Putin and I know that going in.
If this was Sarah's approach, the BBC would likely have just said 'she refused to comment', or they would go ahead with the piece, then cry conspiracy and discredit the blogs she published her side of the story on. Or just bury it, knowing their viewership was big enough that public opinion was swayed way more by them than the blog.
I'm not sure why you think the other journalists don't get heard. I've heard them on NPR, read them in The Nation and Harper's, as well as know that I can go to a bookstore and read their books. Its not my fault that most American news consumers are lazy. Why doesn't Faux News put them on, being the #1 source for trusted news and all?
The Nation, Harper's and NPR? That is fringe mainstream....CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WAPO, etc....? never. RT is more mainstream than the nation or harper's or NPR.
Post edited by Drowned Out on0 -
missed this. Sorry. stolen. whatever. doesn't change the content.JimmyV said:
Stolen emails. Not leaked.Drowned Out said:There were leaked emails in which Hillary said that provoking civil war in Syria was the best way to help Israel..
john mccain has been photographed meeting with Isis leaders and is the worst hawk in Washington.
call me a dog.
I don't disagree that both McCain or Clinton are in favor of Syrian intervention. But Clinton hasn't been in government since 2013 and we've seen a right-leaning member of this very board openly celebrate McCain's brain cancer.
This kind of thing doesn't help your cause.
They are both architects of the war in Syria and have both celebrated worse than one man's brain cancer.
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At least one poster in here spread the bullshit fake news about Comet Pizza... that person now has zero credibility on any issue and appears to fall for any conspiracy floated on the web...
Sorry bro0 -
Did people sleep through the Arab Spring?0
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Did you sleep through my responses above?my2hands said:Did people sleep through the Arab Spring?
Because the US has never co-opted a protest, nor created one as a covert op, right?0 -
I love how twitter accounts posing as journalists are able to dupe people so easily0
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Drowned Out:Drowned Out said:
Sarah's positions not being the same today as three years ago are not what is in dispute. What is in dispute is whether Assad and Putin are nice guys, have an agenda and whether they dropped chemical weapons on innocent Syrians, mainly women, children and old people. What you were being distracted from was an Obama Administration reluctent to get sucked into the Syrian quagmire. We've known the neocon position on the Middle East since 1998 when "revenge for Pappy Bush" was floatedH2M:
Obama was in power throughout the entire escalation, and was the first to send troops there. He pushed for no-fly zones. He propagated the same anti-Assad, pro-regime change statements. The US was not in a position to open up a new hot war front for most of his presidency. Was the decision not to because of his policies, or because it wasn't time yet, or because it wasn't necessary when the country could be destabilized and destroyed via slow-burn proxy war as you call it? Maybe the neocons would have gone in guns a blazin....maybe not.
Lets not forget the whole thing that started this shit show, the Assad regime's brutality toward some teenagers spraying anti-Assad grafitti and the local population's visceral reaction, in the spirit of the Arab Spring, and the subsequent brutality perputrated upon them for, dare thee, non-violently protesting.
You need to read the diplomatic cables I mentioned above....about fomenting protests and uprisings in Syria, well before they began. About the funding for them. About the use of sectarian strife to turn it into a war. And where the visceral reactors came from...they are majority non-local, fyi
Now, you want to argue that Assad is a nice guy?
I do?
Do you want to argue that the US took advantage of the situation to further the ensuing chaos? But none of that excuses the Assad regime and its Russian sponsors of using chemical weapons.
No, it doesn't. But it sure as fuck casts doubt as to who is telling the truth about who used them.
Sputnik? Damn, you aging me? If RT wanted to interview me, I'd do it with conditions, that it be taped, video and sound, by each side, with a third, independent party present doing the same. If the questions and my answers were misrepresented or redacted so as to alter the intent of my answers, I'd go public via every news outlet I could think of. That said, RT is a propaganda arm of Putin and I know that going in.
If this was Sarah's approach, the BBC would likely have just said 'she refused to comment', or they would go ahead with the piece, then cry conspiracy and discredit the blogs she published her side of the story on. Or just bury it, knowing their viewership was big enough that public opinion was swayed way more by them than the blog.
