PHILLY (Loosely Related to The Philadelphia Phillies)

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  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 34,289
    Only 3 years $75M. I love it even more. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    Phillies signing people like they won 96 games last year and are a piece or two from a World Series rather than losing 96 games. Dumb. Why lock in any money to old guys this year? Wait and see what you have.

    Because if they want any chance at the free agent studs next year, they have to show that they’re on the cusp of contending again.

    Love it 
    Yeah I mean, we have a 33 year old Jake Arrieta is a hell of a sales pitch to a 25 year old Harper looking at a 10+ year deal. Harper will be more sold with young guns and more financial flexibility 
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    edited March 2018
    I mean it’s a fine signing financially and he’s obviously a good pitcher, but it’s irrelevant and makes no difference on anything. If anything the Phillies have a really valuable trade piece at the deadline this year or next
    Post edited by Cliffy6745 on
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 34,289
    edited March 2018
    Phillies signing people like they won 96 games last year and are a piece or two from a World Series rather than losing 96 games. Dumb. Why lock in any money to old guys this year? Wait and see what you have.

    Because if they want any chance at the free agent studs next year, they have to show that they’re on the cusp of contending again.

    Love it 
    Yeah I mean, we have a 33 year old Jake Arrieta is a hell of a sales pitch to a 25 year old Harper looking at a 10+ year deal. Harper will be more sold with young guns and more financial flexibility 

    Dude, 3 years 75M on a team with a super low payroll to start is not really gonna hamper them financially. Their “young gun” pitching prospects are still a year or two away from the majors. 
    Bottom line is they desperately needed a pitcher and they signed the best one on the market to a pretty club friendly deal.

    And Harper is not going to a 73 win team. He’s more likely to come here if they can show they can contend for the playoffs and are only only a player or two away. These two signings can get them to that point. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    edited March 2018
    Phillies signing people like they won 96 games last year and are a piece or two from a World Series rather than losing 96 games. Dumb. Why lock in any money to old guys this year? Wait and see what you have.

    Because if they want any chance at the free agent studs next year, they have to show that they’re on the cusp of contending again.

    Love it 
    Yeah I mean, we have a 33 year old Jake Arrieta is a hell of a sales pitch to a 25 year old Harper looking at a 10+ year deal. Harper will be more sold with young guns and more financial flexibility 

    Dude, 3 years 75M on a team with a super low payroll to start is not really gonna hamper them financially. Their “young gun” pitching prospects are still a year or two away from the majors. 
    Bottom line is they desperately needed a pitcher and they signed the best one on the market to a pretty club friendly deal.

    And Harper is not going to a 73 win team. He’s more likely to come here if they can show they can contend for the playoffs and are only only a player or two away. These two signings can get them to that point. 
    That’s true. It’s not going to hamper them long term. I’m just not a big fan of the decision making process. If the Phillies make the wild card over the next 3 years they’re in good shape, why invest $25 mil a year in an old pitcher over that time frame?
    Post edited by Cliffy6745 on
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 34,289
    Phillies signing people like they won 96 games last year and are a piece or two from a World Series rather than losing 96 games. Dumb. Why lock in any money to old guys this year? Wait and see what you have.

    Because if they want any chance at the free agent studs next year, they have to show that they’re on the cusp of contending again.

    Love it 
    Yeah I mean, we have a 33 year old Jake Arrieta is a hell of a sales pitch to a 25 year old Harper looking at a 10+ year deal. Harper will be more sold with young guns and more financial flexibility 

    Dude, 3 years 75M on a team with a super low payroll to start is not really gonna hamper them financially. Their “young gun” pitching prospects are still a year or two away from the majors. 
    Bottom line is they desperately needed a pitcher and they signed the best one on the market to a pretty club friendly deal.

