Implosions

unsung · August 2016

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

oftenreading said:

unsung said:
Actually the way I describe it is what the Constitution calls for.
That doesn't mean that it's useful, practical or relevant for the current condition of the country or the world.
I often try to envision what it's like to be a government worshipping statist but it starts to make my brain hurt. See, I actually have the ability to make good decisions and do good things without needing to be told, or worse forced, to do so.

Statism...the world's most dangerous religion.

Aloofness and Libertarians go hand in hand.
As long as we're making grand, sweeping generalities - theft, coercion and statism go hand in hand.
I'm associating a personality trait with a belief system, not actions you may associate with 'statism'. It could be confirmation bias on my part, and maybe there are Libertarians that don't come across that way. But there is this theme that somehow they're privy to this unique ideology and the rest of us are sheep who can't think and just gobble up the candy put in front of us. What I typically end up witnessing is that Libertarians love government just as much as everyone else.
Got it. I have libertarian leanings, but am not a Libertarian. I distrust authority in general, but understand the need for laws and a mechanism to enforce those laws. I'm certainly not a believer in Utopia, which is something many Libertarians seem to be looking for. I'm just trying to figure out how to maximize my liberties, minimize gov't growth and intrusion, but also have a solid enough social structure that idiots and criminals aren't ruining it for everyone. In general I think people are self-interested, and we need to figure out a way to harness or direct self-interest so that it works to the betterment of society.
I think the most dangerous thing about Libertarians is their rejection of financial regulations and, as you mention, laws. I think that minimizing government regulation, assuming we're not looking at a dictatorship or anything like that, is generally a pretty bad idea unless you're talking about individual rights... and even then there are limits, i.e. I bet FLDS loves the Libertarians.
Actually there is only one law.

Do no harm.

Anarchy isn't the absence of rules, it is the absence of rulers.
I'm cool with your one law. But it's vague so it would need to be clarified, (by making more laws) and then we would need it enforced.
Yes, what is "harm" exactly? Do the banking fucks who were allowed to ruin the economy count? Because the lack of regulation is what allowed those greedy fucks to cause the 2008 financial crisis. I would consider that harm... but Libertarians don't seem to if they don't believe in government regulations for banks and other financial institutions. They also don't believe in gun ownership regulation... so is allowing violent extremists or violent mentally ill people to buy AR-15s so they can shoot a bunch of people "doing harm"? The Libertarians apparently don't think so. And so on..... Libertarianism is a lot like Communism. Both very good ideas in a perfect world. If everyone cooperated and did what they had to to make it work, they'd both present us with a near utopia ..... but then human nature comes along ruins it all, rendering them completely untenable systems at best.

And what did you do with those banking fucks? Nothing.

Wachovia laundered nearly $380B for drug cartels and were only fined $160M. That is regulation?

Murder is harm. I didn't expect such a emotionally rash answer from you.

Again, what does this have to do with Libertarians?

unsung · August 2016

josevolution said:

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How do you envision the building and maintaining of things that are shared and public?
Do you mean like maintaining clean rivers in Colorado?
So your saying we don't need government at all ?

I think I've answered that question numerous times.

rgambs · August 2016

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How do you envision the building and maintaining of things that are shared and public?
Do you mean like maintaining clean rivers in Colorado?

Haha what a boon that was for anti-government types. Decades of unprecedented progress cleaning this country up, and then one pickup negates all government oversight?

Go Beavers · August 2016

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How do you envision the building and maintaining of things that are shared and public?
Do you mean like maintaining clean rivers in Colorado?

In this response, you're suggesting we need stronger laws and/or greater enforcement.

rgambs · August 2016

unsung said:

josevolution said:

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How do you envision the building and maintaining of things that are shared and public?
Do you mean like maintaining clean rivers in Colorado?
So your saying we don't need government at all ?
I think I've answered that question numerous times.

You have, but you haven't even begun to answer how we would deal with the thousands of real life problems that the "unconstitutional" Government is trying to fix.

unsung · August 2016

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How do you envision the building and maintaining of things that are shared and public?
Do you mean like maintaining clean rivers in Colorado?
In this response, you're suggesting we need stronger laws and/or greater enforcement.

I'm suggesting nothing of the sort.

Go Beavers · August 2016

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How do you envision the building and maintaining of things that are shared and public?
Do you mean like maintaining clean rivers in Colorado?
In this response, you're suggesting we need stronger laws and/or greater enforcement.

I'm suggesting nothing of the sort.

You're suggesting something. Do tell.

PJ_Soul · August 2016

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

jeffbr said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

oftenreading said:

unsung said:
Actually the way I describe it is what the Constitution calls for.
That doesn't mean that it's useful, practical or relevant for the current condition of the country or the world.
I often try to envision what it's like to be a government worshipping statist but it starts to make my brain hurt. See, I actually have the ability to make good decisions and do good things without needing to be told, or worse forced, to do so.

Statism...the world's most dangerous religion.

