Jenner Woman of the Year

HughFreakingDillon said:

bootlegger10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

chadwick said:

bruce is a male not a female. he dresses as a woman. he may be feminine. he may take meds that enhance his breasts. dude's a guy w/ a samurai sword in his pocket. his innerness may feel womanly & that's fine & stuff. bruce isn't a full on woman at all & never will be. i am sorry but that's the way it is.

Brace yourself for the volley of eggs and rotten tomatoes.

I'm getting a bit sick of this line. Is that Victim thread still open?

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

dignin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

dignin said:

chadwick said:

does bruce still have his penis & testicles?

You are not paying attention. It makes no difference. Do you know the difference between gender and sex?

Here, I will give you a hint.

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

Actually it does going by that link you posted…

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics. To summarise:

Sorry. I pasted the wrong thing....something I was looking at earlier.

This is more clear.

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender,[1] or intersex.

The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.[3][4] Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.

Among scientists, the term sex differences (as compared to gender differences) is typically applied to sexually dimorphic traits that are hypothesized to be evolved consequences of sexual selection.[5][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

Society has to make up our mind how to identify people
Male, Female or Transgender

They are simply men and women born with the wrong bodies.

So we should just identify them as that? - "born with the wrong body"?
Do you know how belittling that suggestion is?
Male, Female or Transgender, simple.

No, you identify them as whatever they with to be identified as.
What's belittling? No idea what you mean. That transgendered people feel like they were born with the wrong body is basically the defining feature of being transgendered.

OK, so Bruce Jenner was a man, married, has kids and loves women and was heterosexual.

Now Bruce is Caitlyn, has boobs, his man parts, still loves women and is now a woman...

So is she a lesbian now?

I don't know. Who cares? I don't see how that makes any difference.

Why comment if you don't care then?

I thought it was an interesting question to ask...

I think part of the point is that we as a society seem to have this obsession with labelling everything, which is part of the problem. are you hetero? homo? bi?

how about "I'm just me"?

No, we have a gutless society that placates to the extreme minority. Transgender is not normal. We don't have an obsession with labeling. We just know that people are born male and female. Whether one has a chemical imbalance in the brain shouldn't add a third gender type.

Are people like Jenner bad people? No, of course not. Should they be treated with respect? Of course. But should society have to adapt to them based on their decisions about their bodies? I don't think so.

Acceptance and tolerance is gutless? I'd say intolerance and ignorance are actually gutless. There is nothing to fear here.

PJ_Soul said:

bootlegger10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

bootlegger10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

chadwick said:

bruce is a male not a female. he dresses as a woman. he may be feminine. he may take meds that enhance his breasts. dude's a guy w/ a samurai sword in his pocket. his innerness may feel womanly & that's fine & stuff. bruce isn't a full on woman at all & never will be. i am sorry but that's the way it is.

Brace yourself for the volley of eggs and rotten tomatoes.

I'm getting a bit sick of this line. Is that Victim thread still open?

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

dignin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

dignin said:

chadwick said:

does bruce still have his penis & testicles?

You are not paying attention. It makes no difference. Do you know the difference between gender and sex?

Here, I will give you a hint.

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

Actually it does going by that link you posted…

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics. To summarise:

Sorry. I pasted the wrong thing....something I was looking at earlier.

This is more clear.

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender,[1] or intersex.

The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.[3][4] Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.

Among scientists, the term sex differences (as compared to gender differences) is typically applied to sexually dimorphic traits that are hypothesized to be evolved consequences of sexual selection.[5][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

Society has to make up our mind how to identify people
Male, Female or Transgender

They are simply men and women born with the wrong bodies.

So we should just identify them as that? - "born with the wrong body"?
Do you know how belittling that suggestion is?
Male, Female or Transgender, simple.

No, you identify them as whatever they with to be identified as.
What's belittling? No idea what you mean. That transgendered people feel like they were born with the wrong body is basically the defining feature of being transgendered.

OK, so Bruce Jenner was a man, married, has kids and loves women and was heterosexual.

Now Bruce is Caitlyn, has boobs, his man parts, still loves women and is now a woman...

So is she a lesbian now?

I don't know. Who cares? I don't see how that makes any difference.

Why comment if you don't care then?

I thought it was an interesting question to ask...

I think part of the point is that we as a society seem to have this obsession with labelling everything, which is part of the problem. are you hetero? homo? bi?

how about "I'm just me"?

No, we have a gutless society that placates to the extreme minority. Transgender is not normal. We don't have an obsession with labeling. We just know that people are born male and female. Whether one has a chemical imbalance in the brain shouldn't add a third gender type.

Are people like Jenner bad people? No, of course not. Should they be treated with respect? Of course. But should society have to adapt to them based on their decisions about their bodies? I don't think so.

