I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.
In all seriousness, should we stop celebrating St. Patrick's day then? We wear green and sometimes other clothing or funny hats and get drunk. I know people who drink more that day than any other year. that to me seems far more offensive than wearing a Sombrero. But my opinion both are meant to be fun and not insulting to anyone. So I don't have a problem with it. I just don't see how someone could find a sombrero offensive/example of cultural appropriation but not have much bigger issue with how we celebrate St Patty's day. Just let people have fun, no one is harming anyone.
It's not the sombrero itself that is a problem, it's the total lack of shits given about the history and culture of the people being represented with token symbols. When sombreros and tacos and tequila are the average American's total knowledge of Mexican culture, you aren't doing anything but reinforcing the idea that there's no need to learn more about Mexico, you've got it covered...tacos and sombreros and tequila on May 5th.
St. Patty's Day is pretty offensive to Irish people who don't like to drink and fight, but I think the reason it isn't made into a big deal is because it isn't a minority race or a separate culture. We are talking about "western culture" of which Irish is only a subset. When average American white folks lampoon Irish people they are lampooning themselves, to certain extent even if they have a clear heritage that isn't Irish. Most of us have a mixed heritage of UK and continental (mostly German) Europe, and that's a perfect example of the breadth of western culture. Reducing "the other" to stereotypes is a much bigger deal than doing so to your own tribe.
I like enchiladas & corned beef, but don't pretend to know a whole bunch about Mexican or Irish culture, although I do respect their cultures
Completely agree with PJSoul 100%. I think some can take it to far, but most dont, and I think it is a little too sensitive (and being to PC).
For Brian, I don't see how that makes a difference. Just because they are also white means it can't be offensive? People make fun of Canadians and Polish and other white groups in a way that is intended to be offensive. People make fun of certain regions of their own country, its like saying making fun of a southern redneck and their culture is okay because they are making fun of themselves in a way.
I don't think color or heritage makes a difference. If you think all whites are the same and have the same heritage or isn't a separate culture, then I dare you to find someone from Guatemala and call them a Mexican and see what happens.
But I also don't think in either scenario it is meant to poke fun at either group. Its an excuse to just have fun. We BBQ and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July, most probably know very little about our historical roots but just want an excuse to shoot fireworks and BBQ, just like we wear green and drink in March or have our fill of tacos and margaritas in May. Its just an excuse to have fun, not intended to poke fun at anyone, and I think anyone who does get offended by a hat and a taco is being a little too senstitive.
Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.
In all seriousness, should we stop celebrating St. Patrick's day then? We wear green and sometimes other clothing or funny hats and get drunk. I know people who drink more that day than any other year. that to me seems far more offensive than wearing a Sombrero. But my opinion both are meant to be fun and not insulting to anyone. So I don't have a problem with it. I just don't see how someone could find a sombrero offensive/example of cultural appropriation but not have much bigger issue with how we celebrate St Patty's day. Just let people have fun, no one is harming anyone.
Oh, people choose to be offended about anything. Cultural appropriation has now dictated that white women can't wear hoop earrings without offending some black women. And don't even think about white guys with dreads or cornrows.