I'm not sure why you think the other journalists don't get heard. I've heard them on NPR, read them in The Nation and Harper's, as well as know that I can go to a bookstore and read their books. Its not my fault that most American news consumers are lazy. Why doesn't Faux News put them on, being the #1 source for trusted news and all?
The Nation, Harper's and NPR? That is fringe mainstream....CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WAPO, etc....? never. RT is more mainstream than the nation or harper's or NPR.
Obama was in power throughout the entire escalation, and was the first to send troops there. He pushed for no-fly zones. He propagated the same anti-Assad, pro-regime change statements. The US was not in a position to open up a new hot war front for most of his presidency. Was the decision not to because of his policies, or because it wasn't time yet, or because it wasn't necessary when the country could be destabilized and destroyed via slow-burn proxy war as you call it? Maybe the neocons would have gone in guns a blazin....maybe not.
Obama resisted escalation and avoided going in "guns blazing." Obama knew it was a shit show and wanted no part of it. He reluctantly sent special forces and enforced a no fly zone. Yet that didn't deter Assad and the Russians from dropping barrel bombs of cholrine gas, not illegal to own but illegal to use as a weapon of war, from helicopters. Why do you think both Bibi and Putin were pissed at him? Because he resisted Israeli entreaties to go further but did enough to piss off Putin and his ally Assad. The West's moral dillema is always, do something and be criticized or do nothing and be criticized. Chemical weapons in the hands of ISIS would have been catastrophic and Assad needed to go. How he goes, or whether he goes, is what is up for debate, or should be.
You need to read the diplomatic cables I mentioned above....about fomenting protests and uprisings in Syria, well before they began. About the funding for them. About the use of sectarian strife to turn it into a war. And where the visceral reactors came from...they are majority non-local, fyi
Are you claiming that the reporting by Richard Engle, on the ground, as it unfolded, as well as that of other western, reputable journalists was a fabrication? I'd love to see the source of your "majority, non-local." And the "sectarian strife" you refer to was against Assad and his clan/sect.
I do?
My question was rhetorical. Some on here, despite where you land, think Assad is a nice guy. If Assad wanted to be a peaceful vision loving opthamologist, why didn't he stay in London?
No, it doesn't. But it sure as fuck casts doubt as to who is telling the truth about who used them.
Why? If Assad/Putin didn't use them, why not allow unfettered access to the victims and sites? The UN/OPCW sources others have cited, and yet others have relied upon and then changed their mind and doubted them, have previously pointed to the Assad regime as being responsible for previous attacks. You don't think Putin had the guy poisoned with plumonium and wasn't responsible for the latest incident in Britain? Really? You doubt who is currently using chemical weapons in Syria?
If this was Sarah's approach, the BBC would likely have just said 'she refused to comment', or they would go ahead with the piece, then cry conspiracy and discredit the blogs she published her side of the story on. Or just bury it, knowing their viewership was big enough that public opinion was swayed way more by them than the blog.
Then Sarah is lazy and its just another way to "discredit" the MSM, which all follows Putin's playbook. Is the BBC the only western news outlet? Members of Parliment, US Congress, Der Speigel are not looking for credible news? I hate to break it to you but propaganda and disinformation have been around for a long, long time and Putin is using it profioundly, see Election, US, 2016. And I'll add because Russia can't beat the West militarily and they have no interest in going nuclear either, they're resorting to social media disinformation campaigns, and efectively so, I might add.
.The Nation, Harper's and NPR? That is fringe mainstream....CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CNN, MSNBC, NYT, WAPO, etc....? never. RT is more mainstream than the nation or harper's or NPR.
By "mainstream," do you mean by viewership or accuracy of reporting? You need to read the IC assessment of Russia interfering with our election. It spells it all out, who works for who, how they gained in popularity and how its propaganda on a major, industrial scale. I guess that makes Faux News worth watching because the claim to be "Fair and Balanced" and the most watched news outlet on television? How many western journalists have been killed for critizing their government or publishing, speaking out or exposing their government for misdeeds? How many have been killeed, jailed or gone missing in Putin's Russia or Assad's Syria for the same? Who was Hitler's first hire?
