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Does anybody agree with me and Ed on this?

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    OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 4,829

    I'm not sure I ever thought Ed was an asshole. Tortured, for sure. But never an asshole. You could hear his heart through his songs, even the early ones.

    That's what drew me to the band from the first note. You could tell this was a person that felt the whole world outside of himself.

    Angry is the word I always think of. He came in with a chip on his shoulder (anger that was intertwined with torture)...and put it right on the tape Jeff sent him. The anger was magnified by the spotlight and microscope.

    I don't think he was necessarily ever an asshole, either. But he was surly. Angry about things most of the rest of us assume we'd eat up. He really did not know what to do. Throw in a stalker, accusations of selling out, the difficulty in pleasing fans, and it's probably a miracle the band made it through intact.

    Sometimes I miss "Angry Ed." But had Happy Ed not replaced him, Pearl Jam would probably be long in our past.

    As to the OP's discussion of whether they are better now...I kinda think so. It's hard to say. Their first five albums are probably better than the subsequent five (though not, in my opinion, by as large of a margin as most would think). But as good as they were in the early days, they are better now than anyone probably would have projected them to be. Look at the shows. They're just going out for three hours a night, with good humor, an unbelievable number of songs from which to choose, and a ton of energy. They were always a good live band, but for any newer band, the smart money is NOT on them being around in 25 years and still being relevant and putting on crowd-pleasing shows...oh, and I love Lightning Bolt. I tend to think they are better now...but at the very least, they're doing something quite rare.
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    on2legson2legs Standing in the Jersey rain… Posts: 14,458

    You are way over analyzing. It's music, entertainment. He wasn't abusive nor harming anyone. For you to call him a shithead is arrogant on your part. Just listen to the music and stop being so pompous.

    1996: Randall's Island 2  1998: East Rutherford | MSG 1 & 2  2000: Cincinnati | Columbus | Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3 | Boston 1 | Camden 1 & 2 2003: Philadelphia | Uniondale | MSG 1 & 2 | Holmdel  2005: Atlantic City 1  2006: Camden 1 | East Rutherford 1 & 2 2008: Camden 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Newark (EV)  2009: Philadelphia 1, 2 & 4  2010: Newark | MSG 1 & 2  2011: Toronto 1  2013: Wrigley Field | Brooklyn 2 | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore  2015: Central Park  2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2 | MSG 1 & 2 | Fenway Park 2 | MSG (TOTD)  2017: Brooklyn (RnR HOF)  2020: MSG | Asbury Park  2021: Asbury Park  2022: MSG | Camden | Nashville  2024: MSG 1 & 2 (#50) | Philadelphia 1 & 2 | Baltimore


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    HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,845
    The things that captured me about the band during the early years is that I identified with them, and Ed, during that time I eas 17 when Ten came out). Ed was angry, but he didn't always know how to express it, so it just came out as an angry vomit; all at once, all mixed together, almost unrecognizable. A composit of all the shit he had recently digested. I appreciate their live shows now, for the musicianship, for the positivity, fir the commeraderie with the audience. But i also appreciate the earlier perfirmances that captivated me to begin with, the unadulterated rage, the indirect passion. I first saw them right before VS came out. I last saw them on the Lightning Bolt tour. Its like two completely different experiences, but equal in importance to me. And maybe to them too.

    We are all embarassed by our behaviour in our younger, less-directed years. But without those, we wouldn't be where we are today.

    The only show Ed should be embarrassed about is the Singles party. Lol. But its an epic story. No epic story is without embarassment.
    Flight Risk out NOW!

    www.headstonesband.com




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    KV4053KV4053 Mike's side, crushed up against the stage Posts: 1,474
    I saw PJ for the first time in April 1992 and several times more until the ticket master issue. Ed was never an asshole. He was always much deeper, honest, and caring, especially compared to his contemporaries.

    Beyond that, I agree with you.
    I know I was born and I know that I'll die. The in between is mine.
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    KV4053KV4053 Mike's side, crushed up against the stage Posts: 1,474
    KV4053 said:

    I saw PJ for the first time in April 1992 and several times more until the ticket master issue. Ed was never an asshole. He was always much deeper, honest, and caring, especially compared to his contemporaries.

    Beyond that, I agree with you.