I think context and respect are relevant in this discussion, but the cultural appropriation zealots seem to have a very narrow view of what is acceptable. Two white women making burritos based on a researched tortilla recipe? Cultural appropriation! We covered this topic last year (http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/264471/taking-offense-has-it-gone-off-the-rails/p1), so I'm not interested in completely rehashing it, but just as context matters in the words we use, it should also matter in the actions we take, the clothes we wear, etc... Natives in Santa Fe are happy to sell Dreamcatchers to any whites/blacks/Asians at the Indian Market in the Plaza. They certainly aren't offended by people wanting to bring home a memento from their trip, where they probably also got a little taste of cultural diversity. It can be a positive thing. As soon as someone gets offended, it is suddenly cultural appropriation to hang a Dreamcatcher (that was made by a native, and supports their modest lifestyle)? Nope. If someone is offended, that's on them, and they need to reconcile it. This hard core cultural appropriation nonsense will lead us to further segregate ourselves for fear of offending. I'm not buying into it. No, I'm not going to put on a Native American head dress (again, context & respect). But I might display some Hopi pottery, or a Kokopelli doll at home, because I find the work beautiful, and because these things remind me of positive experiences I've had travelling the Southwest in New Mexico and Arizona. I celebrate Octoberfest, but I'm not German. I speak the language, have lived in the country, etc... but I'm not German, so is that not allowed? Or is it that because this is a white, European culture, nobody cares if their stuff is appropriated? I have Japanese style art tattooed down one arm. I love Japanese history and legend, codes of honor among warriors. Have I committed cultural appropriation simply because I find something beautiful or meaningful, but happen to be the wrong color/race/ethnicity? I sometimes attend a Croatian picnic around here. I like the traditional music and the food. But I have no Croatian blood running through my veins. If I get up and dance to some tamburitza music, have I now committed cultural appropriation? (or maybe I get a pass here because my father in law was born in and fled Yugoslavia in WWII)
Where is the line? Who gets to decide? What is the magic number of offended people before it becomes a valid example of cultural appropriation? I love all sorts of different cultures, traditions and history. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to allow people to dictate which cultures I'm precluded from celebrating and/or honoring due to my melanin-deficient, Nordic skin. Again, it is about context and respect.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?
Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
it's cool, it's a very interesting discussion that I am enjoy following, so please by all means carry on
Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?
Nice! I love this from George: “It’s all one world, one planet and one groove. You’re supposed to learn from each other, blend from each other, and it moves around like that.”
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?
Nice! I love this from George: “It’s all one world, one planet and one groove. You’re supposed to learn from each other, blend from each other, and it moves around like that.”
Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?
Nice! I love this from George: “It’s all one world, one planet and one groove. You’re supposed to learn from each other, blend from each other, and it moves around like that.”
Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?
Nice! I love this from George: “It’s all one world, one planet and one groove. You’re supposed to learn from each other, blend from each other, and it moves around like that.”
Well yeah... the problem with being so sensitive that anyone donning a sombrero at a Taco stand is being racist, all that's really accomplishing is giving people a lot more reasons to be pissed off at each other. Yes, there is a line. But the line has just been drawn way too close to too many people now, and it's causing far more problems than its intended to solve. It seems to me like being overly PC is the same as expecting everyone to be perfect. It factors out the fact that humans act human, for better or worse. I am NOT saying that "being human" is an excuse to act like a stupid asshole or to mock other cultures. But come on... now an innocent person having a shot of tequila and a taco and putting on a sombrero that was likely exported out of Mexico at a cinqo de mayo party is offensive and racist? All that does is create more divisiveness, when in reality that person enjoying the taco is probably perfectly nice and not racist at all. So how is screaming "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!" at the slightest little thing helpful to society? To Minorities or the majority? It's not. It's making society worse a lot of the time..... At the end of the day, I think what I'm saying is that everyone needs to calm the fuck down and stop turning every tiny detail into a big fucking deal. If total equality and mutual respect is the goal, this knee-jerk attitude is the wrongest possible way to go about it. People have to slow down, chill out, and understand that these issues take real time.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
P-Funk y’all, I like my funk fucked up. George? Was that you?
Nice! I love this from George: “It’s all one world, one planet and one groove. You’re supposed to learn from each other, blend from each other, and it moves around like that.”
That's the stuff. I remember buying Mothership Connection in 1977! Give Up the Funk (Tear the Roof Off the Sucker) was a radio hit the previous year, and that album ended up on regular rotation on my turntable for years. Life long P-Funk fan!
I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.
Back to the original topic. You know it is BS when it is considered racist to wear a sombrero and serve Mexican food on a college campus for Cinco de Mayo.
This is called "cultural appropriation" which, by definition, is racist. One does not need to be "PC" to understand this.
I actually totally disagree with that. I think this whole cultural appropriation thing has raged completely out of control. Yes, in some cases I agree it's offensive. But in so many others, I think the label is being completely misused and it's ridiculous. I think this is one of those times. Honestly, if wearing a sombrero at a Cinco de Mayo celebration is offensive, then I don't give a shit about the people who are offended, because that's just dumb and way overly sensitive. Now, if those people also run around yelling "Ay-yi-yi, Tequila!!" and twirling fake moustaches and totally mocking Mexicans through cartoonish stereotypes, then yeah, someone who get offended has a leg to stand on.