Stop believing the myth.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
WHo is this directed at? You think I’m duped?my2hands said:I love how twitter accounts posing as journalists are able to dupe people so easily
http://www.truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/33180-wikileaks-reveals-how-the-us-aggressively-pursued-regime-change-in-syria-igniting-a-bloodbath
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Call me when 170,000 US troops are on the ground
Bombing an empty airfield for show isn't shock & awe0 -
I'm well aware of PNAC... American hegemony... and all of Americas glorious misdeeds and fuckups...
And so is Noam Chomsky... you wondered what he thought right?
https://newrepublic.com/article/113834/noam-chomsky-syria-civil-war-not-americas-fault
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/4/5/the_assad_regime_is_a_moral
Keep following Russian funded twitter "journalists"0 -
Let me guess, Chomsky is really just a CIA plant...
I've actually heard that one before lol0 -
Not just a CIA plant also works for Israel, ISIS, Hamas, DNC, and the Clinton Global initiative.my2hands said:Let me guess, Chomsky is really just a CIA plant...
I've actually heard that one before lol0 -
And Reverend Wright, plus he was the records registrar in Hawaii prior to his current job.Bentleyspop said:
Not just a CIA plant also works for Israel, ISIS, Hamas, DNC, and the Clinton Global initiative.my2hands said:Let me guess, Chomsky is really just a CIA plant...
I've actually heard that one before lol09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
I believe the term is ‘CIA gatekeeper’..;)
he is not infallible and in the first link you posted, he is dead wrong. He claims the US does not seek regime change....As he likes to say, ‘the historical record shows otherwise’. The cables I mentioned earlier had only been in the public sphere for a few months at the time of that interview (2013). Obama openly stated that Assad must go, and Chomsky’s interview in the second link you posted contradicts the ‘us not seeking regime change’ claim from the first link. He discusses Russia’s offer to have Assad step aside in 2012, and the west would have none of it. Guess you missed that contradiction when cherry picking from the list of authors mentioned?
Btw - I guess I’m a Russian target. I don’t ‘follow’ Sarah Abdallah as a news source. She added me as a friend on fb years ago. I accepted because she relays information from other sources in Syria that you don’t see in the mainstream: images of Christians celebrating Easter, the mass street parties after Aleppo was liberated etc.... And because, well....she’s hot
I have no illusions about her bias, and none about yours, either. 0 -
Don't forget delivery driver for Comet PizzaHalifax2TheMax said:
And Reverend Wright, plus he was the records registrar in Hawaii prior to his current job.Bentleyspop said:
Not just a CIA plant also works for Israel, ISIS, Hamas, DNC, and the Clinton Global initiative.my2hands said:Let me guess, Chomsky is really just a CIA plant...
I've actually heard that one before lol0 -
Fell for the classic honey trap... seems obvious from where I'm standing. I would say you were a target.Drowned Out said:
Btw - I guess I’m a Russian target. I don’t ‘follow’ Sarah Abdallah as a news source. She added me as a friend on fb years ago. I accepted because she relays information from other sources in Syria that you don’t see in the mainstream: images of Christians celebrating Easter, the mass street parties after Aleppo was liberated etc.... And because, well....she’s hot I have no illusions about her bias, and none about yours, either.
Seen the news about Facebook lately?0 -
Do tell, what do you think my bias is? I'm intrigued0
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H2M
Obama resisted escalation and avoided going in "guns blazing." Obama knew it was a shit show and wanted no part of it. He reluctantly sent special forces and enforced a no fly zone. Yet that didn't deter Assad and the Russians from dropping barrel bombs of cholrine gas, not illegal to own but illegal to use as a weapon of war, from helicopters. Why do you think both Bibi and Putin were pissed at him? Because he resisted Israeli entreaties to go further but did enough to piss off Putin and his ally Assad. The West's moral dillema is always, do something and be criticized or do nothing and be criticized. Chemical weapons in the hands of ISIS would have been catastrophic and Assad needed to go. How he goes, or whether he goes, is what is up for debate, or should be.
Honestly, I like to believe that Obama was one president that had morals and did what he could within the confines of a divided government and a system that eats it's own if they get 'too' progressive. That said, he was not able to completely walk back the already rolling plans he inherited. Damned if we do, damned if we don't is an exceptionalist concept. You're telling me that american ego is so fragile that people complaining about a lack of humanitarianism is some kind of big problem for your nation? Since when does 'the Great Satan' give a flying fuck when they are 'damned'?