    And Harper is not going to a 73 win team. He’s more likely to come here if they can show they can contend for the playoffs and are only only a player or two away. These two signings can get them to that point. 
    That’s true. It’s not going to hamper them long term. I’m just not a big fan of the decision making process. If the Phillies make the wild card over the next 3 years they’re in good shape, why invest $25 mil a year in an old pitcher over that time frame?
    ....because he’s going to help them get to the wildcard which would make them more attractive to FA’s like Bryce Harper next year. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 16,665
    edited March 2018
    When does Trout come home?
    Post edited by F Me In The Brain on
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    edited March 2018
    Phillies signing people like they won 96 games last year and are a piece or two from a World Series rather than losing 96 games. Dumb. Why lock in any money to old guys this year? Wait and see what you have.

    Because if they want any chance at the free agent studs next year, they have to show that they’re on the cusp of contending again.

    Love it 
    Yeah I mean, we have a 33 year old Jake Arrieta is a hell of a sales pitch to a 25 year old Harper looking at a 10+ year deal. Harper will be more sold with young guns and more financial flexibility 

    Dude, 3 years 75M on a team with a super low payroll to start is not really gonna hamper them financially. Their “young gun” pitching prospects are still a year or two away from the majors. 
    Bottom line is they desperately needed a pitcher and they signed the best one on the market to a pretty club friendly deal.

    And Harper is not going to a 73 win team. He’s more likely to come here if they can show they can contend for the playoffs and are only only a player or two away. These two signings can get them to that point. 
    That’s true. It’s not going to hamper them long term. I’m just not a big fan of the decision making process. If the Phillies make the wild card over the next 3 years they’re in good shape, why invest $25 mil a year in an old pitcher over that time frame?
    ....because he’s going to help them get to the wildcard which would make them more attractive to FA’s like Bryce Harper next year. 
    So you sign a 30 something year old pitcher trending in the wrong direction to go from terrible to mediocre to hopefully sell a guy on taking a potential $500 million contract? Again, Jake Arrieta and Harper or machado have nothing to do with one another. They’d potentially play together on maybe one or two half way decent teams

    Regardless, it’s a pointless signing that may sell
    some tickets and will add a couple wins perhaps. 

    I cant wait for the yanks/Phils series. Already have tickets for all theee games 
    Post edited by Cliffy6745 on
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 34,289
    edited March 2018
    Yeah, gonna go ahead and just disagree here, Cliff.

    You sign a 32 year old pitcher who pitched really well in the second half of last season to a team friendly 3 year deal to go from below average to potentially pretty good. Flawed, but they’ve got a chance to be a pretty decent team next year now with a better rotation. Offense was going to score runs regardless. 

    As I said before, if you’re Harper, you’re not signing with some mid 70 win team. Show him you can contend a bit this year, which I think they can now with Arrieta and Santana, and you are a lot more attractive to him and other FA’s next offseason. 

    The patience by Kentak here is commendable. Was worried they’d go 4 years. Glad they waited this out. 

    You mentiond earlier they at least have a chip to move at the deadline. True, but they also have a lot of ammo to be buyers too. 



    By the way—Congrats on Cuse somehow finding their way into the tourney
    Post edited by The Juggler on
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  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 16,665
    College basketball is a total sham.  Bring on baseball and hockey playoffs.  
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    edited March 2018
    Yeah, gonna go ahead and just disagree here, Cliff.

    You sign a 32 year old pitcher who pitched really well in the second half of last season to a team friendly 3 year deal to go from below average to potentially pretty good. Flawed, but they’ve got a chance to be a pretty decent team next year now with a better rotation. Offense was going to score runs regardless. 

    As I said before, if you’re Harper, you’re not signing with some mid 70 win team. Show him you can contend a bit this year, which I think they can now with Arrieta and Santana, and you are a lot more attractive to him and other FA’s next offseason. 

    The patience by Kentak here is commendable. Was worried they’d go 4 years. Glad they waited this out. 

    You mentiond earlier they at least have a chip to move at the deadline. True, but they also have a lot of ammo to be buyers too. 