Please consider reading Sherman Alexie's latest book, You Don't Have to Say You Love Me. You may not agree with Alexie either but he makes the case so much more eloquently that I can and by reading him you're more likely to give a shit.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.
"Native Americans call themselves many things. The one thing they don't..."
Right on.
the term Redskin was used by the bounty hunters for the dead Indians they would bring back, this is disgusting, no wonder they hate that term, I would be pretty pissed off too, they way the talk about them is disgusting, they actually make Donald Trump look not as bad, as impossible as that seems
I don't really think wearing a sombrero necessarily makes someone a racist but I do think putting non Hispanic employees in traditional Mexican garb is an example of cultural appropriation. Same thing with white people wearing Native American beaded shoes or hanging a Dreamcatcher from a rear view mirror. Those acts are insulting to indigenous peoples. Just ask them or read Sherman Alexie.
In all seriousness, should we stop celebrating St. Patrick's day then? We wear green and sometimes other clothing or funny hats and get drunk. I know people who drink more that day than any other year. that to me seems far more offensive than wearing a Sombrero. But my opinion both are meant to be fun and not insulting to anyone. So I don't have a problem with it. I just don't see how someone could find a sombrero offensive/example of cultural appropriation but not have much bigger issue with how we celebrate St Patty's day. Just let people have fun, no one is harming anyone.
Oh, people choose to be offended about anything. Cultural appropriation has now dictated that white women can't wear hoop earrings without offending some black women. And don't even think about white guys with dreads or cornrows.
I think context and respect are relevant in this discussion, but the cultural appropriation zealots seem to have a very narrow view of what is acceptable. Two white women making burritos based on a researched tortilla recipe? Cultural appropriation! We covered this topic last year (http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/264471/taking-offense-has-it-gone-off-the-rails/p1), so I'm not interested in completely rehashing it, but just as context matters in the words we use, it should also matter in the actions we take, the clothes we wear, etc... Natives in Santa Fe are happy to sell Dreamcatchers to any whites/blacks/Asians at the Indian Market in the Plaza. They certainly aren't offended by people wanting to bring home a memento from their trip, where they probably also got a little taste of cultural diversity. It can be a positive thing. As soon as someone gets offended, it is suddenly cultural appropriation to hang a Dreamcatcher (that was made by a native, and supports their modest lifestyle)? Nope. If someone is offended, that's on them, and they need to reconcile it. This hard core cultural appropriation nonsense will lead us to further segregate ourselves for fear of offending. I'm not buying into it. No, I'm not going to put on a Native American head dress (again, context & respect). But I might display some Hopi pottery, or a Kokopelli doll at home, because I find the work beautiful, and because these things remind me of positive experiences I've had travelling the Southwest in New Mexico and Arizona. I celebrate Octoberfest, but I'm not German. I speak the language, have lived in the country, etc... but I'm not German, so is that not allowed? Or is it that because this is a white, European culture, nobody cares if their stuff is appropriated? I have Japanese style art tattooed down one arm. I love Japanese history and legend, codes of honor among warriors. Have I committed cultural appropriation simply because I find something beautiful or meaningful, but happen to be the wrong color/race/ethnicity? I sometimes attend a Croatian picnic around here. I like the traditional music and the food. But I have no Croatian blood running through my veins. If I get up and dance to some tamburitza music, have I now committed cultural appropriation? (or maybe I get a pass here because my father in law was born in and fled Yugoslavia in WWII)
Where is the line? Who gets to decide? What is the magic number of offended people before it becomes a valid example of cultural appropriation? I love all sorts of different cultures, traditions and history. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to allow people to dictate which cultures I'm precluded from celebrating and/or honoring due to my melanin-deficient, Nordic skin. Again, it is about context and respect.
I like this. I agree
brixton 93
astoria 06
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,310
Completely agree with PJSoul 100%. I think some can take it to far, but most dont, and I think it is a little too sensitive (and being to PC).
For Brian, I don't see how that makes a difference. Just because they are also white means it can't be offensive? People make fun of Canadians and Polish and other white groups in a way that is intended to be offensive. People make fun of certain regions of their own country, its like saying making fun of a southern redneck and their culture is okay because they are making fun of themselves in a way.
