Political Correctness is BS

brianlux · February 2018

I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.

lastexitlondon · February 2018

Dream catchers ? I did not know that could be offencive . They are sold here at markets and they are common in peoples house windows. Well i live and learn

Big Bank Hank · February 2018

brianlux said:

I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.

well so is the name Washington Redskins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR-tbOxlhvE

mace1229 · February 2018

brianlux said:

I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.

In all seriousness, should we stop celebrating St. Patrick's day then? We wear green and sometimes other clothing or funny hats and get drunk. I know people who drink more that day than any other year. that to me seems far more offensive than wearing a Sombrero.
But my opinion both are meant to be fun and not insulting to anyone. So I don't have a problem with it. I just don't see how someone could find a sombrero offensive/example of cultural appropriation but not have much bigger issue with how we celebrate St Patty's day.
Just let people have fun, no one is harming anyone.

lastexitlondon · February 2018

Im with that here in England st. Patricks day is an excuse for english people to get pissed and wear stupid Guinness hats that are typically like a leprechauns hat. Its pathetic. Nobody irish in the pub. Everyone in uk knows 17th march. But couldn't tell you st.davids day. St.Andrews day or st. George's day.

brianlux · February 2018

lastexitlondon said:

Dream catchers ? I did not know that could be offencive . They are sold here at markets and they are common in peoples house windows. Well i live and learn

I try do do the same!

brianlux · February 2018

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.

In all seriousness, should we stop celebrating St. Patrick's day then? We wear green and sometimes other clothing or funny hats and get drunk. I know people who drink more that day than any other year. that to me seems far more offensive than wearing a Sombrero.
But my opinion both are meant to be fun and not insulting to anyone. So I don't have a problem with it. I just don't see how someone could find a sombrero offensive/example of cultural appropriation but not have much bigger issue with how we celebrate St Patty's day.
Just let people have fun, no one is harming anyone.

How do Irish people feel about St. Patricks day and wearing green hats? I honestly don't know. Educate me.

But I will tell you this, I know for a fact that many American Indians and Hispanics are offended by whites appropriating their culture. Why not educate yourself on that subject? What harm can that do?

lastexitlondon · February 2018

Im always open to learn and be shown new ways and ideas. I believe it makes a wise person.

PJ_Soul · February 2018

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

Back to the original topic.
You know it is BS when it is considered racist to wear a sombrero and serve Mexican food on a college campus for Cinco de Mayo.

This is called "cultural appropriation" which, by definition, is racist. One does not need to be "PC" to understand this.

I actually totally disagree with that. I think this whole cultural appropriation thing has raged completely out of control. Yes, in some cases I agree it's offensive. But in so many others, I think the label is being completely misused and it's ridiculous. I think this is one of those times. Honestly, if wearing a sombrero at a Cinco de Mayo celebration is offensive, then I don't give a shit about the people who are offended, because that's just dumb and way overly sensitive. Now, if those people also run around yelling "Ay-yi-yi, Tequila!!" and twirling fake moustaches and totally mocking Mexicans through cartoonish stereotypes, then yeah, someone who get offended has a leg to stand on.

rgambs · February 2018

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.

In all seriousness, should we stop celebrating St. Patrick's day then? We wear green and sometimes other clothing or funny hats and get drunk. I know people who drink more that day than any other year. that to me seems far more offensive than wearing a Sombrero.
But my opinion both are meant to be fun and not insulting to anyone. So I don't have a problem with it. I just don't see how someone could find a sombrero offensive/example of cultural appropriation but not have much bigger issue with how we celebrate St Patty's day.
Just let people have fun, no one is harming anyone.

It's not the sombrero itself that is a problem, it's the total lack of shits given about the history and culture of the people being represented with token symbols.
When sombreros and tacos and tequila are the average American's total knowledge of Mexican culture, you aren't doing anything but reinforcing the idea that there's no need to learn more about Mexico, you've got it covered...tacos and sombreros and tequila on May 5th.

St. Patty's Day is pretty offensive to Irish people who don't like to drink and fight, but I think the reason it isn't made into a big deal is because it isn't a minority race or a separate culture.
We are talking about "western culture" of which Irish is only a subset. When average American white folks lampoon Irish people they are lampooning themselves, to certain extent even if they have a clear heritage that isn't Irish.
Most of us have a mixed heritage of UK and continental (mostly German) Europe, and that's a perfect example of the breadth of western culture.
Reducing "the other" to stereotypes is a much bigger deal than doing so to your own tribe.

Big Bank Hank · February 2018

rgambs said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.

In all seriousness, should we stop celebrating St. Patrick's day then? We wear green and sometimes other clothing or funny hats and get drunk. I know people who drink more that day than any other year. that to me seems far more offensive than wearing a Sombrero.
But my opinion both are meant to be fun and not insulting to anyone. So I don't have a problem with it. I just don't see how someone could find a sombrero offensive/example of cultural appropriation but not have much bigger issue with how we celebrate St Patty's day.
Just let people have fun, no one is harming anyone.

It's not the sombrero itself that is a problem, it's the total lack of shits given about the history and culture of the people being represented with token symbols.
When sombreros and tacos and tequila are the average American's total knowledge of Mexican culture, you aren't doing anything but reinforcing the idea that there's no need to learn more about Mexico, you've got it covered...tacos and sombreros and tequila on May 5th.

St. Patty's Day is pretty offensive to Irish people who don't like to drink and fight, but I think the reason it isn't made into a big deal is because it isn't a minority race or a separate culture.
We are talking about "western culture" of which Irish is only a subset. When average American white folks lampoon Irish people they are lampooning themselves, to certain extent even if they have a clear heritage that isn't Irish.
Most of us have a mixed heritage of UK and continental (mostly German) Europe, and that's a perfect example of the breadth of western culture.
Reducing "the other" to stereotypes is a much bigger deal than doing so to your own tribe.