    By the way—Congrats on Cuse somehow finding their way into the tourney

    Dude, I was gonna give up but Harper understands the fact that if arrieta/Santana take the team from 60 something wins to 70 something wins, they’ll be long Fucking gone before he’s winning anything with them. It’s not complicated. I repeat Harper is not signing with the Phillies because of Jake fucking arrieta. That’s comical.  

    Even if the philliea sign one of them, it’s because of the contract, not Jake Arrieta. Just stop.
    Post edited by Cliffy6745 on
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    edited March 2018
    Philly inquirer in January 2019 “Phils sign Harper to $400 million contract over 12 years. Harper accepts because of Jake Arrieta signing”
  • Jearlpam0925Jearlpam0925 Deep South PhillyPosts: 11,597
    Extremely friendly deal for the Phils. Solid signing for a guy that takes care of the problem of not knowing who your #2 or #3 is beyond Nola.

    And, Cliff, I'm glad your better-than-thou, arrogant, low brow Yankee attitude is back. I missed it.
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    Extremely friendly deal for the Phils. Solid signing for a guy that takes care of the problem of not knowing who your #2 or #3 is beyond Nola.

    And, Cliff, I'm glad your better-than-thou, arrogant, low brow Yankee attitude is back. I missed it.
    I’m here to serve. A very Carlos Beltran yankees signing if I say so myself. Then again, last time the yanks only won 67 games I was 7, so what the fuck do I know. Hahah.
  • Jearlpam0925Jearlpam0925 Deep South PhillyPosts: 11,597
    Sixty six. Christ, get it right.
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    Sixty six. Christ, get it right.
    God dammit, cliff 
  • Jearlpam0925Jearlpam0925 Deep South PhillyPosts: 11,597
    Ah, I get it now, that last time they won 67. But, yeah, I've seen way worse.

    But act like you've been there before, amirite?
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    Ah, I get it now, that last time they won 67. But, yeah, I've seen way worse.

    But act like you've been there before, amirite?
    Something like that.

    I’m looking forward and rooting for the Phillies to be good, anything to take some attention away from the trash ass eagles 
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 16,665
    I want the Phillies to stink, get great seats for less money when they stink.
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • Jearlpam0925Jearlpam0925 Deep South PhillyPosts: 11,597
    " the trash ass eagles"...this makes me sooo happy. I cannot remove the smile from my face right now if I wanted to.
  • WobbieWobbie Posts: 25,153
    every time Arrieta touches the brim of  his flat brim hat, I want to slap that fucker.
    If I had known then what I know now...

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  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 34,289
    edited March 2018
    Yeah, gonna go ahead and just disagree here, Cliff.

    You sign a 32 year old pitcher who pitched really well in the second half of last season to a team friendly 3 year deal to go from below average to potentially pretty good. Flawed, but they’ve got a chance to be a pretty decent team next year now with a better rotation. Offense was going to score runs regardless. 

    As I said before, if you’re Harper, you’re not signing with some mid 70 win team. Show him you can contend a bit this year, which I think they can now with Arrieta and Santana, and you are a lot more attractive to him and other FA’s next offseason. 

    The patience by Kentak here is commendable. Was worried they’d go 4 years. Glad they waited this out. 

    You mentiond earlier they at least have a chip to move at the deadline. True, but they also have a lot of ammo to be buyers too. 



    By the way—Congrats on Cuse somehow finding their way into the tourney

    Dude, I was gonna give up but Harper understands the fact that if arrieta/Santana take the team from 60 something wins to 70 something wins, they’ll be long Fucking gone before he’s winning anything with them. It’s not complicated. I repeat Harper is not signing with the Phillies because of Jake fucking arrieta. That’s comical.  

    Even if the philliea sign one of them, it’s because of the contract, not Jake Arrieta. Just stop.
    Ha, maybe you should have. 

    It wouldn’t be because of Arrieta. It would be because he helped shed the perception that the team is still in rebuild mode. Harper and the other top tier ‘19 FA’s are not coming to any team coming off a 70-74ish win season. Thus, yes, bringing in guys like Arrieta and Santana makes them more attractive to those guys next year. 


