The Concept of God

oftenreading

And it should go without saying, but this is a thread on the AMT, and thus a topic for discussion and debate. If anyone doesn't want to engage in discussion or debate, don't participate in the thread. 

Attaway77

oftenreading said:

Attaway77 said:

So here's what we've discovered from all of this... Those who don't believe in God understand the Bible more than most. This is great news, but, why do you care? If you think it's all wrong then why do you still continue to quote from this evil book to prove your point of view? Get rid of this hideous thing, keep living life happy and move on...  It's actually weird when you start to think about it, to know God is evil, the Bible is horrendous and those who know the pages from beginning to end consider it a joke yet they still hold on to it. I can respect that, to know that you don't pray/worship/seek anything at all has to be pretty comforting. So just let it go. God is horrible to you, the Bible is evil and we all move on to what we believe. It's strange how those who could care less still do.....

If someone is going to selectively quote bible verses to justify the death penalty, then I care. 

If you're selectively quoting bible verses to justify hugging kittens, then I don't care. 

So you're selective when you care....  Got it. Damn, it really is hard being a believer. Never really thought about things that way, I just always cared.

oftenreading

Attaway77 said:

oftenreading said:

Attaway77 said:

So here's what we've discovered from all of this... Those who don't believe in God understand the Bible more than most. This is great news, but, why do you care? If you think it's all wrong then why do you still continue to quote from this evil book to prove your point of view? Get rid of this hideous thing, keep living life happy and move on...  It's actually weird when you start to think about it, to know God is evil, the Bible is horrendous and those who know the pages from beginning to end consider it a joke yet they still hold on to it. I can respect that, to know that you don't pray/worship/seek anything at all has to be pretty comforting. So just let it go. God is horrible to you, the Bible is evil and we all move on to what we believe. It's strange how those who could care less still do.....

If someone is going to selectively quote bible verses to justify the death penalty, then I care. 

If you're selectively quoting bible verses to justify hugging kittens, then I don't care. 

So you're selective when you care....  Got it. Damn, it really is hard being a believer. Never really thought about things that way, I just always cared.

Ha! Nice attempt at word twisting, I'll give you that. Doesn't work, though. 

So you care about every statement everyone ever makes, even when it's about something trivial? Good luck to you - you'll be exhausted. 

Attaway77

oftenreading said:

Attaway77 said:

oftenreading said:

Attaway77 said:

So here's what we've discovered from all of this... Those who don't believe in God understand the Bible more than most. This is great news, but, why do you care? If you think it's all wrong then why do you still continue to quote from this evil book to prove your point of view? Get rid of this hideous thing, keep living life happy and move on...  It's actually weird when you start to think about it, to know God is evil, the Bible is horrendous and those who know the pages from beginning to end consider it a joke yet they still hold on to it. I can respect that, to know that you don't pray/worship/seek anything at all has to be pretty comforting. So just let it go. God is horrible to you, the Bible is evil and we all move on to what we believe. It's strange how those who could care less still do.....

If someone is going to selectively quote bible verses to justify the death penalty, then I care. 

If you're selectively quoting bible verses to justify hugging kittens, then I don't care. 

So you're selective when you care....  Got it. Damn, it really is hard being a believer. Never really thought about things that way, I just always cared.

Ha! Nice attempt at word twisting, I'll give you that. Doesn't work, though. 

So you care about every statement everyone ever makes, even when it's about something trivial? Good luck to you - you'll be exhausted. 

Hmmmmmmmm, did you even read what you just said? This entire conversation has been trivial.
 Exhausted? Life does that to ya.

oftenreading

Attaway77 said:

oftenreading said:

Attaway77 said:

oftenreading said:

Attaway77 said:

So here's what we've discovered from all of this... Those who don't believe in God understand the Bible more than most. This is great news, but, why do you care? If you think it's all wrong then why do you still continue to quote from this evil book to prove your point of view? Get rid of this hideous thing, keep living life happy and move on...  It's actually weird when you start to think about it, to know God is evil, the Bible is horrendous and those who know the pages from beginning to end consider it a joke yet they still hold on to it. I can respect that, to know that you don't pray/worship/seek anything at all has to be pretty comforting. So just let it go. God is horrible to you, the Bible is evil and we all move on to what we believe. It's strange how those who could care less still do.....