I like enchiladas & corned beef, but don't pretend to know a whole bunch about Mexican or Irish culture, although I do respect their cultures

mace1229 · February 2018

Completely agree with PJSoul 100%. I think some can take it to far, but most dont, and I think it is a little too sensitive (and being to PC).

For Brian, I don't see how that makes a difference. Just because they are also white means it can't be offensive? People make fun of Canadians and Polish and other white groups in a way that is intended to be offensive. People make fun of certain regions of their own country, its like saying making fun of a southern redneck and their culture is okay because they are making fun of themselves in a way.

I don't think color or heritage makes a difference. If you think all whites are the same and have the same heritage or isn't a separate culture, then I dare you to find someone from Guatemala and call them a Mexican and see what happens.

But I also don't think in either scenario it is meant to poke fun at either group. Its an excuse to just have fun. We BBQ and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July, most probably know very little about our historical roots but just want an excuse to shoot fireworks and BBQ, just like we wear green and drink in March or have our fill of tacos and margaritas in May. Its just an excuse to have fun, not intended to poke fun at anyone, and I think anyone who does get offended by a hat and a taco is being a little too senstitive.

PJ_Soul · February 2018

Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.

PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.

jeffbr · February 2018

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.

In all seriousness, should we stop celebrating St. Patrick's day then? We wear green and sometimes other clothing or funny hats and get drunk. I know people who drink more that day than any other year. that to me seems far more offensive than wearing a Sombrero.
But my opinion both are meant to be fun and not insulting to anyone. So I don't have a problem with it. I just don't see how someone could find a sombrero offensive/example of cultural appropriation but not have much bigger issue with how we celebrate St Patty's day.
Just let people have fun, no one is harming anyone.

Oh, people choose to be offended about anything. Cultural appropriation has now dictated that white women can't wear hoop earrings without offending some black women. And don't even think about white guys with dreads or cornrows.

I think context and respect are relevant in this discussion, but the cultural appropriation zealots seem to have a very narrow view of what is acceptable. Two white women making burritos based on a researched tortilla recipe? Cultural appropriation! We covered this topic last year (http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/264471/taking-offense-has-it-gone-off-the-rails/p1), so I'm not interested in completely rehashing it, but just as context matters in the words we use, it should also matter in the actions we take, the clothes we wear, etc... Natives in Santa Fe are happy to sell Dreamcatchers to any whites/blacks/Asians at the Indian Market in the Plaza. They certainly aren't offended by people wanting to bring home a memento from their trip, where they probably also got a little taste of cultural diversity. It can be a positive thing. As soon as someone gets offended, it is suddenly cultural appropriation to hang a Dreamcatcher (that was made by a native, and supports their modest lifestyle)? Nope. If someone is offended, that's on them, and they need to reconcile it. This hard core cultural appropriation nonsense will lead us to further segregate ourselves for fear of offending. I'm not buying into it. No, I'm not going to put on a Native American head dress (again, context & respect). But I might display some Hopi pottery, or a Kokopelli doll at home, because I find the work beautiful, and because these things remind me of positive experiences I've had travelling the Southwest in New Mexico and Arizona. I celebrate Octoberfest, but I'm not German. I speak the language, have lived in the country, etc... but I'm not German, so is that not allowed? Or is it that because this is a white, European culture, nobody cares if their stuff is appropriated? I have Japanese style art tattooed down one arm. I love Japanese history and legend, codes of honor among warriors. Have I committed cultural appropriation simply because I find something beautiful or meaningful, but happen to be the wrong color/race/ethnicity? I sometimes attend a Croatian picnic around here. I like the traditional music and the food. But I have no Croatian blood running through my veins. If I get up and dance to some tamburitza music, have I now committed cultural appropriation? (or maybe I get a pass here because my father in law was born in and fled Yugoslavia in WWII)

Where is the line? Who gets to decide? What is the magic number of offended people before it becomes a valid example of cultural appropriation? I love all sorts of different cultures, traditions and history. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to allow people to dictate which cultures I'm precluded from celebrating and/or honoring due to my melanin-deficient, Nordic skin. Again, it is about context and respect.

Halifax2TheMax · February 2018

PJ_Soul said:

Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.

PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.

P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/27/funkmaster-george-clinton-tired-constant-whining-cultural-appropriation/

Big Bank Hank · February 2018

PJ_Soul said:

Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.

PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.

it's cool, it's a very interesting discussion that I am enjoy following, so please by all means carry on

jeffbr · February 2018

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.

PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.

P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/27/funkmaster-george-clinton-tired-constant-whining-cultural-appropriation/

Nice! I love this from George: “It’s all one world, one planet and one groove. You’re supposed to learn from each other, blend from each other, and it moves around like that.”

Big Bank Hank · February 2018

jeffbr said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.

PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.

P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/27/funkmaster-george-clinton-tired-constant-whining-cultural-appropriation/

Nice! I love this from George: “It’s all one world, one planet and one groove. You’re supposed to learn from each other, blend from each other, and it moves around like that.”

George Clinton's awesome, I love Funkadelic

PJ_Soul · February 2018

Yeah, right on George Clinton. Screaming about "owning" cultural symbolism only puts up more barriers.

Halifax2TheMax · February 2018

jeffbr said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJ_Soul said:

Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.

PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.

P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/27/funkmaster-george-clinton-tired-constant-whining-cultural-appropriation/

Nice! I love this from George: “It’s all one world, one planet and one groove. You’re supposed to learn from each other, blend from each other, and it moves around like that.”

Mothership Connection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSERB93GYfw

Political Correctness is BS

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