    City of Champions, Cliff. Get used to it. We’re gonna be super annoying for a super long ass time. 
    Post edited by The Juggler on
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 34,289
    I want the Phillies to stink, get great seats for less money when they stink.
    Sorry to disappoint. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    edited March 2018
    Yeah, gonna go ahead and just disagree here, Cliff.

    You sign a 32 year old pitcher who pitched really well in the second half of last season to a team friendly 3 year deal to go from below average to potentially pretty good. Flawed, but they’ve got a chance to be a pretty decent team next year now with a better rotation. Offense was going to score runs regardless. 

    As I said before, if you’re Harper, you’re not signing with some mid 70 win team. Show him you can contend a bit this year, which I think they can now with Arrieta and Santana, and you are a lot more attractive to him and other FA’s next offseason. 

    The patience by Kentak here is commendable. Was worried they’d go 4 years. Glad they waited this out. 

    You mentiond earlier they at least have a chip to move at the deadline. True, but they also have a lot of ammo to be buyers too. 



    By the way—Congrats on Cuse somehow finding their way into the tourney

    Dude, I was gonna give up but Harper understands the fact that if arrieta/Santana take the team from 60 something wins to 70 something wins, they’ll be long Fucking gone before he’s winning anything with them. It’s not complicated. I repeat Harper is not signing with the Phillies because of Jake fucking arrieta. That’s comical.  

    Even if the philliea sign one of them, it’s because of the contract, not Jake Arrieta. Just stop.
    Ha, maybe you should have. 

    It wouldn’t be because of Arrieta. It would be because he helped shed the perception that the team is still in rebuild mode. Harper and the other top tier ‘19 FA’s are not coming to any team coming off a 70-74ish win season. Thus, yes, bringing in guys like Arrieta and Santana makes them more attractive to those guys next year. 


    City of Champions, Cliff. Get used to it. We’re gonna be super annoying for a super long ass time. 
    But regardless, they are still in a rebuild. They’re not fooling anyone

    yanks are winning the World Series before the phils, so I’m not worried.

    I thought you people would be much worse with the eagles. I dreaded that day or so long and it hasn’t been half bad 
    Post edited by Cliffy6745 on
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 34,289
    Yeah, gonna go ahead and just disagree here, Cliff.

    You sign a 32 year old pitcher who pitched really well in the second half of last season to a team friendly 3 year deal to go from below average to potentially pretty good. Flawed, but they’ve got a chance to be a pretty decent team next year now with a better rotation. Offense was going to score runs regardless. 

    As I said before, if you’re Harper, you’re not signing with some mid 70 win team. Show him you can contend a bit this year, which I think they can now with Arrieta and Santana, and you are a lot more attractive to him and other FA’s next offseason. 

    The patience by Kentak here is commendable. Was worried they’d go 4 years. Glad they waited this out. 

    You mentiond earlier they at least have a chip to move at the deadline. True, but they also have a lot of ammo to be buyers too. 



    By the way—Congrats on Cuse somehow finding their way into the tourney

    Dude, I was gonna give up but Harper understands the fact that if arrieta/Santana take the team from 60 something wins to 70 something wins, they’ll be long Fucking gone before he’s winning anything with them. It’s not complicated. I repeat Harper is not signing with the Phillies because of Jake fucking arrieta. That’s comical.  

    Even if the philliea sign one of them, it’s because of the contract, not Jake Arrieta. Just stop.
    Ha, maybe you should have. 

    It wouldn’t be because of Arrieta. It would be because he helped shed the perception that the team is still in rebuild mode. Harper and the other top tier ‘19 FA’s are not coming to any team coming off a 70-74ish win season. Thus, yes, bringing in guys like Arrieta and Santana makes them more attractive to those guys next year. 


    City of Champions, Cliff. Get used to it. We’re gonna be super annoying for a super long ass time. 
    But regardless, they are still in a rebuild. They’re not fooling anyone

    yanks are winning the World Series before the phils, so I’m not worried.