    And now I disagree with myself.... for even pretending to know him.
    I know I was born and I know that I'll die. The in between is mine.
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    HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,845
    I actually agree with the OP on the asshole bit. Ed was very holier than thou in the beginning. It was kind of his way or the highway, and he often came off as kind of dick headed about it. Remember him calling out marky mark and madonna on new years eve in 92? He came off as kind of dickish at that show. I found it humourous at the time I heard it, but thought "if this was a rock star I didn't like, I could easily rip him for this".
    Flight Risk out NOW!

    www.headstonesband.com




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    ladydocNYCladydocNYC Posts: 635
    brianlux said:

    I agree, ladydoc. The first time I saw Pearl Jam was the night they played "Alive" on SNL. I appreciated their energy and enthusiasm and liked the song but the whole bare-chested, red faced, strutting like dudes thing got old really fast for me and, like you, I pretty much ignored them for several years. But during their middle period, when "Yield", "No Code" and "Riot Act" and "Self Titled" came out, I took notice again. They became serious about their art as well as their energy. I keep waiting for this band to come out with something that for me works on this level. That middle period is what makes this band for me. The early stuff and the last couple of records hold little interest for me. I still like the energy of the band and seeing them live in Missoula in 2012 ranks among the best live performances I've ever seen and that includes seeing Hendrix twice, "Who Sell Out" era The Who, "Reckoning" era REM and other excellent shows. What I've liked the most about PJ is when they have mixed that high level energy with more mature song craft.

    And none of this is meant to dismiss any of their work. I don't believe in putting down any artistic work. Whatever doesn't work for me I ignore and am fine with it working for others.

    Wow I found my soul mate! That one other person gets it is really cool!
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    VOLAREVOLARE Posts: 314
    I feel blessed this band came along when it did in my life. I feel like I've been in step with all these changes and metamorphoses. I get it when people say it's been a soundtrack to their life. It's been so wonderful. Probably has to do a lot with being of similar ages and growing up at the same time for me. Just lucky to have a band I care about and respect continue to produce quality music while at the same time make me feel proud to be a fan of them. I hope they just continue going forward.
    8-28-92 Harriet Island
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    hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
    Thank you, double-V :)
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    slightofjeffslightofjeff Posts: 7,758
    Those draw of those early shows was, basically, "here is a guy opening a vein and bleeding for you every single night." It was raw and it was visceral and you couldn't not watch.

    But that can only last so long before you run out of blood to bleed.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
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    RoleModelsinBlood31RoleModelsinBlood31 Austin TX Posts: 6,150
    Don't agree with the op at all. Best years of this band were 1990-1998, when they were full of piss and vinegar. Testosterone fuels rock & roll and is what fills venues and sells albums.

    Nothing against them now, of course, but they're 6 guys with families playing songs they wrote 20 years ago. It's great, but sadly predictable. The draw back in the day was not knowing if you'd get knocked out cold in the pit, if Ed would dive on top of you or climb the stage lighting, if mike would go out of his mind but be blacked out the whole time, etc.

    I'm sure I'm one of the few who feels this way, but their early years of angst and fuck you attitude was the best.
    I'm like an opening band for your mom.
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    slightofjeffslightofjeff Posts: 7,758

    Don't agree with the op at all. Best years of this band were 1990-1998, when they were full of piss and vinegar. Testosterone fuels rock & roll and is what fills venues and sells albums.

    Nothing against them now, of course, but they're 6 guys with families playing songs they wrote 20 years ago. It's great, but sadly predictable. The draw back in the day was not knowing if you'd get knocked out cold in the pit, if Ed would dive on top of you or climb the stage lighting, if mike would go out of his mind but be blacked out the whole time, etc.

    I'm sure I'm one of the few who feels this way, but their early years of angst and fuck you attitude was the best.

    It was great at the time but you can't keep going at that pace forever. It'd be pretty damn ridiculous if Ed were still climbing shit.

    Here's the other thing: The music is better now. They're even better at playing the old songs now than they were.

    There are more songs to choose from and they play those songs better now.

    There's something to be said about the early shows because they were the early shows. It was our first introduction to these guys. They were also only playing like 14 songs a night because it was all they had.

    The best Pearl Jam shows I've seen have been in the past 10 years. The Wrigley shows were 3-hour marathons in which all the songs were impeccably played.

    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
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    slightofjeffslightofjeff Posts: 7,758
    Also I love how the fact that you can go to a PJ show now and probably not get knocked unconscious somehow makes the band "sadly predictable."

    Jesus.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
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    bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 15,548
    I haven't read through this entire thread but I would trade 50 shows I've been to after 2000 to have seen the band 5 times from 1991 - 1996.

