Does anybody agree with me and Ed on this?

green_girl said:

PJ_Soul said:

I do think that Eddie was pretty rude sometimes when he was younger, and that never appealed to me. I also never really went in for the whole "grunge angst" thing, and while Kurt Cobain was the king of angst, which is why I never liked him at all, Eddie was a little more mature about it at least. Yeah, he was angry and sometimes got rude because of it, but he wasn't completely miserable/full of angst like Cobain and all the intolerable angsty teens of the day IMO. He had anger, some of which seemed justified to the point where I admired that he was mad about it because rightly so, but he never got super pissy and overly negative I don't think, plus he maintained kind of a sense of humour and got along with everyone, and actively cared about certain issues of the day and actively addressed them, so I don't think he was an asshole at all. Just an emotionally expressive artist who was hit over the head with too much instant fame. I don't blame him for being mad half the time with the way he was hounded, stalked, and made unable to walk around in public, and especially with the way he and his GF/wife at the time were treated by a lot of female fans.
What I really liked about him in the old days was that he wasn't a drug addict.

Yes, the not being a drug addict is the best. He survived. Everyone else in Nirvana survived. Ed was angry at the world, not self-loathing. Big difference. I even wondered if, at times, the eyebrow furrowing was showmanship. And that's okay. If he had actually been angry as often as it appeared, he would have imploded.

(Curious: How were they treated by female fans?)

Female fans who were in love with Eddie harassed him and irritated him generally with all the I love yous and crazy sexually driven fan adoration I think (I bet he wished he was less hot pretty quickly, hahaha), but they also were mean about Beth, like yelling "fuck you bitch" and stuff like that at her because they were jealous of her. I think all of that really pissed Eddie off a lot (not to mention the straight up stalking problems from the psycho fans, most of whom were female).

hedonist said:

PJ_Soul said:

green_girl said:

PJ_Soul said:

I do think that Eddie was pretty rude sometimes when he was younger, and that never appealed to me. I also never really went in for the whole "grunge angst" thing, and while Kurt Cobain was the king of angst, which is why I never liked him at all, Eddie was a little more mature about it at least. Yeah, he was angry and sometimes got rude because of it, but he wasn't completely miserable/full of angst like Cobain and all the intolerable angsty teens of the day IMO. He had anger, some of which seemed justified to the point where I admired that he was mad about it because rightly so, but he never got super pissy and overly negative I don't think, plus he maintained kind of a sense of humour and got along with everyone, and actively cared about certain issues of the day and actively addressed them, so I don't think he was an asshole at all. Just an emotionally expressive artist who was hit over the head with too much instant fame. I don't blame him for being mad half the time with the way he was hounded, stalked, and made unable to walk around in public, and especially with the way he and his GF/wife at the time were treated by a lot of female fans.
What I really liked about him in the old days was that he wasn't a drug addict.

Yes, the not being a drug addict is the best. He survived. Everyone else in Nirvana survived. Ed was angry at the world, not self-loathing. Big difference. I even wondered if, at times, the eyebrow furrowing was showmanship. And that's okay. If he had actually been angry as often as it appeared, he would have imploded.

(Curious: How were they treated by female fans?)

Female fans who were in love with Eddie harassed him and irritated him generally with all the I love yous and crazy sexually driven fan adoration I think (I bet he wished he was less hot pretty quickly, hahaha), but they also were mean about Beth, like yelling "fuck you bitch" and stuff like that at her because they were jealous of her. I think all of that really pissed Eddie off a lot (not to mention the straight up stalking problems from the psycho fans, most of whom were female).

Imagine if Facebook or Twitter were around then?

Though it seems times haven't changed, too much.

Haha, well at least people can avoid Twitter and Facebook if they choose to (seems to me that Eddie does indeed avoid both). It was harder back then when most things still happened in real life.

At a 2003 show he went off on a young woman in the front who kept pulling her top up. He went from insulting her "mosquito bites" to a teachable respect yourself moment to worse insults.

HughFreakingDillon said:

green_girl said:

I'm going to quote an old Public Enemy song: "When I get mad I put it down on pad, and give you something that you never had."

I'm glad that Ed put his rage/dissatisfaction/grievances into the music instead of into his arm. He had some jerk moments (like the awful mosquito bite rant); still does. But I'm thrilled there wasn't a camera pointed at me all through my teens and 20s. I'm sure we all are.

After listening almost exclusive to live recordings for the longest time (like most of us, I suppose), I listened to Vs. recently. That's some excellent, creative musicianship from Stone, Jeff, Mike and Dave. And Ed's voice. I don't care if they were less "trained" in the 90s or irritated Andy Rooney with their angst. The thing about youth is that the problems are smaller (if you're lucky), but it all seems so urgent and huge. That's just the way teens/20-somethings are wired. So where did all the young pissed off artists go? I watched the VMAs, and that music is empty. (The VMAs weren't always that way.) Beyonce (who is 34) was the only one saying anything of substance.