    I thought you people would be much worse with the eagles. I dreaded that day or so long and it hasn’t been half bad 
    Rebuild’s over. Now, beat it. 
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 16,665
    Hahaha.  Philly and NY love.
    It's great.
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • eeriepadaveeeriepadave West Chester, PAPosts: 31,012
    was out when I heard the Phills got him.  I was shocked but pretty happy :smile:
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  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    edited March 2018
    Yeah, gonna go ahead and just disagree here, Cliff.

    You sign a 32 year old pitcher who pitched really well in the second half of last season to a team friendly 3 year deal to go from below average to potentially pretty good. Flawed, but they’ve got a chance to be a pretty decent team next year now with a better rotation. Offense was going to score runs regardless. 

    As I said before, if you’re Harper, you’re not signing with some mid 70 win team. Show him you can contend a bit this year, which I think they can now with Arrieta and Santana, and you are a lot more attractive to him and other FA’s next offseason. 

    The patience by Kentak here is commendable. Was worried they’d go 4 years. Glad they waited this out. 

    You mentiond earlier they at least have a chip to move at the deadline. True, but they also have a lot of ammo to be buyers too. 



    By the way—Congrats on Cuse somehow finding their way into the tourney

    Dude, I was gonna give up but Harper understands the fact that if arrieta/Santana take the team from 60 something wins to 70 something wins, they’ll be long Fucking gone before he’s winning anything with them. It’s not complicated. I repeat Harper is not signing with the Phillies because of Jake fucking arrieta. That’s comical.  

    Even if the philliea sign one of them, it’s because of the contract, not Jake Arrieta. Just stop.
    Ha, maybe you should have. 

    It wouldn’t be because of Arrieta. It would be because he helped shed the perception that the team is still in rebuild mode. Harper and the other top tier ‘19 FA’s are not coming to any team coming off a 70-74ish win season. Thus, yes, bringing in guys like Arrieta and Santana makes them more attractive to those guys next year. 


    City of Champions, Cliff. Get used to it. We’re gonna be super annoying for a super long ass time. 
    But regardless, they are still in a rebuild. They’re not fooling anyone

    yanks are winning the World Series before the phils, so I’m not worried.

    I thought you people would be much worse with the eagles. I dreaded that day or so long and it hasn’t been half bad 
    Rebuild’s over. Now, beat it. 
    Rebuilds over. Ya’ll almost lost 100 games less than 6 months ago. Definitely on the right track, but simmer down now
    Post edited by Cliffy6745 on
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Behind that bush over there.Posts: 34,289
    edited March 2018
    Yeah, gonna go ahead and just disagree here, Cliff.

    You sign a 32 year old pitcher who pitched really well in the second half of last season to a team friendly 3 year deal to go from below average to potentially pretty good. Flawed, but they’ve got a chance to be a pretty decent team next year now with a better rotation. Offense was going to score runs regardless. 

    As I said before, if you’re Harper, you’re not signing with some mid 70 win team. Show him you can contend a bit this year, which I think they can now with Arrieta and Santana, and you are a lot more attractive to him and other FA’s next offseason. 

    The patience by Kentak here is commendable. Was worried they’d go 4 years. Glad they waited this out. 

    You mentiond earlier they at least have a chip to move at the deadline. True, but they also have a lot of ammo to be buyers too. 



    By the way—Congrats on Cuse somehow finding their way into the tourney

    Dude, I was gonna give up but Harper understands the fact that if arrieta/Santana take the team from 60 something wins to 70 something wins, they’ll be long Fucking gone before he’s winning anything with them. It’s not complicated. I repeat Harper is not signing with the Phillies because of Jake fucking arrieta. That’s comical.  

    Even if the philliea sign one of them, it’s because of the contract, not Jake Arrieta. Just stop.
    Ha, maybe you should have. 

    It wouldn’t be because of Arrieta. It would be because he helped shed the perception that the team is still in rebuild mode. Harper and the other top tier ‘19 FA’s are not coming to any team coming off a 70-74ish win season. Thus, yes, bringing in guys like Arrieta and Santana makes them more attractive to those guys next year. 