I don't think color or heritage makes a difference. If you think all whites are the same and have the same heritage or isn't a separate culture, then I dare you to find someone from Guatemala and call them a Mexican and see what happens.
But I also don't think in either scenario it is meant to poke fun at either group. Its an excuse to just have fun. We BBQ and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July, most probably know very little about our historical roots but just want an excuse to shoot fireworks and BBQ, just like we wear green and drink in March or have our fill of tacos and margaritas in May. Its just an excuse to have fun, not intended to poke fun at anyone, and I think anyone who does get offended by a hat and a taco is being a little too senstitive.
a). I don't take dares. b) I'm not that stupid c) I'm half-Amish so, yeah, I totally understand about white subcultures.
Are you Hispanic or Native American? If not, how would you know how it feels to be in a culture that has been subject to genocide, acculturation and displacement? And why would you judge another person for being "too sensitive" if you haven't been in their shoes? Or why would you judge a person for being "too sensitive" in the first place?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Again great point brian. Everyone is sensitive. Every human
I think so, lastexit, only those of us who are highly sensitive are often criticized or put down for being so.
And if anyone here hasn't guessed it, yes, I am what is clinically known as a "highly sensitive person", both physically and emotionally and I'm not ashamed of that at all. It's not always fun and in fact, being highly sensitive can be brutal but it also can be rapturous.
But I'm not trying to glorify being highly sensitive. I know people who are very controlled in their sensitivity, people who are very calm and level who do some marvelous things.
All people are sensitive to one degree or another and we can all contribute in our own way. Many highly sensitive people are very creative or socially motivated or whatever and many who are more on the pragmatic side can be heroes or inventors or what ever.
If we learn to respect the spectrum then we, as a whole, can do marvelous and wonderful things.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Again great point brian. Everyone is sensitive. Every human
I think so, lastexit, only those of us who are highly sensitive are often criticized or put down for being so.
And if anyone here hasn't guessed it, yes, I am what is clinically known as a "highly sensitive person", both physically and emotionally and I'm not ashamed of that at all. It's not always fun and in fact, being highly sensitive can be brutal but it also can be rapturous.
But I'm not trying to glorify being highly sensitive. I know people who are very controlled in their sensitivity, people who are very calm and level who do some marvelous things.
All people are sensitive to one degree or another and we can all contribute in our own way. Many highly sensitive people are very creative or socially motivated or whatever and many who are more on the pragmatic side can be heroes or inventors or what ever.
If we learn to respect the spectrum then we, as a whole, can do marvelous and wonderful things.
Sensitive people can be heroes too. I count my father among them.
I inherited that from him, for better or worse (not the heroism, but how I, energy, others, the whole lot, get to me at times). Never once have I felt made fun of for that by anyone but myself.
Guess there's some middle-ground between that side, and learning to deal with some of the shit that life brings.
Sensitive people can be heroes too. I count my father among them.
I inherited that from him, for better or worse (not the heroism, but how I, energy, others, the whole lot, get to me at times). Never once have I felt made fun of for that by anyone but myself.
Guess there's some middle-ground between that side, and learning to deal with some of the shit that life brings.
Because it always will.
Just be decent, for fuck's sake.
so true, Bill & Ted said something to that effect, a little simplified, and I apologize in advance for the meme, I think it fits though
And this thread is done. All the love wins. Excellent last couple posts. I too am over sensitive and proud. My children are very kind considerate and loving. Humanity is the winner.
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
And this thread is done. All the love wins. Excellent last couple posts. I too am over sensitive and proud. My children are very kind considerate and loving. Humanity is the winner.
it's awesome when the love starts flowing, those are the best times in the Ten Club, well except the setlist threads, those are awesome
Brian - it’s very interesting. When I was practicing as an engineer, I took a corporate skills profiling (affective understanding assessment), which 300 questions later showed me in the 99th percentile of empathy within the industry, and very high outside of it as well.