Aloofness and Libertarians go hand in hand.
As long as we're making grand, sweeping generalities - theft, coercion and statism go hand in hand.
I'm associating a personality trait with a belief system, not actions you may associate with 'statism'. It could be confirmation bias on my part, and maybe there are Libertarians that don't come across that way. But there is this theme that somehow they're privy to this unique ideology and the rest of us are sheep who can't think and just gobble up the candy put in front of us. What I typically end up witnessing is that Libertarians love government just as much as everyone else.
Got it. I have libertarian leanings, but am not a Libertarian. I distrust authority in general, but understand the need for laws and a mechanism to enforce those laws. I'm certainly not a believer in Utopia, which is something many Libertarians seem to be looking for. I'm just trying to figure out how to maximize my liberties, minimize gov't growth and intrusion, but also have a solid enough social structure that idiots and criminals aren't ruining it for everyone. In general I think people are self-interested, and we need to figure out a way to harness or direct self-interest so that it works to the betterment of society.
I think the most dangerous thing about Libertarians is their rejection of financial regulations and, as you mention, laws. I think that minimizing government regulation, assuming we're not looking at a dictatorship or anything like that, is generally a pretty bad idea unless you're talking about individual rights... and even then there are limits, i.e. I bet FLDS loves the Libertarians.
Actually there is only one law.

Do no harm.

Anarchy isn't the absence of rules, it is the absence of rulers.
I'm cool with your one law. But it's vague so it would need to be clarified, (by making more laws) and then we would need it enforced.
Yes, what is "harm" exactly? Do the banking fucks who were allowed to ruin the economy count? Because the lack of regulation is what allowed those greedy fucks to cause the 2008 financial crisis. I would consider that harm... but Libertarians don't seem to if they don't believe in government regulations for banks and other financial institutions. They also don't believe in gun ownership regulation... so is allowing violent extremists or violent mentally ill people to buy AR-15s so they can shoot a bunch of people "doing harm"? The Libertarians apparently don't think so. And so on..... Libertarianism is a lot like Communism. Both very good ideas in a perfect world. If everyone cooperated and did what they had to to make it work, they'd both present us with a near utopia ..... but then human nature comes along ruins it all, rendering them completely untenable systems at best.
And what did you do with those banking fucks? Nothing.

Wachovia laundered nearly $380B for drug cartels and were only fined $160M. That is regulation?

Murder is harm. I didn't expect such a emotionally rash answer from you.

Again, what does this have to do with Libertarians?

I don't feel like my answer was emotionally rash. I definitely didn't feel emotional when I wrote it, lol. Is it the swearing? I swear like a sailor, it doesn't mean much.

What do you mean what did I do with those banking fucks? I don't think I understand the question. I'm Canadian. Our banks and financial institutions are well-regulated. That's why we really didn't feel much impact from the US crisis in 2008. But if I were American... what are you suggesting I could have done with those banking fucks? Not that all the blame falls on them. No, the government failed to regulate them. That is what happens when people are not regulated. Hence the problem with Libertarianism. And yes, murder is harm. But is legally making it so that said murderer is able to cause that harm also harm? I would argue that it is.
Sorry unsung, I'm not really understanding your entire post. I don't get your last question either.

I was explicitly talking about Libertarianism.

brianlux · August 2016

I have friends, a couple, who are true anarchists, so I understand and even sympathize to a point their philosophy. But they also understand that they have to live in the world as it is and they do what they can without being angry about it all the time. Unsung, your ideals are great but maybe consider that your anger isn't going to change very many minds. Where's the humor? Where's the fun? I sincerely hope your world isn't devoid of the lighter aspects of life. Look at the Great Curmudgeons: Edward Abbey, Mark Twin, Kurt Vonnegut Jr. -- they were all dead serious but also funny as hell and look at how many people they made an affect on, that they got to thinking about things differently! Social criticism without some humor is just not going to float many boats. Ya know?

mace1229 · August 2016

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.

How many roads do you go on where you don't have to throw change in a meter? How do you think those roads got there and paid for them? If the government didn't do it, I certainly wouldn't volunteer my time and money to pave the city, and whoever did would be charging you every time you used it.
I never said or even implied without the government we wouldnt have cars or computers. What I did say was even if you chose to not use government paved roads, everything you own still got here on them. So how can you not think roads are necessary in today's world? At least that's what I interpret your comment about ignorant people and roads and the "meh roads" to mean.

mace1229 · August 2016

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How do you envision the building and maintaining of things that are shared and public?
Do you mean like maintaining clean rivers in Colorado?

Just ask Brazil, who needs government to maintain and regulate public bodies of water? What benefit could possibly come from government regulations on that?

brianlux · August 2016

unsung · August 2016

rgambs said:

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How do you envision the building and maintaining of things that are shared and public?
Do you mean like maintaining clean rivers in Colorado?
Haha what a boon that was for anti-government types. Decades of unprecedented progress cleaning this country up, and then one pickup negates all government oversight?