Kinda like how being gay isn't normal? I wouldn't expect a post like this in 2015......blast from the past man.

Seriously. Is it 1991 again?

This board is so predictable. I went out of my way to say I had nothing against transgender people and get treated like a devil and someone who is going to discriminate like segregation. If anyone has any links to message boards that allow differing opinions let me know.

Poor Bootlegger!

As far as I can tell, your opinion is allowed here, just like everyone else's. I guess you're really looking to find a message board where everyone agrees with you? You don't seem to appreciate others' opinions about your opinions.
I've noticed that there are a whole lot of pots calling kettles black around here lately.

bootlegger10 said:

SVRDhand13 said:

Caitlyn Jenner is

bootlegger10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

bootlegger10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

chadwick said:

bruce is a male not a female. he dresses as a woman. he may be feminine. he may take meds that enhance his breasts. dude's a guy w/ a samurai sword in his pocket. his innerness may feel womanly & that's fine & stuff. bruce isn't a full on woman at all & never will be. i am sorry but that's the way it is.

Brace yourself for the volley of eggs and rotten tomatoes.

I'm getting a bit sick of this line. Is that Victim thread still open?

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

dignin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

dignin said:

chadwick said:

does bruce still have his penis & testicles?

You are not paying attention. It makes no difference. Do you know the difference between gender and sex?

Here, I will give you a hint.

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

Actually it does going by that link you posted…

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics. To summarise:

Sorry. I pasted the wrong thing....something I was looking at earlier.

This is more clear.

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender,[1] or intersex.

The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.[3][4] Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.

Among scientists, the term sex differences (as compared to gender differences) is typically applied to sexually dimorphic traits that are hypothesized to be evolved consequences of sexual selection.[5][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

Society has to make up our mind how to identify people
Male, Female or Transgender

They are simply men and women born with the wrong bodies.

So we should just identify them as that? - "born with the wrong body"?
Do you know how belittling that suggestion is?
Male, Female or Transgender, simple.

No, you identify them as whatever they with to be identified as.
What's belittling? No idea what you mean. That transgendered people feel like they were born with the wrong body is basically the defining feature of being transgendered.

OK, so Bruce Jenner was a man, married, has kids and loves women and was heterosexual.

Now Bruce is Caitlyn, has boobs, his man parts, still loves women and is now a woman...

So is she a lesbian now?

I don't know. Who cares? I don't see how that makes any difference.

Why comment if you don't care then?

I thought it was an interesting question to ask...

I think part of the point is that we as a society seem to have this obsession with labelling everything, which is part of the problem. are you hetero? homo? bi?

how about "I'm just me"?

No, we have a gutless society that placates to the extreme minority. Transgender is not normal. We don't have an obsession with labeling. We just know that people are born male and female. Whether one has a chemical imbalance in the brain shouldn't add a third gender type.

Are people like Jenner bad people? No, of course not. Should they be treated with respect? Of course. But should society have to adapt to them based on their decisions about their bodies? I don't think so.

Kinda like how being gay isn't normal? I wouldn't expect a post like this in 2015......blast from the past man.

Seriously. Is it 1991 again?

This board is so predictable. I went out of my way to say I had nothing against transgender people and get treated like a devil and someone who is going to discriminate like segregation. If anyone has any links to message boards that allow differing opinions let me know.

Yes, you very clearly stated that you have nothing against abnormal people who have chemical imbalances in their brain. We all got that.

I think we all would agree that the majority of people are born male or female and do not have urges to switch genders. It may be more than 1 in a million but it certainly isn't prevalent. So, what causes someone like Bruce Jenner to want to switch sexes? If it isn't a chemical imbalance it is something else that didn't develop normally. I didn't mean chemical imbalance as an attack but literally something genetically happened that it is causing this.

That is why I clearly went on to say that I wasn't attacking trans people but just trying to make a point we shouldn't abandon gender classifications. That is what I thought the poster ahead of me was indicating or referencing.

And clearly I indicated that it wasn't someone's choice but genetics, so you can put down the pitchforks.

rgambs said:

bootlegger10 said:

SVRDhand13 said:

Caitlyn Jenner is

bootlegger10 said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

bootlegger10 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

tempo_n_groove said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

chadwick said:

bruce is a male not a female. he dresses as a woman. he may be feminine. he may take meds that enhance his breasts. dude's a guy w/ a samurai sword in his pocket. his innerness may feel womanly & that's fine & stuff. bruce isn't a full on woman at all & never will be. i am sorry but that's the way it is.

Brace yourself for the volley of eggs and rotten tomatoes.

I'm getting a bit sick of this line. Is that Victim thread still open?

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

dignin said:

tempo_n_groove said:

dignin said:

chadwick said:

does bruce still have his penis & testicles?

You are not paying attention. It makes no difference. Do you know the difference between gender and sex?

