Baseball Hall Of Fame.....

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

Cliffy6745 said:

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

Cliffy6745 said:

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

Cliffy6745 said:

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

Cliffy6745 said:

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

HesCalledDyer said:

PEDs were not banned in MLB until 2005. Up until then, perfectly legal within the MLB rule book. MLB promoted it with McGwire & Sosa in '98. Baseball viewership declined majorly after the '95 strike. They needed something to revive the sport. Let's juice up the players and let the Home Run Era begin!

Everyone needs to get off their high horses like you're all so much better than any of the MLB players who used PEDs. Again, perfectly legal within the rules of the game at the time. But we, the fans, want to act like we're on some moral/ethical podium when it comes to discussing these players. Give it a break. We all find ways to take advantage of our jobs and make our performance look better than it really is.

Is Lee Smith a HOF'er in your eyes?
Fred McGriff?
Gil Hodges?

Just curious

I know you didn't ask me, but no to all of the above.

When Lee Smith retired he was the career leader in saves...478?
Fred McGriff hit 493 Hr's? In an era when everyone was juicing?
Gil Hodges was the considered by many to be the best 1st baseman of his generation. Right? 8 time all-star, 3 time gold glove winner.

If those 3 don't belong, then there is no way in hell that any of the steroid freaks belong either. In my humble opinion.

Lee Smith is a no way for me. There has to be an absolutely insane standard for relievers. I think the only two career relievers that deserve to be in are Hoffman and Mariano.

I could be convinced for McGriff, possibly, his numbers are good, but you need some crazy offensive numbers for a first baseman, in my mind. Take steroids out of it, how would you compare Giambi to McGriff?

Hodges, same as McGriff but worse numbers.

Yeah, Im not too sure what to think about the relievers. But if Sutter gets in, no questions asked, with 300 career saves, then how is Lee Smith not a HOF'er? You say only Hoffman and Mariano, and I see exactly where you are coming from. But that said, if Smoltz and Eckersley didn't pad their stats by becoming relievers later in their careers, then neither one is a HOF'er. Yet both became 1st ballot HOF'ers.

I have issues with the relievers.

Well I do think it is asinine that Bruce Sutter is in and think he has no business being there.

I hear you on Smotlz and Eckersley and don't know how I feel about that. On one side they were both very good starters who turned into very good relievers and they had longevity because of it. At the same time, how many players have been that good at both and have had that long careers? I see both sides. I don't see either as a first ballot.

And longevity should absolutely be considered when voting for the HOF. Right? Then again I go back to Lee Smith, who pitched 18 years, had over 30 saves in 11 years, and twice had 29 saves. If Sutter is in, then Lee Smith should have been 1st ballot, with 95% of the votes.

Well I completely agree that if Sutter is the standard then Lee Smith should be in on a first ballot. If Sutter is the standard for a reliever, then half the closers in baseball are probably hall of famers.

I no doubt agree that longevity is a consideration and hear what you are saying. I guess I am just looking at the fact that they weren't career relievers and are getting in on a combination of the two.

There is an article you can find here on the internet from S.I. on Gil Hodges(For some reason it wont let me copy and paste). Anyway it is titled...Time for baseball to right a wrong. It will take you 3 seconds to google and find the article.

Read it, and then tell me Gil Hodges isn't a HOF'er. Because after you read it, you may scratch your head, and wonder how this guy wasn't a 1st ballot HOF'er. His stats, his OPS, where he ranked in career homers when he retired, his World Series appearances, his stats in those World Series games, etc. His numbers compare, or blow away, a TON of players in the HOF.

1st ballot or not a Hall of famer IS a hall of famer.

Bonds, Palmiero, Clemens, Bagwell should all be in.

Did roids help Palmiero get 3000 hits? Probably not nearly as much as helping him get to 500 homers. The 3000 hits would have got him in regardless so I say let him in as well.

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

cutz said:

What about Albert Belle? (check out his numbers: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/belleal01.shtml

His last 10 years were dominant?

Agree Albert Belle's numbers are Hall worthy. Pretty sure the only reason he disappeared from the ballot, was because Albert Belle is one of the BIGGEST pieces of garbage to ever walk the planet.

I agree. Belle was a nasty person, but his numbers are HOF. Hell, if you believe about everything about what was said about Ty Cobb, then he wouldn't be in the HOF>LOL>

I think that's why it took Jim Rice so long to get in: he didn't like dealing with the media at all , and had a bad attitude toward them. But, none of that shouldn't matter, but i guess it does when you're dealing with human emotions.

What about the players that used "Greenies"? Do you consider that their PED of their generation?

Raines last year of eligibility I assume gets him in. I love that next year we see who votes for who. I've always been under the impression some of these writers don't vote for certain guys purely to be the odd man out. I mean who the hell didn't vote for Griffey jr? He should have been the first with 100%.

tempo_n_groove said:

I don't see how Raines gets in? I don't see him with the numbers.