    To hear Ed sing songs he wrote during that time period while the meaning to them was still current for him would be amazing, along with just the energy from the rest of the band. There was urgency there, there was probably the feeling in the band that this tour could be the last before they broke up, etc... I have thought before that the members of Pearl Jam now are more like actors playing a role. I don't mean that in a bad way but 2016 Ed can't possibly have the same feelings singing Blood that he had when he wrote it in 1993. I bet when you saw a show in 1994 and Ed was singing Blood he was singing it with anger and passion, which could only make the performance better than in 2016 where he is just trying to perform the song like any other. I don't want Ed to be miserable and angry. It is just a thought.

    They still are writing new music, and as others have mentioned are only getting better as musicians. Limiting their touring helps keep it fresh for them I'm sure so they don't feel like they are a nostalgia act.
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    2-feign-reluctance2-feign-reluctance TigerTown, USA Posts: 23,148

    I think the full context of the Ed quote in question is "testosterone-driven" but not in a meat head sort of way.

    The way Ed describes the early days, it was a like a wild animal being let out of its cage after a lifetime of captivity.

    Though Ed might be sheepish of those days -- as most of us are sheepish of our early 20s in retrospect -- I certainly don't hold it against him.

    Very, very well said here.
    www.cluthelee.com
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    2-feign-reluctance2-feign-reluctance TigerTown, USA Posts: 23,148

    You are way over analyzing. It's music, entertainment. He wasn't abusive nor harming anyone. For you to call him a shithead is arrogant on your part. Just listen to the music and stop being so pompous.

    Relax Edson - there's plenty of room for opinions on the forum.
    www.cluthelee.com
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    SarahSarah Toronto Posts: 736
    Just want to say kudos to the OP and the thread participants for some great discussion. Will chime in with my thoughts later. (Too tired now, and not thinking straight!)
    "Somewhere in between / There and here / I got lost / I got scared..."
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    KV4053KV4053 Mike's side, crushed up against the stage Posts: 1,474
    PJ-Cubs said:

    While I agree with the comments that the band has grown as people and as musicians, I have to say that I sometimes miss the anger and raw emotion. In my opinion, the band has not put out a good hard-rocker or fast-paced song in a while.

    Wrigley 2. Raw energy.
    I know I was born and I know that I'll die. The in between is mine.
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    hrd2imgnhrd2imgn Southwest Burbs of Chicago Posts: 4,869
    I think he was referring more to his hanging all over the rafters and jumping into crowds, promoting the pits etc. Did they say and do some stupid shit back then, yes, but who in their situation has had a perfect growth from nothing to biggest on earth?? Doesn't happen, and the fact they could pull it back to survive was amazing in itself. They did everything they could to cannibalize themselves starting in 95 for a album or two, if anything I think the maturity they showed in knowing it was too much, and we better pull back or we are done, was underappreciated I cannot think of a thing on this journey I would change save the Roskilde tragedy and the other instances where people got hurt..
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    I personally don't agree with the OP impression of the band in the early years. I feel that I was aggressive and in full grunge mode in the early 90's which is what drew me to the band. Now that I'm 51 I fully agree with the OP where I appreciate how the band has matured like a fine wine.
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    RH658469RH658469 NKY Posts: 17
    As a bit of a prodigal son coming home to these forums, I am fascinated in the diverse opinions of the band and it's work over the last 25 years. I am more in the camp of appreciating the early work, but I also appreciate the entire catalog. I was also in my teens when Ten released and I identified with the vitriol and angst deeply. At times I could not decide if I was Jeremy or the guy cracked in the mouth by his left. It was a confusing time for me and the album encapsulated it completely.

    After Vitology I checked out for a while for many reasons including where I was in life and the influences in my world at the time. Lightning Bolt brought me back in and IMO it is one of the most complete albums I have consumed in years. The entire thing makes sense to me including where each track landed on the album. But I am also appreciating all the songs I missed like Red Mosquito, No Way, Nothing As It Seems, 1/2 Full, etc. because I wasn't buying complete albums anymore.

    Anyway, thanks for the eye opening threads like this. It's easy to get a bit myopic and forget that everyone's experience is truly unique. I only hope I get to more shows before the run is over. The Gleason moment was one of those times when I found a profoundly deeper appreciation for a piece of artwork that I already admired.
    That guy who bought 10 on cassette when it released but took over 20 years to get his ass to a show...
    2014 Cincinnati, 2016 Wrigley1
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    what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,761
    I was in my early/mid 20's during their first years, and similarly angry and testosterone driven (and I'm a girl!). I remember feeling that this Eddie person totally expressed what I was going through -- especially the confusing parts I didn't understand -- and I would never have gotten to the other side without releasing my own rage. It had to go somewhere, and I could have directed it either inwardly or outwardly. It seems to me that it was much healthier to direct it outwardly because the alternative would have been way more self-destructive. I know I pissed off a lot of people at times, and I'm not proud of those moments, but thankfully I also had it in me to reflect on the conflicts and learn from them. Of course I do look back and wonder now how I didn't end up dead with some of the really stupidly dangerous situations I put myself in. I don't regret those either, though, because the most important thing I learned through that period is that the best any person can hope to do each day is survive it. Everything else in life is a bonus.