Here, I will give you a hint.

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

Actually it does going by that link you posted…

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics. To summarise:

Sorry. I pasted the wrong thing....something I was looking at earlier.

This is more clear.

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender,[1] or intersex.

The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.[3][4] Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.

Among scientists, the term sex differences (as compared to gender differences) is typically applied to sexually dimorphic traits that are hypothesized to be evolved consequences of sexual selection.[5][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

Society has to make up our mind how to identify people
Male, Female or Transgender

They are simply men and women born with the wrong bodies.

So we should just identify them as that? - "born with the wrong body"?
Do you know how belittling that suggestion is?
Male, Female or Transgender, simple.

No, you identify them as whatever they with to be identified as.
What's belittling? No idea what you mean. That transgendered people feel like they were born with the wrong body is basically the defining feature of being transgendered.

OK, so Bruce Jenner was a man, married, has kids and loves women and was heterosexual.

Now Bruce is Caitlyn, has boobs, his man parts, still loves women and is now a woman...

So is she a lesbian now?

I don't know. Who cares? I don't see how that makes any difference.

Why comment if you don't care then?

I thought it was an interesting question to ask...

I think part of the point is that we as a society seem to have this obsession with labelling everything, which is part of the problem. are you hetero? homo? bi?

how about "I'm just me"?

No, we have a gutless society that placates to the extreme minority. Transgender is not normal. We don't have an obsession with labeling. We just know that people are born male and female. Whether one has a chemical imbalance in the brain shouldn't add a third gender type.

Are people like Jenner bad people? No, of course not. Should they be treated with respect? Of course. But should society have to adapt to them based on their decisions about their bodies? I don't think so.

Kinda like how being gay isn't normal? I wouldn't expect a post like this in 2015......blast from the past man.

Seriously. Is it 1991 again?

This board is so predictable. I went out of my way to say I had nothing against transgender people and get treated like a devil and someone who is going to discriminate like segregation. If anyone has any links to message boards that allow differing opinions let me know.

Yes, you very clearly stated that you have nothing against abnormal people who have chemical imbalances in their brain. We all got that.

I think we all would agree that the majority of people are born male or female and do not have urges to switch genders. It may be more than 1 in a million but it certainly isn't prevalent. So, what causes someone like Bruce Jenner to want to switch sexes? If it isn't a chemical imbalance it is something else that didn't develop normally. I didn't mean chemical imbalance as an attack but literally something genetically happened that it is causing this.

That is why I clearly went on to say that I wasn't attacking trans people but just trying to make a point we shouldn't abandon gender classifications. That is what I thought the poster ahead of me was indicating or referencing.

And clearly I indicated that it wasn't someone's choice but genetics, so you can put down the pitchforks.

It is exactly that.
For example:
Around 1 in 600 "males" are born with Klinefelter Syndrome, giving them an XXY chromosomal configuration, in most cases.

For those who are uneducated about gender and sex issues, do some reading, it might open your mind a bit.

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html#Klinefelter Syndrome
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

I guess you're wrong, because I veer hard left, and I get belittled and ganged up on all the time around here (as I guess you would know!). I just don't bitch and whine about it constantly.

I don't actually think anybody bitches and moans about it as you like to consistently frame it.

Pointing out the inevitable trend of discourse that follows once someone offers something unpopular is hardly bitching as much as it is making a point regarding inherent tendencies that, quite frankly, make this place kind of shitty at times.

I've seen the same tactic by the 'left' (using your terminology) multiple times, yet have never seen you become indignant for it. Look at the gun threads which you frequent: I can't begin to recall the amount of times people have said, "Prepare for the inevitable if only someone there had a gun" comment... or "Cue the more people die by cars" comment.

How many extreme right people have you seen banned on here? I seriously can't think of any off the top of my head. I can think of numerous extreme left people that have been banned. Why is that? Is it because moderators are right wing and cannot tolerate the left attitudes... or is it because perhaps the tendency to attack with ruthlessness rests within the left contingency?

I think you know me and I'm not deliberately trying to polarize the community any more than what it already is. I think I probably rest right of the middle given my strong stance on crime and punishment... but I have been very vocal for many significant left ideals at the same time.

I'm not picking sides is what I'm saying here: I'm only supporting the right to voice your side without getting habitually shit on (extreme positions- which almost beg for an attack- aside).

I am indignant about the hypocrisy, not the tactic. Yeah, lots of people pull that trick (it's tedious, but whatever) But the point is that people who do it themselves are repeatedly acting like victims of bias when it's done to them. And worse, acting like victims of plain old disdain, when the are regularly disdainful towards others.

A lot of extreme right people have been banned. Where people are on the political spectrum has nothing to do with that - it's been all over the board.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

I guess you're wrong, because I veer hard left, and I get belittled and ganged up on all the time around here (as I guess you would know!). I just don't bitch and whine about it constantly.

