The Concept of God

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    brianlux said:
    If you're like those of us who see religion and God as a form of mythology (which is not a bad thing), but wonder what lies beyond life and worry about not seeing loved ones after death, this is my way of looking at it:  First, times spent with loved ones remain as memories.  Memories are thoughts and thoughts emanate out from our brains as low frequency waves similar to radio waves.  Those waves do not die.   That is science.  This I cannot prove, but I wonder, when thinking about loved ones, if our thoughts about them emanating out into the universe, eventually to mingle with the thoughts of our loved ones?  I think very possible so.  And if the loved one you miss is a parent (as I miss my mother) it's their DNA that made you what you are and in that way they live in you. 

    Another thing that is true in terms of science is that the atoms and molecules that make up the body also do not die.  All the water, air, carbon and minerals of every one who has lived  still exists and many of those atoms exist in our own bodies- including those of the saints and those of the most evil.  That's a weird thought but not so unsettling if you consider that our minds and bodies have the power to use those atoms and molecules for whatever purpose we choose, be it good or bad.  We can utilize Hitler's atoms and molecules toward altruistic purposes or incorporate Jack the Ripper's into working to cure a disease.
    I was watching a segment with Neil deGrasse Tyson the other day, and when asked about an afterlife, he included this, and I am of course parphrasing in this quote: "I will not get cremated, I will get buried, and the reason is, when you get cremated, your energy, which we know does not go away, as no energy can be destroyed, goes up into the air and eventually into space. When you are buried, your energy gets recycled into the earth by way of the animals and bacteria that are feeding on your decomposing body. I would rather be part of the earth again than be floating out somewhere in space". 

    The guy is fascinating to listen to. I follow him on Twitter, and read his stuff as much as I can. 
    That's cool!  I've always really liked the story about how writer Edward Abbey told his friend he wanted to be buried in the ground naturally- that is, no cremation, no embalming fluids, no sealed in concrete.  So when he died (at home, thank goodness!) his friend put his body in the back of a pick up truck, threw a tarp over him and took him way out "back of beyond" into the Sonoran desert, dug a good hole, buried his body and covered the grave with rocks.  His friends have kept this spot a secret all these years (he died in 1989).  I told my wife that if I go before her, I want something similar.  Of course, that's asking A LOT!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited June 2017
    RYME said:
    brianlux said:
    If you're like those of us who see religion and God as a form of mythology (which is not a bad thing), but wonder what lies beyond life and worry about not seeing loved ones after death, this is my way of looking at it:  First, times spent with loved ones remain as memories.  Memories are thoughts and thoughts emanate out from our brains as low frequency waves similar to radio waves.  Those waves do not die.   That is science.  This I cannot prove, but I wonder, when thinking about loved ones, if our thoughts about them emanating out into the universe, eventually to mingle with the thoughts of our loved ones?  I think very possible so.  And if the loved one you miss is a parent (as I miss my mother) it's their DNA that made you what you are and in that way they live in you. 