"the mosquito bite rant". what is that one?

At a 2003 show he went off on a young woman in the front who kept pulling her top up. He went from insulting her "mosquito bites" to a teachable respect yourself moment to worse insults. It was probably the wine talking, but it's a pretty misogynistic rant.

Found a 'mosquito bite' link on Youtube -> https://youtu.be/bLHTfKueFL4

I hadn't seen or heard that one before. Beyond cringe-worthy.

That bro-wave shit is pretty reprehensible, and I'd be embarrassed if I were EV on that one, but I do think it's a pretty far outlier (unless I'm being naive). I don't believe that drunk dude is the band or the guy that has put in decades of activism for women's rights, the environment, encouraging voter turnout/registration, fighting monolithic, monopolistic corporations, supporting LBGT rights, etc., etc. They've earned my respect over the years on a lot of fronts.

In summary: OP was pretty dead-on.

PJ_Soul said:

green_girl said:

At a 2003 show he went off on a young woman in the front who kept pulling her top up. He went from insulting her "mosquito bites" to a teachable respect yourself moment to worse insults.

HughFreakingDillon said:

green_girl said:

I'm going to quote an old Public Enemy song: "When I get mad I put it down on pad, and give you something that you never had."

I'm glad that Ed put his rage/dissatisfaction/grievances into the music instead of into his arm. He had some jerk moments (like the awful mosquito bite rant); still does. But I'm thrilled there wasn't a camera pointed at me all through my teens and 20s. I'm sure we all are.

After listening almost exclusive to live recordings for the longest time (like most of us, I suppose), I listened to Vs. recently. That's some excellent, creative musicianship from Stone, Jeff, Mike and Dave. And Ed's voice. I don't care if they were less "trained" in the 90s or irritated Andy Rooney with their angst. The thing about youth is that the problems are smaller (if you're lucky), but it all seems so urgent and huge. That's just the way teens/20-somethings are wired. So where did all the young pissed off artists go? I watched the VMAs, and that music is empty. (The VMAs weren't always that way.) Beyonce (who is 34) was the only one saying anything of substance.

"the mosquito bite rant". what is that one?

At a 2003 show he went off on a young woman in the front who kept pulling her top up. He went from insulting her "mosquito bites" to a teachable respect yourself moment to worse insults. It was probably the wine talking, but it's a pretty misogynistic rant.

The mosquito bite rant never really bothered me just because I understand why he was totally disgusted by that girl's behaviour. She deserved it IMO. Is insulting boobs as opposed to insulting something else automatically misogynistic? I don't think so. She was the one who wouldn't stop flashing her tits at him, which to me means she opened herself up to the insults he hurled.

I think the problem was not saying "Hey put your boobs away, this isn't a Whitesnake show" and instead saying 'she was showing me nothing' along with the mosquito bite comment, which both clumsily implied her breasts were too small and that is a dopey, misogynistic thing to say. I think he realized it as soon as he said it, and changed gears to the 'Girls Gone Wild" thing, but a little too late by then.

killmoretrout said:

PJ_Soul said:

green_girl said:

At a 2003 show he went off on a young woman in the front who kept pulling her top up. He went from insulting her "mosquito bites" to a teachable respect yourself moment to worse insults.

HughFreakingDillon said:

green_girl said:

I'm going to quote an old Public Enemy song: "When I get mad I put it down on pad, and give you something that you never had."

I'm glad that Ed put his rage/dissatisfaction/grievances into the music instead of into his arm. He had some jerk moments (like the awful mosquito bite rant); still does. But I'm thrilled there wasn't a camera pointed at me all through my teens and 20s. I'm sure we all are.

After listening almost exclusive to live recordings for the longest time (like most of us, I suppose), I listened to Vs. recently. That's some excellent, creative musicianship from Stone, Jeff, Mike and Dave. And Ed's voice. I don't care if they were less "trained" in the 90s or irritated Andy Rooney with their angst. The thing about youth is that the problems are smaller (if you're lucky), but it all seems so urgent and huge. That's just the way teens/20-somethings are wired. So where did all the young pissed off artists go? I watched the VMAs, and that music is empty. (The VMAs weren't always that way.) Beyonce (who is 34) was the only one saying anything of substance.

"the mosquito bite rant". what is that one?

At a 2003 show he went off on a young woman in the front who kept pulling her top up. He went from insulting her "mosquito bites" to a teachable respect yourself moment to worse insults. It was probably the wine talking, but it's a pretty misogynistic rant.