    I agree with some that the last two albums were boring to me when I first heard them, but the more I listened to Lightning Bolt, I grew to love it. (Not so much with Backspacer.) It's funny how when No Code came out, I was like, "What the fuck happened to Pearl Jam!?!?" I wasn't ready for that album. I stopped listening for awhile -- didn't really fully tune back in until Avocado when I thought, "Finally the band I know is back." But getting reacquainted and studying what I call "my lost albums," I have also had the most growth as a person. I don't know if that was intentional or coincidental.

    I'm not one of those people who can say this song or that song got me through a particular moment or crisis. I don't believe Pearl Jam are my life saviors or without them I couldn't have evolved. I'm just saying I'm glad they've been an interesting part of my life fully lived.

    Good thread. Thanks, Lady Doc, not just for the thread, but also for your important work as a therapist. We need more mental health in this world!!
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    RoleModelsinBlood31RoleModelsinBlood31 Austin TX Posts: 6,150

    Also I love how the fact that you can go to a PJ show now and probably not get knocked unconscious somehow makes the band "sadly predictable."

    Jesus.

    Hey now, if you're going to quote someone at least quote them correctly. Sadly it's become normal to quote someone completely out of context in things like politics nowadays.... Anyway, what I said was them playing songs they wrote 20 years ago is sadly predictable. Here's what I meant but may not have expressed well since I had a few drinks:

    They are far better musicians now, and they're true professionals now for sure. What this means is that they've removed the unexpected and replaced it with a fine tuned, rehearsed performance. To some this may be great, to others, not so much. To play porch and swing the hanging lights every show for almost 4 years may be mind blowing for some, but I just fall in the other group. To have the same stage setup and merch trucks set up like a traveling carnival has changed the scene from the raw music to a materialistic money making enterprise. If I had never seen the band several times in the 90's and been a nut for everything PJ back then while in high school I would completely agree with the OP, for sure.

    I would see them as the professional rock band they are who put on 3 hour rocking shows of perfectly played songs. To me though, I did see them several times in the 90's, and nothing nowadays will ever compare to the atmosphere, the rawness, the angst, the complete craziness where Ed would end up laying on the stage with Jeff completely exhausted and dead after the show.

    And dude, don't take it personally. if I offended you, my comments weren't meant to. This band and their music means something different to every one of us, and that family we're a part of for it is pretty cool.

    I'm like an opening band for your mom.
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    HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,845
    I dont find their performances "rehearsed" at all.
    Flight Risk out NOW!

    www.headstonesband.com




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    madseamadsea Posts: 140
    I "grew up" with these guys, in1993 when I first saw them, we were all kids. I LOVED that they didn't do videos, that they rejected radio air play and sued Ticketmaster. As they have matured, so have I and their music continues to "speak" to me. Unlike Ed, I don't regret my youthful indiscretions, they are a part of me just like my hairline, the color of my eyes or my height. To hear Ed talk about having his own kids at Wrigley, and his childhood and reflecting how he feels now...that hits me. I get it.

    Love this band. They are the soundtrack to my life,
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    green_girlgreen_girl Posts: 931
    I'm going to quote an old Public Enemy song: "When I get mad I put it down on pad, and give you something that you never had."

    I'm glad that Ed put his rage/dissatisfaction/grievances into the music instead of into his arm. He had some jerk moments (like the awful mosquito bite rant); still does. But I'm thrilled there wasn't a camera pointed at me all through my teens and 20s. I'm sure we all are.