Our HR manager told me that empathy is one of the most valuable or dangerous skills to possess. He warned me that if you can’t control your empathy, it can control you, and lead to depression and overwhelmed feelings on a regular basis, since you see and feel the ills of the world so intensely. He also suggested that people will exploit the over-sensitive who are in denial or shameful about having this characteristic, and suggested that by embracing it, I can leverage it to become a natural leader who people will want to be on my side.
I’m only 28, but that HR manager may as well have been Nostradamus to me. I’ve been through the depression, I’ve been emotionally exploited by people who saw my empathy as weakness, and am only now starting to see the light. My teams and I love working together, and where I used to assign tasks or deliverables - they readily volunteer to accomplish them now, and do so on-time and with excellent quality.
My major changes have been a commitment to understanding how any change or project will benefit my team, prior to teaching those benefits to them. The assignment and subsequent completion of those projects gets done almost like magic, it’s unbelievable.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Brian - it’s very interesting. When I was practicing as an engineer, I took a corporate skills profiling (affective understanding assessment), which 300 questions later showed me in the 99th percentile of empathy within the industry, and very high outside of it as well.
Our HR manager told me that empathy is one of the most valuable or dangerous skills to possess. He warned me that if you can’t control your empathy, it can control you, and lead to depression and overwhelmed feelings on a regular basis, since you see and feel the ills of the world so intensely. He also suggested that people will exploit the over-sensitive who are in denial or shameful about having this characteristic, and suggested that by embracing it, I can leverage it to become a natural leader who people will want to be on my side.
I’m only 28, but that HR manager may as well have been Nostradamus to me. I’ve been through the depression, I’ve been emotionally exploited by people who saw my empathy as weakness, and am only now starting to see the light. My teams and I love working together, and where I used to assign tasks or deliverables - they readily volunteer to accomplish them now, and do so on-time and with excellent quality.
My major changes have been a commitment to understanding how any change or project will benefit my team, prior to teaching those benefits to them. The assignment and subsequent completion of those projects gets done almost like magic, it’s unbelievable.
I totally agree.
brixton 93
astoria 06
albany 06
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reading 06
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paris 06
wembley 07
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Completely agree with PJSoul 100%. I think some can take it to far, but most dont, and I think it is a little too sensitive (and being to PC).
For Brian, I don't see how that makes a difference. Just because they are also white means it can't be offensive? People make fun of Canadians and Polish and other white groups in a way that is intended to be offensive. People make fun of certain regions of their own country, its like saying making fun of a southern redneck and their culture is okay because they are making fun of themselves in a way.
I don't think color or heritage makes a difference. If you think all whites are the same and have the same heritage or isn't a separate culture, then I dare you to find someone from Guatemala and call them a Mexican and see what happens.
But I also don't think in either scenario it is meant to poke fun at either group. Its an excuse to just have fun. We BBQ and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July, most probably know very little about our historical roots but just want an excuse to shoot fireworks and BBQ, just like we wear green and drink in March or have our fill of tacos and margaritas in May. Its just an excuse to have fun, not intended to poke fun at anyone, and I think anyone who does get offended by a hat and a taco is being a little too senstitive.
a). I don't take dares. b) I'm not that stupid c) I'm half-Amish so, yeah, I totally understand about white subcultures.
Are you Hispanic or Native American? If not, how would you know how it feels to be in a culture that has been subject to genocide, acculturation and displacement? And why would you judge another person for being "too sensitive" if you haven't been in their shoes? Or why would you judge a person for being "too sensitive" in the first place?
I just think there are a lot bigger and better things to worry about and occupy one's time. My take on your response was essentially Irish people shouldn't get upset over St. Patrick's Day because white people are from Europe, mostly Germany or England and that is basically the same as Irish so we are just poking fun of ourselves. I disagree with that reasoning, but agree we shouldn't get upset. At least to me, intent has a lot to do with something being offensive. While I'm sure it happens, a school cafeteria wearing a sombrero and serving tacos for Cinco de Mayo has zero intentions of insulting any culture. It's just a day to have fun and do something different. I think everyone of average intelligence knows Mexicans don't wear sombreros hardly ever, and understands it is just a cultural costume that only a few wear, but what other article of clothing is as easily identified? I also don't get why I need to be a victim of genocide to be offended? If I visited Canada and everyone dressed like an inbred redneck and acted like they had a first grade education (traits that are meant to be insulting) for the 4th of July, I would find that offensive. If they just wear a cowboy hat and boots and grilled some hamburgers I would not.