You will not for a second entertain the thought that maybe chemical weapons ARE in the hands of ISIS and that's what we are seeing?
Are you claiming that the reporting by Richard Engle, on the ground, as it unfolded, as well as that of other western, reputable journalists was a fabrication? I'd love to see the source of your "majority, non-local." And the "sectarian strife" you refer to was against Assad and his clan/sect.
Haven’t read it, or don’t recall it. I’ll check it out.
i posted the source on the previous page. US government sources. Read it and let me know what you think. I also posted detailed info about the Libya-syria connections in the previous Syria thread here, look it up.
The sectarian strife...do you know what you’re talking about here? Assad’s Ba’athist party is part of the Alawite Shi’a ‘sect’....he is a secular ruler. The rebels, even the supposed ‘moderates’, are wahhabi salafists....you know, the extreme Sunni ‘sect’ promoted by the Saudis and other gulf monarchies (and Israel, lately)? They want to destroy relations with Iran and set up a their caliphate, partially on Syrian land. These are the people you are portraying as democratic protestors.
My question was rhetorical. Some on here, despite where you land, think Assad is a nice guy. If Assad wanted to be a peaceful vision loving opthamologist, why didn't he stay in London?
I have stated my position about Assad. In that region, armed to the teeth by foreign players and full of religious extremists, what chance does a secular ruler stand without some brutality? Not saying I support it, but let’s hear your alternatives. A lot of people admit overthrowing another Ba’athist ruler who maintained relative peace while being an asshole (Hussein), was a mistake as the country devolved into sectarian chaos and led to ISIS. Did we learn anything?
Why? If Assad/Putin didn't use them, why not allow unfettered access to the victims and sites? The UN/OPCW sources others have cited, and yet others have relied upon and then changed their mind and doubted them, have previously pointed to the Assad regime as being responsible for previous attacks. You don't think Putin had the guy poisoned with plumonium and wasn't responsible for the latest incident in Britain? Really? You doubt who is currently using chemical weapons in Syria?
I think the answer to access to the attack sites is similar to the answer re sarah’s interview. They have not shown complete impartiality, so why give them more ammo? That said, I haven’t researched this particular attack and the reactions by all players to enough depth to give an informed opinion on that.
And yes, I have serious doubts about russia’s Involvement in the skripal case.
Then Sarah is lazy and its just another way to "discredit" the MSM, which all follows Putin's playbook. Is the BBC the only western news outlet? Members of Parliment, US Congress, Der Speigel are not looking for credible news? I hate to break it to you but propaganda and disinformation have been around for a long, long time and Putin is using it profioundly, see Election, US, 2016. And I'll add because Russia can't beat the West militarily and they have no interest in going nuclear either, they're resorting to social media disinformation campaigns, and efectively so, I might add.
Right, the social media boogeyman. But the US doesn’t use propaganda. fair.
By "mainstream," do you mean by viewership or accuracy of reporting? You need to read the IC assessment of Russia interfering with our election. It spells it all out, who works for who, how they gained in popularity and how its propaganda on a major, industrial scale. I guess that makes Faux News worth watching because the claim to be "Fair and Balanced" and the most watched news outlet on television? How many western journalists have been killed for critizing their government or publishing, speaking out or exposing their government for misdeeds? How many have been killeed, jailed or gone missing in Putin's Russia or Assad's Syria for the same? Who was Hitler's first hire?
Again, the US and their allies are innocent? Where is he in-depth reporting on US ties to media? About CIA involvement in Hollywood? About news desk requests for compliance after 9/11. Gary Webb. Serena Shin. Michael Hastings. The Reprieve lawsuit. The kennedys. Half the fuckin media in Palestine. The trail of bodies following the Dixie mafia. You don’t think trump has ever had anyone offed? I am not standing up for Russia here. I’m interested in finding the truth, not picking sidesStop believing the myth.
no, you.0 -
American exceptionalism, anti-Russian, by the sound of it. You have fallen for your own R2P honey pot, judging by your world police advocacy in the other thread. At least I own itmy2hands said:Do tell, what do you think my bias is? I'm intrigued
Post edited by Drowned Out on0 -
I’m getting dizzy trying to follow this...0
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