Fred McGriff should be in, so if he gets in then Jack Morris should be in. Oh and Whitaker got snubbed/ It's a shame he is off the ballot.

Vladamir Guerrero should be in the first time.

I'd like to see Billy Wagner, Trevor Hoffman and Lee Smith get in. Not sure why the loss of love for relievers? The game isn't the time of Rollie Fingers anymore and I wish the HOF writers' committee would see that...

Bonds and Clemens should be in. Two of the most dominating players I have watched in the 30 years of baseball viewing.

With the different roles in pitchers nowadays I'd like to see anyone with over 250 wins get in and special consideration for under that. So Moose Mussina gets in and Schilling gets considered.

What say you?

Mussina is not a Hall of Famer. I think to be a Hall of Famer you have to be one of the top players at your position at some point in your career. Mussina had a really nice career but not sure he was ever one of the Top 5 or 10 (maybe 10) starting pitchers in baseball.

Schilling should be in. Jack Morris absolutely should be in.

As for the steroid guys and Pete Rose...it's a shrine to the history of baseball. Unless their records are stricken from the baseball record books how can you not have the all-time hits leader, all time home run leader and the pitcher with the most Cy Young's not in the Hall of Fame? Not having Rose, Bonds and Clemens in the Hall of Fame while they are still counted in the record books doesn't make any sense. Want to compromise on them, then put them in but with no ceremony and no speech. that's my take.

HesCalledDyer said:

They need to take this shit out of the writers' hands. So many of these jackwagons are under the age of 30 and have some bug up their ass about the steroid era, when they were too young to even be aware what was going on at that time. But I bet when they were 7-8 years old, they loved seeing Slammin' Sammy and Big Mac go head-to-head for the home run record.
Not to mention these writers all have hard-ons for WAR like it's the end all, be all statistic in baseball. It's not even a damn stat! Baseball writers suck!!

I think you have this all backwards. The under 30's seem to be the ones voting for the steroid guys while the old stodgy bastards hold out.

pjhawks said:

tempo_n_groove said:

I don't see how Raines gets in? I don't see him with the numbers.

Fred McGriff should be in, so if he gets in then Jack Morris should be in. Oh and Whitaker got snubbed/ It's a shame he is off the ballot.

Vladamir Guerrero should be in the first time.

I'd like to see Billy Wagner, Trevor Hoffman and Lee Smith get in. Not sure why the loss of love for relievers? The game isn't the time of Rollie Fingers anymore and I wish the HOF writers' committee would see that...

Bonds and Clemens should be in. Two of the most dominating players I have watched in the 30 years of baseball viewing.

With the different roles in pitchers nowadays I'd like to see anyone with over 250 wins get in and special consideration for under that. So Moose Mussina gets in and Schilling gets considered.

What say you?

Mussina is not a Hall of Famer. I think to be a Hall of Famer you have to be one of the top players at your position at some point in your career. Mussina had a really nice career but not sure he was ever one of the Top 5 or 10 (maybe 10) starting pitchers in baseball.

Schilling should be in. Jack Morris absolutely should be in.

As for the steroid guys and Pete Rose...it's a shrine to the history of baseball. Unless their records are stricken from the baseball record books how can you not have the all-time hits leader, all time home run leader and the pitcher with the most Cy Young's not in the Hall of Fame? Not having Rose, Bonds and Clemens in the Hall of Fame while they are still counted in the record books doesn't make any sense. Want to compromise on them, then put them in but with no ceremony and no speech. that's my take.

Don Sutton, Bert Blyleven and Nolan Ryan never led the league in wins or ever won a Cy Young. The only things these three have in common is 300 wins oh and a spot in the baseball HOF.

I do believe that because of the different times Moose should be considered.

HesCalledDyer said:

They need to take this shit out of the writers' hands. So many of these jackwagons are under the age of 30 and have some bug up their ass about the steroid era, when they were too young to even be aware what was going on at that time. But I bet when they were 7-8 years old, they loved seeing Slammin' Sammy and Big Mac go head-to-head for the home run record.
Not to mention these writers all have hard-ons for WAR like it's the end all, be all statistic in baseball. It's not even a damn stat! Baseball writers suck!!

The writers are actually all old crusty/higher than thoughs whom loved the long ball and what it did for baseball. They should kiss McGwire and Sosa's asses for saving baseball.

HesCalledDyer said:

Are there really that many from the old guard still around? I thought most were in the younger crowd these days. Either way, get their asses out of voting for awards and who goes into the Hall.

Baseball writers ALL hold the HOF in a very high regard. It is the most heralded of all the sports HOF's so they take it seriously. Just look at past voting and how certain players weren't unanimously voted in. I mean who is the assholes that DIDN'T vote for Griffey Jr or the 6 jackwagons that didn't vote for Ryan and the list goes on.

I totally agree with you about the WAR phenomenon...