It's an endless list, Flint water, Chicago lead smelter...

unsung · August 2016

mace1229 said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How many roads do you go on where you don't have to throw change in a meter? How do you think those roads got there and paid for them? If the government didn't do it, I certainly wouldn't volunteer my time and money to pave the city, and whoever did would be charging you every time you used it.
I never said or even implied without the government we wouldnt have cars or computers. What I did say was even if you chose to not use government paved roads, everything you own still got here on them. So how can you not think roads are necessary in today's world? At least that's what I interpret your comment about ignorant people and roads and the "meh roads" to mean.

Muh roads is in reference to people such as yourself that believe roads wouldn't exist without government.

To answer your other questions..the roads "got there" by private paving companies building them. They were paid for by people such as yourself.

It's this simple, you live on X on a map. Five miles east is a Wal-Mart, five miles west is a Target. Private companies are in charge of infrastructure, one provides a gravel road to their parking lot, the other a nice smooth paved road. Which would you go to?

unsung · August 2016

brianlux said:
I have friends, a couple, who are true anarchists, so I understand and even sympathize to a point their philosophy. But they also understand that they have to live in the world as it is and they do what they can without being angry about it all the time. Unsung, your ideals are great but maybe consider that your anger isn't going to change very many minds. Where's the humor? Where's the fun? I sincerely hope your world isn't devoid of the lighter aspects of life. Look at the Great Curmudgeons: Edward Abbey, Mark Twin, Kurt Vonnegut Jr. -- they were all dead serious but also funny as hell and look at how many people they made an affect on, that they got to thinking about things differently! Social criticism without some humor is just not going to float many boats. Ya know?

I know.

My happiness has accelerated once I figured out I can't change things and to only worry about things I can control.

josevolution · August 2016

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

unsung said:

mace1229 said:

Go Beavers said:

unsung said:
Actually my position is quite relaxing. I no longer have to argue with ignorant people and hear them tell me how much I need their roads. Muh roads!

Truthfully I don't give a shit what society does, we are at the point where having genders are offensive and your day consists of catching a cartoon character while arguing over corrupt politicians. That is success? I'm just saying to ignore it all and so I really don't give two shits if you don't like what I say. You keep participating in the system that you endlessly bitch about, I'll be minding my own business over with those that have moved on from it.

All the while participating in, and benefitting, from the system. Don't worry, I'll stay off your lawn!
Without any system there'd be no police, fire, schools, roads. Muh roads? Without roads how do workers get to the power plant to power your computer to tell us you no longer have to argue with ignorant people? Without roads how do you even get that computer? Or pretty much everything else you own. Maybe you can walk to the store, but someone has to drive it to the store.
So roads wouldn't exist without government. Got it. Glad you cleared that up.

Cars wouldn't exist either? We'd have to walk? No computers? Oh boy. I guess all innovation would cease to exist without your overlords.
How many roads do you go on where you don't have to throw change in a meter? How do you think those roads got there and paid for them? If the government didn't do it, I certainly wouldn't volunteer my time and money to pave the city, and whoever did would be charging you every time you used it.
I never said or even implied without the government we wouldnt have cars or computers. What I did say was even if you chose to not use government paved roads, everything you own still got here on them. So how can you not think roads are necessary in today's world? At least that's what I interpret your comment about ignorant people and roads and the "meh roads" to mean.
Muh roads is in reference to people such as yourself that believe roads wouldn't exist without government.

To answer your other questions..the roads "got there" by private paving companies building them. They were paid for by people such as yourself.

It's this simple, you live on X on a map. Five miles east is a Wal-Mart, five miles west is a Target. Private companies are in charge of infrastructure, one provides a gravel road to their parking lot, the other a nice smooth paved road. Which would you go to?

I get what your saying but look we live in America unless you live in a forest and you can provide everything for yourself it's almost impossible to live without being part of this system ...

unsung · August 2016

Indeed. It's pretty hard to live off grid, but those that are able to still face hurdles because laws are being passed to make it illegal to do so. Tell me, how is that not tyranny? How is that not government being overly obtrusive?

Halifax2TheMax · August 2016

unsung said:
Indeed. It's pretty hard to live off grid, but those that are able to still face hurdles because laws are being passed to make it illegal to do so. Tell me, how is that not tyranny? How is that not government being overly obtrusive?

Care to cite an example of where laws are being passed to make it illegal to live off the grid?

Gern Blansten · August 2016

unsung said:
Indeed. It's pretty hard to live off grid, but those that are able to still face hurdles because laws are being passed to make it illegal to do so. Tell me, how is that not tyranny? How is that not government being overly obtrusive?

Doesn't living off the grid tend to mean you are trespassing on the property of others? Either public or private?

If you "live off the grid" and stay on public grounds there are costs to maintain those grounds. Why shouldn't you participate in those costs?

riotgrl · August 2016

How are businesses any better? Their only motive for doing anything is profit. In order to achieve profit they usually keep salaries low and cut corners if necessary. I'd love to believe if we had a free market that those businesses would go bankrupt because of their poor practices but as rgambs stated earlier, life wasn't so great in the 1850-1900 era. We can never have a true free market because humans are involved. If humans are involved, you will eventually have something screwing up the free market system.

Implosions

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