    Another thing that is true in terms of science is that the atoms and molecules that make up the body also do not die.  All the water, air, carbon and minerals of every one who has lived  still exists and many of those atoms exist in our own bodies- including those of the saints and those of the most evil.  That's a weird thought but not so unsettling if you consider that our minds and bodies have the power to use those atoms and molecules for whatever purpose we choose, be it good or bad.  We can utilize Hitler's atoms and molecules toward altruistic purposes or incorporate Jack the Ripper's into working to cure a disease.
    Or you can read Ecclesiastes chapter 12 and feel much better about your lost loved ones.  The first 5 verses pertain to the aging process getting old.  Verses 6 and 7 have to do with your soul (silver cord)(when these clay pots break) returning to God who gave it.
    When a person dies the flesh body goes back to the dirt or clay whatever you want to say it's made out of back to the Earth. Flesh bodies are temporary. But your spirit body returns to the Father that gave it.  And a much nicer place.  So your loved ones who have died/passed on, are not out here in a hole in the cold ground.
    They are with the Father in another dimension  that we cannot see at this time. So when you when you die or kick the bucket, pass on you will be there too with the Lord and all the people who you've lost over the years will be there too &; happy to greet you.
    God has an overall plan that he is ultimately in control of but individuals on an individual basis have free will that's correct. For instance he does not like it when one takes their own life, but if you choose to end your life somehow He's  not going to stop you if you choose to jump off a building you're going to go splat.  I've already discussed what He says we are supposed to do with murderors and rapists.  
    He Himself isn't going to float down her on a magic carpet every time someone is about to commit a terrible act and hit them in the face with a big stick.  That's what we are supposed to have laws and law enforcement for.
    And as we know accidents happen tree branch can fall on you from the tree on your head and down you go. I totally agree that it's a kind of a sad and wrong answer when people say it was God's plan that somebody died tragically.
    Flesh bodies are pretty fragile that's why we have to take care of them.
    Ecclesiastes as a great book in the Bible.
    Ecclesiastes is basically God's instructions on how to be happy in the flesh.
    Prayer is a very humbling thing. You have to be patient when asking for things and give things time.  It's also wize is too thank Him for whatever blessings you have, before you go asking for things.  He does indeed answer prayers.  Sometimes not right away.  Sometimes a decade will go by before you realize that He did in fact answer your prayer it just took time for you to see it..  
    Sometimes he won't give you something that you want because He knows that in the long run it would be bad for you.
    If my kid begs me for a rattlesnake, I'm not going to get it for him, because if you mess with a rattlesnake long enough it will bite you.
    But if you ask Him to lead guide direct and touch you, He will.
    Ecclesiates is a fine book.  Lot's of poetic language.  Lovely images of nature among other things.  Yes, I've read it.  But it does not make me feel better about my lost loved ones.  I know their spirits, which I see as the energy produced by their minds, are not in the cold ground but, indeed, are moving out into space.  I don't know about any Father there though, but then yes, if The Father = The Universe, then indeed, they are with... it (why is God always described by a male pronoun anyway?  Or sometimes female for that matter?) .  Other than stars, moon, planets, cosmic dust etc, I don't know of anything else "out there" but I don't find that worrisome at all because it is also infused with our energy as electrical waves that we send out.

    Which, by the way, is a good argument for having more good, positive thoughts than bad, negative ones.  :smile:
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • PJfanwillneverleave1
    PJfanwillneverleave1 Posts: 12,885
    edited June 2017
    Another concept I cant grasp is baptism.  I used to be a little uncomfortable during the awkward silence when someone asked me (especially some family) if I was going to  or why didn't I get my kids baptized. Now not so much.
     You could only imagine the answer I gave.
    So again, to the believers of god why must we baptize? Live and let live.
    Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited June 2017
    Another concept I cant grasp is baptism.  I used to be a little uncomfortable during the awkward silence when someone asked me (especially some family) if I was going to  or why didn't I get my kids baptized. Now not so much.
     You could only imagine the answer I gave.
    So again, to the believers of god why must we baptize? Live and let live.
    It's a concept I never fully understood.  I know it's supposed to symbolize purification or initiation into the church.  And it's generally done two ways:

    Sprinkling water on a babies head.  Are babies impure?  I don't think so.  Certainly they're not making a decision to join the church.

    Or:

    Immersion in water.  That's just kind of scary to me.  Have someone hold my nose and dunk me backwards and face up under water.  Sounds a bit too much like... no, I won't even say it.  A very strange custom.  No thanks. (Been there, done that, never again.)
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    brianlux said:
    Another concept I cant grasp is baptism.  I used to be a little uncomfortable during the awkward silence when someone asked me (especially some family) if I was going to  or why didn't I get my kids baptized. Now not so much.
     You could only imagine the answer I gave.
    So again, to the believers of god why must we baptize? Live and let live.
    It's a concept I never fully understood.  I know it's supposed to symbolize purification or initiation into the church.  And it's generally done two ways:

    Sprinkling water on a babies head.  Are babies impure?  I don't think so.  Certainly they're not making a decision to join the church.