Completely agree with PJSoul 100%. I think some can take it to far, but most dont, and I think it is a little too sensitive (and being to PC).
For Brian, I don't see how that makes a difference. Just because they are also white means it can't be offensive? People make fun of Canadians and Polish and other white groups in a way that is intended to be offensive. People make fun of certain regions of their own country, its like saying making fun of a southern redneck and their culture is okay because they are making fun of themselves in a way.
I don't think color or heritage makes a difference. If you think all whites are the same and have the same heritage or isn't a separate culture, then I dare you to find someone from Guatemala and call them a Mexican and see what happens.
But I also don't think in either scenario it is meant to poke fun at either group. Its an excuse to just have fun. We BBQ and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July, most probably know very little about our historical roots but just want an excuse to shoot fireworks and BBQ, just like we wear green and drink in March or have our fill of tacos and margaritas in May. Its just an excuse to have fun, not intended to poke fun at anyone, and I think anyone who does get offended by a hat and a taco is being a little too senstitive.
a). I don't take dares. b) I'm not that stupid c) I'm half-Amish so, yeah, I totally understand about white subcultures.
Are you Hispanic or Native American? If not, how would you know how it feels to be in a culture that has been subject to genocide, acculturation and displacement? And why would you judge another person for being "too sensitive" if you haven't been in their shoes? Or why would you judge a person for being "too sensitive" in the first place?
I just think there are a lot bigger and better things to worry about and occupy one's time. My take on your response was essentially Irish people shouldn't get upset over St. Patrick's Day because white people are from Europe, mostly Germany or England and that is basically the same as Irish so we are just poking fun of ourselves. I disagree with that reasoning, but agree we shouldn't get upset. At least to me, intent has a lot to do with something being offensive. While I'm sure it happens, a school cafeteria wearing a sombrero and serving tacos for Cinco de Mayo has zero intentions of insulting any culture. It's just a day to have fun and do something different. I think everyone of average intelligence knows Mexicans don't wear sombreros hardly ever, and understands it is just a cultural costume that only a few wear, but what other article of clothing is as easily identified? I also don't get why I need to be a victim of genocide to be offended? If I visited Canada and everyone dressed like an inbred redneck and acted like they had a first grade education (traits that are meant to be insulting) for the 4th of July, I would find that offensive. If they just wear a cowboy hat and boots and grilled some hamburgers I would not.
The “Germans are basically the same as Irish?” Fuck. And all this time I’ve been eating bratwurst and sauerkraut when I could have had corned beef and non stinky cabbage?
Completely agree with PJSoul 100%. I think some can take it to far, but most dont, and I think it is a little too sensitive (and being to PC).
For Brian, I don't see how that makes a difference. Just because they are also white means it can't be offensive? People make fun of Canadians and Polish and other white groups in a way that is intended to be offensive. People make fun of certain regions of their own country, its like saying making fun of a southern redneck and their culture is okay because they are making fun of themselves in a way.
I don't think color or heritage makes a difference. If you think all whites are the same and have the same heritage or isn't a separate culture, then I dare you to find someone from Guatemala and call them a Mexican and see what happens.
But I also don't think in either scenario it is meant to poke fun at either group. Its an excuse to just have fun. We BBQ and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July, most probably know very little about our historical roots but just want an excuse to shoot fireworks and BBQ, just like we wear green and drink in March or have our fill of tacos and margaritas in May. Its just an excuse to have fun, not intended to poke fun at anyone, and I think anyone who does get offended by a hat and a taco is being a little too senstitive.
a). I don't take dares. b) I'm not that stupid c) I'm half-Amish so, yeah, I totally understand about white subcultures.
Are you Hispanic or Native American? If not, how would you know how it feels to be in a culture that has been subject to genocide, acculturation and displacement? And why would you judge another person for being "too sensitive" if you haven't been in their shoes? Or why would you judge a person for being "too sensitive" in the first place?