I don't actually think anybody bitches and moans about it as you like to consistently frame it.

Pointing out the inevitable trend of discourse that follows once someone offers something unpopular is hardly bitching as much as it is making a point regarding inherent tendencies that, quite frankly, make this place kind of shitty at times.

I've seen the same tactic by the 'left' (using your terminology) multiple times, yet have never seen you become indignant for it. Look at the gun threads which you frequent: I can't begin to recall the amount of times people have said, "Prepare for the inevitable if only someone there had a gun" comment... or "Cue the more people die by cars" comment.

How many extreme right people have you seen banned on here? I seriously can't think of any off the top of my head. I can think of numerous extreme left people that have been banned. Why is that? Is it because moderators are right wing and cannot tolerate the left attitudes... or is it because perhaps the tendency to attack with ruthlessness rests within the left contingency?

I think you know me and I'm not deliberately trying to polarize the community any more than what it already is. I think I probably rest right of the middle given my strong stance on crime and punishment... but I have been very vocal for many significant left ideals at the same time.

I'm not picking sides is what I'm saying here: I'm only supporting the right to voice your side without getting habitually shit on (extreme positions- which almost beg for an attack- aside).

I am indignant about the hypocrisy, not the tactic. Yeah, lots of people pull that trick (it's tedious, but whatever) But the point is that people who do it themselves are repeatedly acting like victims of bias when it's done to them. And worse, acting like victims of plain old disdain, when the are regularly disdainful towards others.

A lot of extreme right people have been banned. Where people are on the political spectrum has nothing to do with that - it's been all over the board.

Really? Who?

I can seriously think of very prominent lefties, but am challenged to think of any rightie.

The one that keeps popping in my head is Unsung- but he simply walked away: tired of the stuff I'm getting at.It was rare when I agreed with him, but he was a very important voice here.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

I guess you're wrong, because I veer hard left, and I get belittled and ganged up on all the time around here (as I guess you would know!). I just don't bitch and whine about it constantly.

I don't actually think anybody bitches and moans about it as you like to consistently frame it.

Pointing out the inevitable trend of discourse that follows once someone offers something unpopular is hardly bitching as much as it is making a point regarding inherent tendencies that, quite frankly, make this place kind of shitty at times.

I've seen the same tactic by the 'left' (using your terminology) multiple times, yet have never seen you become indignant for it. Look at the gun threads which you frequent: I can't begin to recall the amount of times people have said, "Prepare for the inevitable if only someone there had a gun" comment... or "Cue the more people die by cars" comment.

How many extreme right people have you seen banned on here? I seriously can't think of any off the top of my head. I can think of numerous extreme left people that have been banned. Why is that? Is it because moderators are right wing and cannot tolerate the left attitudes... or is it because perhaps the tendency to attack with ruthlessness rests within the left contingency?

I think you know me and I'm not deliberately trying to polarize the community any more than what it already is. I think I probably rest right of the middle given my strong stance on crime and punishment... but I have been very vocal for many significant left ideals at the same time.

I'm not picking sides is what I'm saying here: I'm only supporting the right to voice your side without getting habitually shit on (extreme positions- which almost beg for an attack- aside).

I am indignant about the hypocrisy, not the tactic. Yeah, lots of people pull that trick (it's tedious, but whatever) But the point is that people who do it themselves are repeatedly acting like victims of bias when it's done to them. And worse, acting like victims of plain old disdain, when the are regularly disdainful towards others.

A lot of extreme right people have been banned. Where people are on the political spectrum has nothing to do with that - it's been all over the board.

Really? Who?

I can seriously think of very prominent lefties, but am challenged to think of any rightie.

The one that keeps popping in my head is Unsung- but he simply walked away: tired of the stuff I'm getting at.It was rare when I agreed with him, but he was a very important voice here.

I say this in all seriousness: I feel like the lefties are held to some higher standard here. The righties seem to be able to say and do whatever the fuck they want with nary a slap. The lefties get time outs and bans for less than the same. I have seen it all over this board over the years. it has happened to me. PM from a mod saying I was getting a time out for responding to a troll (defending myself against a personal attack, no less). The troll got nothing. I got a time out. More than once.

But also consider that this board is made up of probably 80% left, 10% moderate, and 10% right. You need to look at proportions of who gets banned, not the numbers.

anyway, back on the rails.....

In light of my assertion, those numbers can't be left to stand, Hugh. They're speculatory and a hunch.

I'm not sure about the higher standard item either. Using the current example... Unsung was exceptionally patient until, almost with a sigh, he lost patience and bowed out. He never went down in a flame of glory- lashing out at his opponents like I have seen from others who have been banned while propping up the left position.