    Or:

    Immersion in water.  That's just kind of scary to me.  Have someone hold my nose and dunk me backwards and face up under water.  Sounds a bit too much like... no, I won't even say it.  A very strange custom.  No thanks. (Been there, done that, never again.)
      Hmmmmmmm.  Mine was pretty stinky at times. Could have used more than a sprinkling of water.

    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    brianlux said:
    Another concept I cant grasp is baptism.  I used to be a little uncomfortable during the awkward silence when someone asked me (especially some family) if I was going to  or why didn't I get my kids baptized. Now not so much.
     You could only imagine the answer I gave.
    So again, to the believers of god why must we baptize? Live and let live.
    It's a concept I never fully understood.  I know it's supposed to symbolize purification or initiation into the church.  And it's generally done two ways:

    Sprinkling water on a babies head.  Are babies impure?  I don't think so.  Certainly they're not making a decision to join the church.

    Or:

    Immersion in water.  That's just kind of scary to me.  Have someone hold my nose and dunk me backwards and face up under water.  Sounds a bit too much like... no, I won't even say it.  A very strange custom.  No thanks. (Been there, done that, never again.)
      Hmmmmmmm.  Mine was pretty stinky at times. Could have used more than a sprinkling of water.

    I don't think they encourage that kind of baptism in church.  :whistle:
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Attaway77
    Attaway77 Posts: 3,703
    edited June 2017
    ". this is an honest question: how can he have a plan if he has no control over the situation?
    That's a great question and I don't know, none of us ever will till we meet our own death. If God/Jesus is there to greet us or we simply fall asleep and call it done with nothing there, we will never know till our time comes. I believe in it and when my life ends, if I'm wrong will it even matter? But what if it will? It's been great being part of this discussion with you all, it really has. I love it when humans can interact questioning everything in a somewhat civilized conversation "that's becoming rare these days like an old neighborhood being torn down for the next to come around". This is just something none of us will ever know the answer to. I officially bow out, time to get back to living while I still have the chance..... This has been good......
    Post edited by Attaway77 on
    1998 Dallas (7/5) 2006 San Fran (7/15,7/16) 2009 San Fran (8/28) 2010 Bristow (5/13) NY (5/21) 2011 Alpine Valley (9/3,9/4)
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  • RYME
    RYME Wisconsin Posts: 1,904
    Attaway77 said:
    ". this is an honest question: how can he have a plan if he has no control over the situation?
    That's a great question and I don't know, none of us ever will till we meet our own death. If God/Jesus is there to greet us or we simply fall asleep and call it done with nothing there, we will never know till our time comes. I believe in it and when my life ends, if I'm wrong will it even matter? But what if it will? It's been great being part of this discussion with you all, it really has. I love it when humans can interact questioning everything in a somewhat civilized conversation "that's becoming rare these days like an old neighborhood being torn down for the next to come around". This is just something none of us will ever know the answer to. I officially bow out, time to get back to living while I still have the chance..... This has been good.....
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,450
    Attaway77 said:
    ". this is an honest question: how can he have a plan if he has no control over the situation?
    That's a great question and I don't know, none of us ever will till we meet our own death. If God/Jesus is there to greet us or we simply fall asleep and call it done with nothing there, we will never know till our time comes. I believe in it and when my life ends, if I'm wrong will it even matter? But what if it will? It's been great being part of this discussion with you all, it really has. I love it when humans can interact questioning everything in a somewhat civilized conversation "that's becoming rare these days like an old neighborhood being torn down for the next to come around". This is just something none of us will ever know the answer to. I officially bow out, time to get back to living while I still have the chance..... This has been good......
    I know none of us know, but I'm asking the opinion of a believer. Do you think god can have both control and give us free will? Do you think god has a plan, or just "god created everything, he lets everything do as it will, and he controls heaven" type of thing?