    City of Champions, Cliff. Get used to it. We’re gonna be super annoying for a super long ass time. 
    But regardless, they are still in a rebuild. They’re not fooling anyone

    yanks are winning the World Series before the phils, so I’m not worried.

    I thought you people would be much worse with the eagles. I dreaded that day or so long and it hasn’t been half bad 
    Rebuild’s over. Now, beat it. 
    Rebuilds over. Ya’ll almost lost 100 games less than 6 months ago 
    Welp....what exactly does last year have to do with this year’s goal? The Sixers won 10 games two years ago and 26 last year. 

    By definition, the end of a rebuild is pretty much the point when the team decides they’ve made enough moves and want to be judged by their won/loss record again and not just by player development. That point is now. Sorry, but 80+ wins is not as unrealistic for this team as you probably think. I believe their pecota projection was 78 before the Arrieta signing. 

    Go. Phils 
    Post edited by The Juggler on
    chinese-happy.jpg
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 28,855
    Yeah, gonna go ahead and just disagree here, Cliff.

    You sign a 32 year old pitcher who pitched really well in the second half of last season to a team friendly 3 year deal to go from below average to potentially pretty good. Flawed, but they’ve got a chance to be a pretty decent team next year now with a better rotation. Offense was going to score runs regardless. 

    As I said before, if you’re Harper, you’re not signing with some mid 70 win team. Show him you can contend a bit this year, which I think they can now with Arrieta and Santana, and you are a lot more attractive to him and other FA’s next offseason. 

    The patience by Kentak here is commendable. Was worried they’d go 4 years. Glad they waited this out. 

    You mentiond earlier they at least have a chip to move at the deadline. True, but they also have a lot of ammo to be buyers too. 



    By the way—Congrats on Cuse somehow finding their way into the tourney

    Dude, I was gonna give up but Harper understands the fact that if arrieta/Santana take the team from 60 something wins to 70 something wins, they’ll be long Fucking gone before he’s winning anything with them. It’s not complicated. I repeat Harper is not signing with the Phillies because of Jake fucking arrieta. That’s comical.  

    Even if the philliea sign one of them, it’s because of the contract, not Jake Arrieta. Just stop.
    Ha, maybe you should have. 

    It wouldn’t be because of Arrieta. It would be because he helped shed the perception that the team is still in rebuild mode. Harper and the other top tier ‘19 FA’s are not coming to any team coming off a 70-74ish win season. Thus, yes, bringing in guys like Arrieta and Santana makes them more attractive to those guys next year. 


    City of Champions, Cliff. Get used to it. We’re gonna be super annoying for a super long ass time. 
    But regardless, they are still in a rebuild. They’re not fooling anyone

    yanks are winning the World Series before the phils, so I’m not worried.

    I thought you people would be much worse with the eagles. I dreaded that day or so long and it hasn’t been half bad 
    Rebuild’s over. Now, beat it. 
    Rebuilds over. Ya’ll almost lost 100 games less than 6 months ago 
    Welp....what exactly does last year have to do with this year’s goal? The Sixers won 10 games two years ago and 26 last year. 

    By definition, the end of a rebuild is pretty much the point when the team decides they’ve made enough moves and want to be judged by their won/loss record again and not just by player development. That point is now. Sorry, but 80+ wins is not as unrealistic for this team as you probably think. I believe their pecota projection was 78 before the Arrieta signing. 

    Go. Phils 
    Um, the sixers two best players this year didn’t play last so the point isn’t mildly comparable. The Phillies did not add an embiid and Simmons. 

    Set high expectations. That’s fine. They’re still rebuilding. Even if they win 80 games, that’s rebuilding as I hope that’s not the ultimate goal.

    I like the Phillies and want them to do well. This city is a whole lot more fun when they’re good. They’re gonna have a ton of money, some real nice pieces (one of which they insist on playing out of position for some stupid reason) and should have a bright future. Even if they have made some questionable free agent signings just for the sake of it
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