If someone is going to selectively quote bible verses to justify the death penalty, then I care. 

If you're selectively quoting bible verses to justify hugging kittens, then I don't care. 

So you're selective when you care....  Got it. Damn, it really is hard being a believer. Never really thought about things that way, I just always cared.

Ha! Nice attempt at word twisting, I'll give you that. Doesn't work, though. 

So you care about every statement everyone ever makes, even when it's about something trivial? Good luck to you - you'll be exhausted. 

Hmmmmmmmm, did you even read what you just said? This entire conversation has been trivial.
 Exhausted? Life does that to ya.

I don't view the death penalty as trivial. I'll argue against it any chance I get. 

brianlux

Attaway77 said:

So here's what we've discovered from all of this... Those who don't believe in God understand the Bible more than most. This is great news, but, why do you care? If you think it's all wrong then why do you still continue to quote from this evil book to prove your point of view? Get rid of this hideous thing, keep living life happy and move on...  It's actually weird when you start to think about it, to know God is evil, the Bible is horrendous and those who know the pages from beginning to end consider it a joke yet they still hold on to it. I can respect that, to know that you don't pray/worship/seek anything at all has to be pretty comforting. So just let it go. God is horrible to you, the Bible is evil and we all move on to what we believe. It's strange how those who could care less still do.....

Fair enough Attaway and I can respect your perspective.  But I think there is some middle ground here.  It is possible to have read the entire Bible and study much of in in depth (I have, both) and draw a conclusion that it lies somewhere between evil and divinely inspired.  Personally, I think the Bible has some fascinating stories,  some fine poetry, many examples of inspirational words and good advice about how to be a better human being but I also see much of it as fable, myth, exaggeration, humanly flawed and scattered with accounts of deeds that were supposedly endorsed by God but that I personally see as despicable.  Sort of like any history, really, the good, the bad and the ugly.

HughFreakingDillon

Attaway77 said:

So here's what we've discovered from all of this... Those who don't believe in God understand the Bible more than most. This is great news, but, why do you care? If you think it's all wrong then why do you still continue to quote from this evil book to prove your point of view? Get rid of this hideous thing, keep living life happy and move on...  It's actually weird when you start to think about it, to know God is evil, the Bible is horrendous and those who know the pages from beginning to end consider it a joke yet they still hold on to it. I can respect that, to know that you don't pray/worship/seek anything at all has to be pretty comforting. So just let it go. God is horrible to you, the Bible is evil and we all move on to what we believe. It's strange how those who could care less still do.....

no, I don't think so. I don't know more than any believer. I stopped studying it as a kid. But many people view it more as a textbook of a bygone era. just man-written stories and manuscripts that don't hold any more factual water than The Lord of the Rings. 

And I'm just the opposite. I would imagine that believing there is something after this where you get to see all your loved ones again would be quite comforting. I find no comfort in thinking I'll never see my family again when they die. I would imagine that atheists are probably the saddest ones at funerals, as there is no "we'll see him again" in our grieving process. My brother seems to find the whole thing beautiful. I've never seen him cry a tear at a funeral. It's like he views it as like a promotion. Like he can't wait to get there too. 

I don't think people truly think god is evil. for starters, if they don't believe god exists, they can't think it's evil. second, all they are saying is that if you believe god has power over the human race, but does nothing to get rid of pain and suffering, then yes, I think it is understandable that people question why they'd follow such a being. 

however, I think many or most believers just think god created us and gave us free will, hence the whole Noah story. he couldn't control what was happening, so he killed everybody to start fresh. the bible is very clear that god gave man free will. so the "evil god letting shit happen when he could intervene" doesn't really make sense. 

however, there are other believers who explain things, usually tragic tihngs, away with "it's god's plan". this is an honest question: how can he have a plan if he has no control over the situation?