    that is one thing that needed to be said as you did: as long as you aren't hurting anyone with your beliefs, it doesn't matter if you are wrong, as you won't know. Unless of course there is a god and he turns his back on those who didn't believe in this life and they are left in purgatory for all eternity. Then that might kinda suck. 
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    Attaway77 said:
    ". this is an honest question: how can he have a plan if he has no control over the situation?
    That's a great question and I don't know, none of us ever will till we meet our own death. If God/Jesus is there to greet us or we simply fall asleep and call it done with nothing there, we will never know till our time comes. I believe in it and when my life ends, if I'm wrong will it even matter? But what if it will? It's been great being part of this discussion with you all, it really has. I love it when humans can interact questioning everything in a somewhat civilized conversation "that's becoming rare these days like an old neighborhood being torn down for the next to come around". This is just something none of us will ever know the answer to. I officially bow out, time to get back to living while I still have the chance..... This has been good......
    I know none of us know, but I'm asking the opinion of a believer. Do you think god can have both control and give us free will? Do you think god has a plan, or just "god created everything, he lets everything do as it will, and he controls heaven" type of thing?

    that is one thing that needed to be said as you did: as long as you aren't hurting anyone with your beliefs, it doesn't matter if you are wrong, as you won't know. Unless of course there is a god and he turns his back on those who didn't believe in this life and they are left in purgatory for all eternity. Then that might kinda suck. 
    If only this weren't true for fundamentalists of all religions! Fanatical adherence to religions is the root cause of some of the wars throughout history.  To fight, kill even, ever something unprovable*  and intangible seems insane to me.

    *spell check seems to think this is not a word.  Yes, no?
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,450
    for sure, Brian, but most today aren't fundamentalists. 

    unprovable checks out for me. Although my spellcheck is Canadian. :lol:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    for sure, Brian, but most today aren't fundamentalists. 

    unprovable checks out for me. Although my spellcheck is Canadian. :lol:
    Shouldn't it be "unprouvable ", then ;)
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • ponytd
    ponytd Nashville Posts: 671
    Another concept I cant grasp is baptism.  I used to be a little uncomfortable during the awkward silence when someone asked me (especially some family) if I was going to  or why didn't I get my kids baptized. Now not so much.
     You could only imagine the answer I gave.
    So again, to the believers of god why must we baptize? Live and let live.
    As a believer, I too sometimes question baptism. I am not baptized. I believe that God exists. I believe that Jesus was his son and was sent to usher out the old law and bring in the new. I know that John baptized Jesus and that people were baptized after that. You were to believe and repent and be baptized. But, and someone correct me if I'm wrong please, it was man who said to be baptized. John 3:16, which I'm sure everyone knows, says to believe in Jesus and you shall be saved. Jews do not get baptized. So since they don't believe in baptism, are they not going to Heaven? Like someone else said, babies are baptized in the Catholic church after their birth. But they can't believe and repent. What have they done wrong? 1 Corinthians 12 talks about being baptized in the spirit, but doesn't mention any water exactly.