The mosquito bite rant never really bothered me just because I understand why he was totally disgusted by that girl's behaviour. She deserved it IMO. Is insulting boobs as opposed to insulting something else automatically misogynistic? I don't think so. She was the one who wouldn't stop flashing her tits at him, which to me means she opened herself up to the insults he hurled.

I think the problem was not saying "Hey put your boobs away, this isn't a Whitesnake show" and instead saying 'she was showing me nothing' along with the mosquito bite comment, which both clumsily implied her breasts were too small and that is a dopey, misogynistic thing to say. I think he realized it as soon as he said it, and changed gears to the 'Girls Gone Wild" thing, but a little too late by then.

Meh. I hear you, but just because of the target of his comments, I actually think it was funny. I don't expect Eddie to be a Saint. He's clearly not, and he's as willing to hurl insults when he's pissed off as anyone else (maybe more so). I bet few people would say anything if he made a small dick joke about some guy who was acting like an asshole though (in fact, few people did when he was talking about Trump at a recent show and made the small hands/dick joke). He made another small dick joke at the Missoula 2012 show now that I think about it. Anyway, sure he says shit that bothers some people sometimes. Hey, I was just recently complaining that I thought his Bartman joke at Wrigley was a stupid and tasteless thing to say. It happens! And what have we learned? That Eddie Vedder likes big tits and big dicks. I guess. (but no, Eddie's no misogynist of course, as I'm sure you know. He was just trying to hurt the ridiculous girl with his words, which I'm sure he did).

gettingright said:

While I don't necessarily disagree with the OP on general characterizations, the post comes off as overly judgmental and somewhat pretentious.

It's wonderful to appreciate the growth and maturity of the band, but to belittle the formative years is missing the point that they wouldn't be where they are now if they hadn't been where they were. It's like appreciating mushrooms while, at the same time, discounting the shit they grew on.

Is the band wiser and more mature today than 25 years ago? Of course, but who isn't? The thing about growth and wisdom is it tends to gained the hard way. To raise up one over the other seems counter intuitive.

So I appreciate who they are today and who they were once. While I don't regularly identify with the anger or visceral nature of the early stuff anymore, it is nostalgic as hell.

I feel like I'm coming off pretty defensive and surly (and there were a few things I edited out) and it's really not my intention. I'm glad you like what you like, and you can choose to not like any or all of their catalog, but keep in mind that there is a history, that without, you could not have what followed.

I think I'll go listen to vs now.

I agree with you.

HughFreakingDillon said:

Bartman at wrigley? What was that?

Ed booted that guy for being an asshole during Lukin at Wrigley 2. Afterwards, he said the guy kinda reminded him of Bartman, which was a little cheap and unnecessary, but he backtracked pretty quickly and said Bartman was a nice guy, etc.

Kudos for posting a very interesting thread OP. I agree with your opinion that the music and individuals have matured well. However I don't agree with your impression of Eddie as a shithead or asshole in the early days. Or dismissing the band as being just a bunch macho guys who you didn't appreciate "aesthetically". Guess you don't care for long hair, Doc Martens or flannel? Age wise I am close to the same age as the band and in those days I could be a little overly reactive too. I don't know or have never met Eddie but my perception of him was a young, rather shy guy uncomfortable with being thrust into the center spotlight. He loves music, is really happy singing but wasn't thrilled being the one to chat up the audience. When PJ went into those extended jams in the early days I think his adrenaline when he wasn't singing lead him to climb and jump for something to do. Add to that his high intelligence and it may have been hard for him to relate without seeming self rightous or arrogant. Then he's trying to share his thoughts and emotions on a rather deep level and he's getting the "I looovvve yooou Eddieee" due to his physical appearance. And I'm sure the music industry people on all levels tried to push him to take advantage of his looks because it is a business after all and image is so important. That he and the band survived all that bullshit is amazing.
As to whether the band's music and shows are some much better now I have to say yes and no. No doubt they are much better musicians...I mean Mr. McCready has just blown me away on this tour....I love alot of the newer songs and the sound, lights and videos are what you'd expect from a massively successful band and lend to the atmosphere. That said I still love the "old" Pearl Jam. The passion and energy was amazing. with fewer songs the extended jams they ripped sent me to another level. I miss that experience. I confess, some days when I feel a low energy level and want a boost I watch the 92 Pinkpop video on Youtube with the climbing and legendary dive. Still love it but do I expect or want him to do it now? NO. They are not the same band and I am not the same person either. And that is really how it should be.
Regarding the people who found Eddie's comments to a flashing female fan overly harsh or disrespectful I see it as using humor that is maybe not in the best taste but do you think having a person showing you personal body parts without be desired or asked is being respectful or has good taste? A very drunk guy at a party long ago thought it would be funny to flash his dick at a bunch of us girls. HAHAHA...does it always shrink up like that? Put your little toy away. That solved that problem.