HesCalledDyer

Hugh, interesting that you mentioned The Lord of the Rings.  I've often thrown this hypothetical around about that.

Imagine a worldwide animal extinction (which is eventually inevitable) and imagine the next form of human-like beings inhabiting this planet unearthing a copy of The Lord of the Rings and that this copy of LOTR is the only written documentation ever found of other existence on the planet.  No Holy Bibles, no Qu'rans, no Dianetics, etc. Would this new species of humanoids then take the word of J.R.R. Tolkien as gospel?  Will they believe the lords and wizards and elves and orcs and trolls and hobbits and dwarves in this book are the beings that inhabited the planet before them? Will they see them as the ones who built the world then destroyed it.  Will they worship Gandalf or Sauron or Saruman or Radagast or Aragorn or Isildur as we now worship God, Allah, Buddha, or Horis? Or perhaps they'll worship Tolkien as a "god."  Will they calculate the age of the earth based on the timeline of LOTR?  Will they see the history of Middle-Earth being that as the former homosapiens' natural history?

If you really think about what religions and the concept of God or gods are, it's really not that far-fetched.

brianlux

HesCalledDyer said:

Hugh, interesting that you mentioned The Lord of the Rings.  I've often thrown this hypothetical around about that.

Imagine a worldwide animal extinction (which is eventually inevitable) and imagine the next form of human-like beings inhabiting this planet unearthing a copy of The Lord of the Rings and that this copy of LOTR is the only written documentation ever found of other existence on the planet.  No Holy Bibles, no Qu'rans, no Dianetics, etc. Would this new species of humanoids then take the word of J.R.R. Tolkien as gospel?  Will they believe the lords and wizards and elves and orcs and trolls and hobbits and dwarves in this book are the beings that inhabited the planet before them? Will they see them as the ones who built the world then destroyed it.  Will they worship Gandalf or Sauron or Saruman or Radagast or Aragorn or Isildur as we now worship God, Allah, Buddha, or Horis? Or perhaps they'll worship Tolkien as a "god."  Will they calculate the age of the earth based on the timeline of LOTR?  Will they see the history of Middle-Earth being that as the former homosapiens' natural history?

If you really think about what religions and the concept of God or gods are, it's really not that far-fetched.

Fascinating concept, Dyer!

HughFreakingDillon

HesCalledDyer said:

Hugh, interesting that you mentioned The Lord of the Rings.  I've often thrown this hypothetical around about that.

Imagine a worldwide animal extinction (which is eventually inevitable) and imagine the next form of human-like beings inhabiting this planet unearthing a copy of The Lord of the Rings and that this copy of LOTR is the only written documentation ever found of other existence on the planet.  No Holy Bibles, no Qu'rans, no Dianetics, etc. Would this new species of humanoids then take the word of J.R.R. Tolkien as gospel?  Will they believe the lords and wizards and elves and orcs and trolls and hobbits and dwarves in this book are the beings that inhabited the planet before them? Will they see them as the ones who built the world then destroyed it.  Will they worship Gandalf or Sauron or Saruman or Radagast or Aragorn or Isildur as we now worship God, Allah, Buddha, or Horis? Or perhaps they'll worship Tolkien as a "god."  Will they calculate the age of the earth based on the timeline of LOTR?  Will they see the history of Middle-Earth being that as the former homosapiens' natural history?

If you really think about what religions and the concept of God or gods are, it's really not that far-fetched.

I brought this exact same concept up in a conversation I had with someone in the analog world. Good to know I wasn't the only one who had this thought!

brianlux

If you're like those of us who see religion and God as a form of mythology (which is not a bad thing), but wonder what lies beyond life and worry about not seeing loved ones after death, this is my way of looking at it:  First, times spent with loved ones remain as memories.  Memories are thoughts and thoughts emanate out from our brains as low frequency waves similar to radio waves.  Those waves do not die.   That is science.  This I cannot prove, but I wonder, when thinking about loved ones, if our thoughts about them emanating out into the universe, eventually to mingle with the thoughts of our loved ones?  I think very possible so.  And if the loved one you miss is a parent (as I miss my mother) it's their DNA that made you what you are and in that way they live in you. 

Another thing that is true in terms of science is that the atoms and molecules that make up the body also do not die.  All the water, air, carbon and minerals of every one who has lived  still exists and many of those atoms exist in our own bodies- including those of the saints and those of the most evil.  That's a weird thought but not so unsettling if you consider that our minds and bodies have the power to use those atoms and molecules for whatever purpose we choose, be it good or bad.  We can utilize Hitler's atoms and molecules toward altruistic purposes or incorporate Jack the Ripper's into working to cure a disease.

Gern Blansten

HughFreakingDillon said:

Attaway77 said:

So here's what we've discovered from all of this... Those who don't believe in God understand the Bible more than most. This is great news, but, why do you care? If you think it's all wrong then why do you still continue to quote from this evil book to prove your point of view? Get rid of this hideous thing, keep living life happy and move on...  It's actually weird when you start to think about it, to know God is evil, the Bible is horrendous and those who know the pages from beginning to end consider it a joke yet they still hold on to it. I can respect that, to know that you don't pray/worship/seek anything at all has to be pretty comforting. So just let it go. God is horrible to you, the Bible is evil and we all move on to what we believe. It's strange how those who could care less still do.....

no, I don't think so. I don't know more than any believer. I stopped studying it as a kid. But many people view it more as a textbook of a bygone era. just man-written stories and manuscripts that don't hold any more factual water than The Lord of the Rings. 

And I'm just the opposite. I would imagine that believing there is something after this where you get to see all your loved ones again would be quite comforting. I find no comfort in thinking I'll never see my family again when they die. I would imagine that atheists are probably the saddest ones at funerals, as there is no "we'll see him again" in our grieving process. My brother seems to find the whole thing beautiful. I've never seen him cry a tear at a funeral. It's like he views it as like a promotion. Like he can't wait to get there too. 

I don't think people truly think god is evil. for starters, if they don't believe god exists, they can't think it's evil. second, all they are saying is that if you believe god has power over the human race, but does nothing to get rid of pain and suffering, then yes, I think it is understandable that people question why they'd follow such a being. 

however, I think many or most believers just think god created us and gave us free will, hence the whole Noah story. he couldn't control what was happening, so he killed everybody to start fresh. the bible is very clear that god gave man free will. so the "evil god letting shit happen when he could intervene" doesn't really make sense. 

however, there are other believers who explain things, usually tragic tihngs, away with "it's god's plan". this is an honest question: how can he have a plan if he has no control over the situation?

right....and why pray?  If god isn't capable/willing to answer prayers why go through the motions?

PJ_Soul

Well, sillies, it's because God works in mysterious ways. Duh.

HughFreakingDillon

brianlux said:

If you're like those of us who see religion and God as a form of mythology (which is not a bad thing), but wonder what lies beyond life and worry about not seeing loved ones after death, this is my way of looking at it:  First, times spent with loved ones remain as memories.  Memories are thoughts and thoughts emanate out from our brains as low frequency waves similar to radio waves.  Those waves do not die.   That is science.  This I cannot prove, but I wonder, when thinking about loved ones, if our thoughts about them emanating out into the universe, eventually to mingle with the thoughts of our loved ones?  I think very possible so.  And if the loved one you miss is a parent (as I miss my mother) it's their DNA that made you what you are and in that way they live in you. 

Another thing that is true in terms of science is that the atoms and molecules that make up the body also do not die.  All the water, air, carbon and minerals of every one who has lived  still exists and many of those atoms exist in our own bodies- including those of the saints and those of the most evil.  That's a weird thought but not so unsettling if you consider that our minds and bodies have the power to use those atoms and molecules for whatever purpose we choose, be it good or bad.  We can utilize Hitler's atoms and molecules toward altruistic purposes or incorporate Jack the Ripper's into working to cure a disease.

I was watching a segment with Neil deGrasse Tyson the other day, and when asked about an afterlife, he included this, and I am of course parphrasing in this quote: "I will not get cremated, I will get buried, and the reason is, when you get cremated, your energy, which we know does not go away, as no energy can be destroyed, goes up into the air and eventually into space. When you are buried, your energy gets recycled into the earth by way of the animals and bacteria that are feeding on your decomposing body. I would rather be part of the earth again than be floating out somewhere in space". 

The guy is fascinating to listen to. I follow him on Twitter, and read his stuff as much as I can. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

If you're like those of us who see religion and God as a form of mythology (which is not a bad thing), but wonder what lies beyond life and worry about not seeing loved ones after death, this is my way of looking at it:  First, times spent with loved ones remain as memories.  Memories are thoughts and thoughts emanate out from our brains as low frequency waves similar to radio waves.  Those waves do not die.   That is science.  This I cannot prove, but I wonder, when thinking about loved ones, if our thoughts about them emanating out into the universe, eventually to mingle with the thoughts of our loved ones?  I think very possible so.  And if the loved one you miss is a parent (as I miss my mother) it's their DNA that made you what you are and in that way they live in you. 

Another thing that is true in terms of science is that the atoms and molecules that make up the body also do not die.  All the water, air, carbon and minerals of every one who has lived  still exists and many of those atoms exist in our own bodies- including those of the saints and those of the most evil.  That's a weird thought but not so unsettling if you consider that our minds and bodies have the power to use those atoms and molecules for whatever purpose we choose, be it good or bad.  We can utilize Hitler's atoms and molecules toward altruistic purposes or incorporate Jack the Ripper's into working to cure a disease.

I was watching a segment with Neil deGrasse Tyson the other day, and when asked about an afterlife, he included this, and I am of course parphrasing in this quote: "I will not get cremated, I will get buried, and the reason is, when you get cremated, your energy, which we know does not go away, as no energy can be destroyed, goes up into the air and eventually into space. When you are buried, your energy gets recycled into the earth by way of the animals and bacteria that are feeding on your decomposing body. I would rather be part of the earth again than be floating out somewhere in space". 

The guy is fascinating to listen to. I follow him on Twitter, and read his stuff as much as I can. 

I happened to see that clip too... I thought it was a perfectly valid desire, although it made me wonder why he didn't want to float off into space. Being in space seems like something he's into, haha.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

If you're like those of us who see religion and God as a form of mythology (which is not a bad thing), but wonder what lies beyond life and worry about not seeing loved ones after death, this is my way of looking at it:  First, times spent with loved ones remain as memories.  Memories are thoughts and thoughts emanate out from our brains as low frequency waves similar to radio waves.  Those waves do not die.   That is science.  This I cannot prove, but I wonder, when thinking about loved ones, if our thoughts about them emanating out into the universe, eventually to mingle with the thoughts of our loved ones?  I think very possible so.  And if the loved one you miss is a parent (as I miss my mother) it's their DNA that made you what you are and in that way they live in you. 

Another thing that is true in terms of science is that the atoms and molecules that make up the body also do not die.  All the water, air, carbon and minerals of every one who has lived  still exists and many of those atoms exist in our own bodies- including those of the saints and those of the most evil.  That's a weird thought but not so unsettling if you consider that our minds and bodies have the power to use those atoms and molecules for whatever purpose we choose, be it good or bad.  We can utilize Hitler's atoms and molecules toward altruistic purposes or incorporate Jack the Ripper's into working to cure a disease.

I was watching a segment with Neil deGrasse Tyson the other day, and when asked about an afterlife, he included this, and I am of course parphrasing in this quote: "I will not get cremated, I will get buried, and the reason is, when you get cremated, your energy, which we know does not go away, as no energy can be destroyed, goes up into the air and eventually into space. When you are buried, your energy gets recycled into the earth by way of the animals and bacteria that are feeding on your decomposing body. I would rather be part of the earth again than be floating out somewhere in space". 

The guy is fascinating to listen to. I follow him on Twitter, and read his stuff as much as I can. 

I happened to see that clip too... I thought it was a perfectly valid desire, although it made me wonder why he didn't want to float off into space. Being in space seems like something he's into, haha.

I gathered he wanted to remain here. Be part of earth and its inhabitants for as long as anything is here. that's what I got from it. 

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

Well, sillies, it's because God works in mysterious ways. Duh.

so does Bono, and some people think he's god. 

RYME

brianlux said:

If you're like those of us who see religion and God as a form of mythology (which is not a bad thing), but wonder what lies beyond life and worry about not seeing loved ones after death, this is my way of looking at it:  First, times spent with loved ones remain as memories.  Memories are thoughts and thoughts emanate out from our brains as low frequency waves similar to radio waves.  Those waves do not die.   That is science.  This I cannot prove, but I wonder, when thinking about loved ones, if our thoughts about them emanating out into the universe, eventually to mingle with the thoughts of our loved ones?  I think very possible so.  And if the loved one you miss is a parent (as I miss my mother) it's their DNA that made you what you are and in that way they live in you. 

Another thing that is true in terms of science is that the atoms and molecules that make up the body also do not die.  All the water, air, carbon and minerals of every one who has lived  still exists and many of those atoms exist in our own bodies- including those of the saints and those of the most evil.  That's a weird thought but not so unsettling if you consider that our minds and bodies have the power to use those atoms and molecules for whatever purpose we choose, be it good or bad.  We can utilize Hitler's atoms and molecules toward altruistic purposes or incorporate Jack the Ripper's into working to cure a disease.

Or you can read Ecclesiastes chapter 12 and feel much better about your lost loved ones.  The first 5 verses pertain to the aging process getting old.  Verses 6 and 7 have to do with your soul (silver cord)(when these clay pots break) returning to God who gave it.
When a person dies the flesh body goes back to the dirt or clay whatever you want to say it's made out of back to the Earth. Flesh bodies are temporary. But your spirit body returns to the Father that gave it.  And a much nicer place.  So your loved ones who have died/passed on, are not out here in a hole in the cold ground.
They are with the Father in another dimension  that we cannot see at this time. So when you when you die or kick the bucket, pass on you will be there too with the Lord and all the people who you've lost over the years will be there too &; happy to greet you.
God has an overall plan that he is ultimately in control of but individuals on an individual basis have free will that's correct. For instance he does not like it when one takes their own life, but if you choose to end your life somehow He's  not going to stop you if you choose to jump off a building you're going to go splat.  I've already discussed what He says we are supposed to do with murderors and rapists.  
He Himself isn't going to float down her on a magic carpet every time someone is about to commit a terrible act and hit them in the face with a big stick.  That's what we are supposed to have laws and law enforcement for.
And as we know accidents happen tree branch can fall on you from the tree on your head and down you go. I totally agree that it's a kind of a sad and wrong answer when people say it was God's plan that somebody died tragically.
Flesh bodies are pretty fragile that's why we have to take care of them.
Ecclesiastes as a great book in the Bible.
Ecclesiastes is basically God's instructions on how to be happy in the flesh.
Prayer is a very humbling thing. You have to be patient when asking for things and give things time.  It's also wize is too thank Him for whatever blessings you have, before you go asking for things.  He does indeed answer prayers.  Sometimes not right away.  Sometimes a decade will go by before you realize that He did in fact answer your prayer it just took time for you to see it..  
Sometimes he won't give you something that you want because He knows that in the long run it would be bad for you.
If my kid begs me for a rattlesnake, I'm not going to get it for him, because if you mess with a rattlesnake long enough it will bite you.
But if you ask Him to lead guide direct and touch you, He will.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Well, sillies, it's because God works in mysterious ways. Duh.

so does Bono, and some people think he's god. 

Maybe he is. That would make about as much sense as anything else!

FoxyRedLa

All musical roads lead to PJ. It's kinda like I know I was born and I know I'll die but the in between is mine. He knows the past present and future but not necessarily play by play as our free will affect.