    I have nothing against baptism. And I definitely don't think there is anything wrong with it or with someone who wants to get baptized and I may get baptized one day, but like I've said before, we all have these different beliefs based on the same book. Man has interpreted it for his own behalf. I guess I need to do more research, but yeah, there are Christians out there who wonder about it too
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,662
    edited June 2017
    My sister and I aren't baptized (why would we be, right?), but my sister married a guy who was a non-practicing Catholic, and then divorced him. Then the guy tried to marry another Catholic, and the church wouldn't let him get married again because he was divorced, lol, but from a non-Catholic marriage. So the only way around it was to get the Catholic Church to ceremonially annul the first marriage, but without the participation of my sister. And the only way the Church would annul it for him was to confirm that he had married an unbaptized woman... apparently, his marriage to my sister was considered illegitimate by the Church because she was never baptized, as well as because they didn't marry under the Church. So he simply asked me if she'd been baptized and I said no.... and that was supposedly enough proof as far as the Catholic Church is concerned - no proof necessary - and it annulled a marriage that never even happened with the Church in the first place (presumably, they would have refused to marry them if they'd asked, unless my sister got baptized). A Justice of the Peace married them. I am not sure where in the fuck the Catholic Church gets off doing that to be honest. My sister never agreed to any form of annulment ... somehow she didn't matter at all to the Catholic Church because she wasn't baptized, but at the same time she mattered enough for the Church to "rule" the marriage she was in as illegitimate. Why in the hell does the Church have to "annul" a marriage that they also supposedly don't acknowledge since it was never sanctioned by them in the first place? So incredibly stupid. It really makes no sense. Plus, the whole thing is obviously so lax - you can apparently tell them whatever you want and they just go ahead without proving anything, which simply proves that even the Church knows its full of shit.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,450
    I only know Austin 3:16 - Stone Cold just whipped your ass! 

    In all seriousness, if there is one thing about my brother's religion that makes some sense to me, is that you don't get baptized against your will. it happens as an adult when you can make an informed decision about it. But I still find it odd what baptism illustrates: god doesn't recognize you as a pure soul until you are baptized, so if a baby dies prior to getting baptized, their soul remains in purgatory forever. that's kinda fucked up, no? damning the soul of a dead baby for all eternity?
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,662
    I only know Austin 3:16 - Stone Cold just whipped your ass! 

    In all seriousness, if there is one thing about my brother's religion that makes some sense to me, is that you don't get baptized against your will. it happens as an adult when you can make an informed decision about it. But I still find it odd what baptism illustrates: god doesn't recognize you as a pure soul until you are baptized, so if a baby dies prior to getting baptized, their soul remains in purgatory forever. that's kinda fucked up, no? damning the soul of a dead baby for all eternity?
    It's beyond fucked up. The whole idea of being punished after death is fucked up in general.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • FoxyRedLa
    FoxyRedLa Lauren / MI Posts: 4,810
    ponytd said:
    Another concept I cant grasp is baptism.  I used to be a little uncomfortable during the awkward silence when someone asked me (especially some family) if I was going to  or why didn't I get my kids baptized. Now not so much.
     You could only imagine the answer I gave.
    So again, to the believers of god why must we baptize? Live and let live.
    As a believer, I too sometimes question baptism. I am not baptized. I believe that God exists. I believe that Jesus was his son and was sent to usher out the old law and bring in the new. I know that John baptized Jesus and that people were baptized after that. You were to believe and repent and be baptized. But, and someone correct me if I'm wrong please, it was man who said to be baptized. John 3:16, which I'm sure everyone knows, says to believe in Jesus and you shall be saved. Jews do not get baptized. So since they don't believe in baptism, are they not going to Heaven? Like someone else said, babies are baptized in the Catholic church after their birth. But they can't believe and repent. What have they done wrong? 1 Corinthians 12 talks about being baptized in the spirit, but doesn't mention any water exactly.

    I have nothing against baptism. And I definitely don't think there is anything wrong with it or with someone who wants to get baptized and I may get baptized one day, but like I've said before, we all have these different beliefs based on the same book. Man has interpreted it for his own behalf. I guess I need to do more research, but yeah, there are Christians out there who wonder about it too
    I believe Matthew says Jesus said to baptize. 