    After listening almost exclusive to live recordings for the longest time (like most of us, I suppose), I listened to Vs. recently. That's some excellent, creative musicianship from Stone, Jeff, Mike and Dave. And Ed's voice. I don't care if they were less "trained" in the 90s or irritated Andy Rooney with their angst. The thing about youth is that the problems are smaller (if you're lucky), but it all seems so urgent and huge. That's just the way teens/20-somethings are wired. So where did all the young pissed off artists go? I watched the VMAs, and that music is empty. (The VMAs weren't always that way.) Beyonce (who is 34) was the only one saying anything of substance.
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    PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 49,624
    edited August 2016
    I do think that Eddie was pretty rude sometimes when he was younger, and that never appealed to me. I also never really went in for the whole "grunge angst" thing, and while Kurt Cobain was the king of angst, which is why I never liked him at all, Eddie was a little more mature about it at least. Yeah, he was angry and sometimes got rude because of it, but he wasn't completely miserable/full of angst like Cobain and all the intolerable angsty teens of the day IMO. He had anger, some of which seemed justified to the point where I admired that he was mad about it because rightly so, but he never got super pissy and overly negative I don't think, plus he maintained kind of a sense of humour and got along with everyone, and actively cared about certain issues of the day and actively addressed them, so I don't think he was an asshole at all. Just an emotionally expressive artist who was hit over the head with too much instant fame. I don't blame him for being mad half the time with the way he was hounded, stalked, and made unable to walk around in public, and especially with the way he and his GF/wife at the time were treated by a lot of female fans.
    What I really liked about him in the old days was that he wasn't a drug addict.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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    green_girlgreen_girl Posts: 931
    PJ_Soul said:

    I do think that Eddie was pretty rude sometimes when he was younger, and that never appealed to me. I also never really went in for the whole "grunge angst" thing, and while Kurt Cobain was the king of angst, which is why I never liked him at all, Eddie was a little more mature about it at least. Yeah, he was angry and sometimes got rude because of it, but he wasn't completely miserable/full of angst like Cobain and all the intolerable angsty teens of the day IMO. He had anger, some of which seemed justified to the point where I admired that he was mad about it because rightly so, but he never got super pissy and overly negative I don't think, plus he maintained kind of a sense of humour and got along with everyone, and actively cared about certain issues of the day and actively addressed them, so I don't think he was an asshole at all. Just an emotionally expressive artist who was hit over the head with too much instant fame. I don't blame him for being mad half the time with the way he was hounded, stalked, and made unable to walk around in public, and especially with the way he and his GF/wife at the time were treated by a lot of female fans.
    What I really liked about him in the old days was that he wasn't a drug addict.

    Yes, the not being a drug addict is the best. He survived. Everyone else in Nirvana survived. Ed was angry at the world, not self-loathing. Big difference. I even wondered if, at times, the eyebrow furrowing was showmanship. And that's okay. If he had actually been angry as often as it appeared, he would have imploded.

    (Curious: How were they treated by female fans?)
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    HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,845

    I'm going to quote an old Public Enemy song: "When I get mad I put it down on pad, and give you something that you never had."

    I'm glad that Ed put his rage/dissatisfaction/grievances into the music instead of into his arm. He had some jerk moments (like the awful mosquito bite rant); still does. But I'm thrilled there wasn't a camera pointed at me all through my teens and 20s. I'm sure we all are.

    After listening almost exclusive to live recordings for the longest time (like most of us, I suppose), I listened to Vs. recently. That's some excellent, creative musicianship from Stone, Jeff, Mike and Dave. And Ed's voice. I don't care if they were less "trained" in the 90s or irritated Andy Rooney with their angst. The thing about youth is that the problems are smaller (if you're lucky), but it all seems so urgent and huge. That's just the way teens/20-somethings are wired. So where did all the young pissed off artists go? I watched the VMAs, and that music is empty. (The VMAs weren't always that way.) Beyonce (who is 34) was the only one saying anything of substance.

    "the mosquito bite rant". what is that one?
    Flight Risk out NOW!

    www.headstonesband.com




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    HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 35,845
    PJ_Soul said:

    I do think that Eddie was pretty rude sometimes when he was younger, and that never appealed to me. I also never really went in for the whole "grunge angst" thing, and while Kurt Cobain was the king of angst, which is why I never liked him at all, Eddie was a little more mature about it at least. Yeah, he was angry and sometimes got rude because of it, but he wasn't completely miserable/full of angst like Cobain and all the intolerable angsty teens of the day IMO. He had anger, some of which seemed justified to the point where I admired that he was mad about it because rightly so, but he never got super pissy and overly negative I don't think, plus he maintained kind of a sense of humour and got along with everyone, and actively cared about certain issues of the day and actively addressed them, so I don't think he was an asshole at all. Just an emotionally expressive artist who was hit over the head with too much instant fame. I don't blame him for being mad half the time with the way he was hounded, stalked, and made unable to walk around in public, and especially with the way he and his GF/wife at the time were treated by a lot of female fans.
    What I really liked about him in the old days was that he wasn't a drug addict.

    kurt came off an an immature teenager. had no problem talking shit about other bands and people. and it just made it so much worse to find out later he was mad at all these "sellout" bands when that's all he wanted the whole time.
    Flight Risk out NOW!

    www.headstonesband.com




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