I just think there are a lot bigger and better things to worry about and occupy one's time. My take on your response was essentially Irish people shouldn't get upset over St. Patrick's Day because white people are from Europe, mostly Germany or England and that is basically the same as Irish so we are just poking fun of ourselves. I disagree with that reasoning, but agree we shouldn't get upset. At least to me, intent has a lot to do with something being offensive. While I'm sure it happens, a school cafeteria wearing a sombrero and serving tacos for Cinco de Mayo has zero intentions of insulting any culture. It's just a day to have fun and do something different. I think everyone of average intelligence knows Mexicans don't wear sombreros hardly ever, and understands it is just a cultural costume that only a few wear, but what other article of clothing is as easily identified? I also don't get why I need to be a victim of genocide to be offended? If I visited Canada and everyone dressed like an inbred redneck and acted like they had a first grade education (traits that are meant to be insulting) for the 4th of July, I would find that offensive. If they just wear a cowboy hat and boots and grilled some hamburgers I would not.
The “Germans are basically the same as Irish?” Fuck. And all this time I’ve been eating bratwurst and sauerkraut when I could have had corned beef and non stinky cabbage?
that's hilarious, I love me some corned beef
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,310
Sensitive people can be heroes too. I count my father among them.
I inherited that from him, for better or worse (not the heroism, but how I, energy, others, the whole lot, get to me at times). Never once have I felt made fun of for that by anyone but myself.
Guess there's some middle-ground between that side, and learning to deal with some of the shit that life brings.
Because it always will.
Just be decent, for fuck's sake.
Right on, Hedo!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
For Brian, I don't see how that makes a difference. Just because they are also white means it can't be offensive? People make fun of Canadians and Polish and other white groups in a way that is intended to be offensive. People make fun of certain regions of their own country, its like saying making fun of a southern redneck and their culture is okay because they are making fun of themselves in a way.
I don't think color or heritage makes a difference. If you think all whites are the same and have the same heritage or isn't a separate culture, then I dare you to find someone from Guatemala and call them a Mexican and see what happens.
But I also don't think in either scenario it is meant to poke fun at either group. Its an excuse to just have fun. We BBQ and shoot fireworks on the 4th of July, most probably know very little about our historical roots but just want an excuse to shoot fireworks and BBQ, just like we wear green and drink in March or have our fill of tacos and margaritas in May. Its just an excuse to have fun, not intended to poke fun at anyone, and I think anyone who does get offended by a hat and a taco is being a little too senstitive.
PS - this kind of PCism isn't even close to what BBH had in mind when he started this thread as far as I can tell. BBH, I don't think you're talking about being PC at all. You're just talking about real honesty shared between us, and being PC isn't about that at all IMO. Yes, I agree, most people are not honest a lot of the time with their real thoughts and feelings. This is a bit of a mystery to me as well, and one of the main frustrations in my life too. I don't understand why people are like this, and it bugs me that I'm forced to function in a society where this is the norm. I find it stifling and boring.
I think context and respect are relevant in this discussion, but the cultural appropriation zealots seem to have a very narrow view of what is acceptable. Two white women making burritos based on a researched tortilla recipe? Cultural appropriation! We covered this topic last year (http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/264471/taking-offense-has-it-gone-off-the-rails/p1), so I'm not interested in completely rehashing it, but just as context matters in the words we use, it should also matter in the actions we take, the clothes we wear, etc... Natives in Santa Fe are happy to sell Dreamcatchers to any whites/blacks/Asians at the Indian Market in the Plaza. They certainly aren't offended by people wanting to bring home a memento from their trip, where they probably also got a little taste of cultural diversity. It can be a positive thing. As soon as someone gets offended, it is suddenly cultural appropriation to hang a Dreamcatcher (that was made by a native, and supports their modest lifestyle)? Nope. If someone is offended, that's on them, and they need to reconcile it. This hard core cultural appropriation nonsense will lead us to further segregate ourselves for fear of offending. I'm not buying into it. No, I'm not going to put on a Native American head dress (again, context & respect). But I might display some Hopi pottery, or a Kokopelli doll at home, because I find the work beautiful, and because these things remind me of positive experiences I've had travelling the Southwest in New Mexico and Arizona. I celebrate Octoberfest, but I'm not German. I speak the language, have lived in the country, etc... but I'm not German, so is that not allowed? Or is it that because this is a white, European culture, nobody cares if their stuff is appropriated? I have Japanese style art tattooed down one arm. I love Japanese history and legend, codes of honor among warriors. Have I committed cultural appropriation simply because I find something beautiful or meaningful, but happen to be the wrong color/race/ethnicity? I sometimes attend a Croatian picnic around here. I like the traditional music and the food. But I have no Croatian blood running through my veins. If I get up and dance to some tamburitza music, have I now committed cultural appropriation? (or maybe I get a pass here because my father in law was born in and fled Yugoslavia in WWII)
Where is the line? Who gets to decide? What is the magic number of offended people before it becomes a valid example of cultural appropriation? I love all sorts of different cultures, traditions and history. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to allow people to dictate which cultures I'm precluded from celebrating and/or honoring due to my melanin-deficient, Nordic skin. Again, it is about context and respect.
http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/27/funkmaster-george-clinton-tired-constant-whining-cultural-appropriation/
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSERB93GYfw
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPOexuFLJ8c
Right on.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
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this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
b) I'm not that stupid
c) I'm half-Amish so, yeah, I totally understand about white subcultures.
Are you Hispanic or Native American? If not, how would you know how it feels to be in a culture that has been subject to genocide, acculturation and displacement? And why would you judge another person for being "too sensitive" if you haven't been in their shoes? Or why would you judge a person for being "too sensitive" in the first place?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
And if anyone here hasn't guessed it, yes, I am what is clinically known as a "highly sensitive person", both physically and emotionally and I'm not ashamed of that at all. It's not always fun and in fact, being highly sensitive can be brutal but it also can be rapturous.
But I'm not trying to glorify being highly sensitive. I know people who are very controlled in their sensitivity, people who are very calm and level who do some marvelous things.
All people are sensitive to one degree or another and we can all contribute in our own way. Many highly sensitive people are very creative or socially motivated or whatever and many who are more on the pragmatic side can be heroes or inventors or what ever.
If we learn to respect the spectrum then we, as a whole, can do marvelous and wonderful things.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I inherited that from him, for better or worse (not the heroism, but how I, energy, others, the whole lot, get to me at times). Never once have I felt made fun of for that by anyone but myself.
Guess there's some middle-ground between that side, and learning to deal with some of the shit that life brings.
Because it always will.
Just be decent, for fuck's sake.
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
Our HR manager told me that empathy is one of the most valuable or dangerous skills to possess. He warned me that if you can’t control your empathy, it can control you, and lead to depression and overwhelmed feelings on a regular basis, since you see and feel the ills of the world so intensely. He also suggested that people will exploit the over-sensitive who are in denial or shameful about having this characteristic, and suggested that by embracing it, I can leverage it to become a natural leader who people will want to be on my side.
I’m only 28, but that HR manager may as well have been Nostradamus to me. I’ve been through the depression, I’ve been emotionally exploited by people who saw my empathy as weakness, and am only now starting to see the light. My teams and I love working together, and where I used to assign tasks or deliverables - they readily volunteer to accomplish them now, and do so on-time and with excellent quality.
My major changes have been a commitment to understanding how any change or project will benefit my team, prior to teaching those benefits to them. The assignment and subsequent completion of those projects gets done almost like magic, it’s unbelievable.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
astoria 06
albany 06
hartford 06
reading 06
barcelona 06
paris 06
wembley 07
dusseldorf 07
nijmegen 07
this song is meant to be called i got shit,itshould be called i got shit tickets-hartford 06 -
At least to me, intent has a lot to do with something being offensive. While I'm sure it happens, a school cafeteria wearing a sombrero and serving tacos for Cinco de Mayo has zero intentions of insulting any culture. It's just a day to have fun and do something different. I think everyone of average intelligence knows Mexicans don't wear sombreros hardly ever, and understands it is just a cultural costume that only a few wear, but what other article of clothing is as easily identified?
I also don't get why I need to be a victim of genocide to be offended? If I visited Canada and everyone dressed like an inbred redneck and acted like they had a first grade education (traits that are meant to be insulting) for the 4th of July, I would find that offensive. If they just wear a cowboy hat and boots and grilled some hamburgers I would not.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"