    Catholic believe their children are born with a I think it's been referred to as a fallen nature they are to be baptized.
    Oh please let it rain today.
    Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
  • FoxyRedLa
    FoxyRedLa Lauren / MI Posts: 4,810
    PJ_Soul said:
    My sister and I aren't baptized (why would we be, right?), but my sister married a guy who was a non-practicing Catholic, and then divorced him. Then the guy tried to marry another Catholic, and the church wouldn't let him get married again because he was divorced, lol, but from a non-Catholic marriage. So the only way around it was to get the Catholic Church to ceremonially annul the first marriage, but without the participation of my sister. And the only way the Church would annul it for him was to confirm that he had married an unbaptized woman... apparently, his marriage to my sister was considered illegitimate by the Church because she was never baptized, as well as because they didn't marry under the Church. So he simply asked me if she'd been baptized and I said no.... and that was supposedly enough proof as far as the Catholic Church is concerned - no proof necessary - and it annulled a marriage that never even happened with the Church in the first place (presumably, they would have refused to marry them if they'd asked, unless my sister got baptized). A Justice of the Peace married them. I am not sure where in the fuck the Catholic Church gets off doing that to be honest. My sister never agreed to any form of annulment ... somehow she didn't matter at all to the Catholic Church because she wasn't baptized, but at the same time she mattered enough for the Church to "rule" the marriage she was in as illegitimate. Why in the hell does the Church have to "annul" a marriage that they also supposedly don't acknowledge since it was never sanctioned by them in the first place? So incredibly stupid. It really makes no sense. Plus, the whole thing is obviously so lax - you can apparently tell them whatever you want and they just go ahead without proving anything, which simply proves that even the Church knows its full of shit.
    I agree. Completely jacked up. Many churches Catholic and Lutheran included in my experience chase more people away than they welcome. 
    Oh please let it rain today.
    Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
  • FoxyRedLa
    FoxyRedLa Lauren / MI Posts: 4,810
    I only know Austin 3:16 - Stone Cold just whipped your ass! 

    In all seriousness, if there is one thing about my brother's religion that makes some sense to me, is that you don't get baptized against your will. it happens as an adult when you can make an informed decision about it. But I still find it odd what baptism illustrates: god doesn't recognize you as a pure soul until you are baptized, so if a baby dies prior to getting baptized, their soul remains in purgatory forever. that's kinda fucked up, no? damning the soul of a dead baby for all eternity?
    I don't know but the limbo thing is Catholicism related? I'm not certain but I think the newer Catholic Catechism no longer refers to limbo. But traditionally yes Catholics believe babies are dammed if not baptized. I almost feel like the Bible doesn't address if someone dies before they're baptized soooooooo anything you've heard is man made.....up. 
    Oh please let it rain today.
    Those that can be trusted can change their mind.
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,450
    PJ_Soul said:
    My sister and I aren't baptized (why would we be, right?), but my sister married a guy who was a non-practicing Catholic, and then divorced him. Then the guy tried to marry another Catholic, and the church wouldn't let him get married again because he was divorced, lol, but from a non-Catholic marriage. So the only way around it was to get the Catholic Church to ceremonially annul the first marriage, but without the participation of my sister. And the only way the Church would annul it for him was to confirm that he had married an unbaptized woman... apparently, his marriage to my sister was considered illegitimate by the Church because she was never baptized, as well as because they didn't marry under the Church. So he simply asked me if she'd been baptized and I said no.... and that was supposedly enough proof as far as the Catholic Church is concerned - no proof necessary - and it annulled a marriage that never even happened with the Church in the first place (presumably, they would have refused to marry them if they'd asked, unless my sister got baptized). A Justice of the Peace married them. I am not sure where in the fuck the Catholic Church gets off doing that to be honest. My sister never agreed to any form of annulment ... somehow she didn't matter at all to the Catholic Church because she wasn't baptized, but at the same time she mattered enough for the Church to "rule" the marriage she was in as illegitimate. Why in the hell does the Church have to "annul" a marriage that they also supposedly don't acknowledge since it was never sanctioned by them in the first place? So incredibly stupid. It really makes no sense. Plus, the whole thing is obviously so lax - you can apparently tell them whatever you want and they just go ahead without proving anything, which simply proves that even the Church knows its full of shit.
    in my experience the rules are administered and enforced depending on the priest. if you get a progressive one, they don't adhere to that BS. if you get a fundamentalist, they do. 
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall