Migrants rushing Europian Borders

benjs · September 2015

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?

Rr, while I can't attest to the UK opinion on the refugee issue relating specifically to Muslim immigrants, where you stand is almost identical to where I stand. I'm in favour of acknowledging the US's fault in the creation of issues, but don't think it's where a conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end: the conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end with a proposed idea, not a pointed finger.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · September 2015

benjs said:

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?
Rr, while I can't attest to the UK opinion on the refugee issue relating specifically to Muslim immigrants, where you stand is almost identical to where I stand. I'm in favour of acknowledging the US's fault in the creation of issues, but don't think it's where a conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end: the conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end with a proposed idea, not a pointed finger.

And what is your non-pointed finger suggestion?

oftenreading · September 2015

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?

Actually, FYI pdalowsky commented at length this morning, a few posts above yours. Not being nit-picky here - you may be interested in reading that post as it seems you missed it.

benjs · September 2015

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

benjs said:

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?
Rr, while I can't attest to the UK opinion on the refugee issue relating specifically to Muslim immigrants, where you stand is almost identical to where I stand. I'm in favour of acknowledging the US's fault in the creation of issues, but don't think it's where a conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end: the conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end with a proposed idea, not a pointed finger.
And what is your non-pointed finger suggestion?

My suggestion is that "hey pjfan! Aren't we the worst in North America? The Middle Eastern situation is all our fault!" is a nonsensically useless statement in isolation which distracts and deflects from important topics which require our action (or at least education on best actions to support).

If the North American creation of the instability in the Middle East is a premise which somehow affects how we should act moving forward, what is the proposal we are basing this premise on? If there is one - just say it, and stop beating around the bush. If there isn't one, why on earth should we waste any energy on this self-hatred, when we can make amends for the past by finding ways to support global policy in ways which differ from our past we hate so much.

Self-deprecation is serving no one well here. Not for an individual, not for a nation.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · September 2015

benjs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

benjs said:

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?
Rr, while I can't attest to the UK opinion on the refugee issue relating specifically to Muslim immigrants, where you stand is almost identical to where I stand. I'm in favour of acknowledging the US's fault in the creation of issues, but don't think it's where a conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end: the conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end with a proposed idea, not a pointed finger.
And what is your non-pointed finger suggestion?
My suggestion is that "hey pjfan! Aren't we the worst in North America? The Middle Eastern situation is all our fault!" is a nonsensically useless statement in isolation which distracts and deflects from important topics which require our action (or at least education on best actions to support).

If the North American creation of the instability in the Middle East is a premise which somehow affects how we should act moving forward, what is the proposal we are basing this premise on? If there is one - just say it, and stop beating around the bush. If there isn't one, why on earth should we waste any energy on this self-hatred, when we can make amends for the past by finding ways to support global policy in ways which differ from our past we hate so much.

Self-deprecation is serving no one well here. Not for an individual, not for a nation.

So you are all gears and no idears.
What you just said does nothing for anyone.

edit - hey to you too!
And before dign posts some type of troll stuff because he/she is buthurt

hedonist · September 2015

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

benjs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

benjs said:

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?
Rr, while I can't attest to the UK opinion on the refugee issue relating specifically to Muslim immigrants, where you stand is almost identical to where I stand. I'm in favour of acknowledging the US's fault in the creation of issues, but don't think it's where a conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end: the conversation about how to or how not to help refugees should end with a proposed idea, not a pointed finger.
And what is your non-pointed finger suggestion?
My suggestion is that "hey pjfan! Aren't we the worst in North America? The Middle Eastern situation is all our fault!" is a nonsensically useless statement in isolation which distracts and deflects from important topics which require our action (or at least education on best actions to support).

If the North American creation of the instability in the Middle East is a premise which somehow affects how we should act moving forward, what is the proposal we are basing this premise on? If there is one - just say it, and stop beating around the bush. If there isn't one, why on earth should we waste any energy on this self-hatred, when we can make amends for the past by finding ways to support global policy in ways which differ from our past we hate so much.

Self-deprecation is serving no one well here. Not for an individual, not for a nation.
So you are all gears and no idears.
What you just said does nothing for anyone.

edit - hey to you too!
And before dign posts some type of troll stuff because he/she is buthurt

I for one appreciate many of what benjs has said here, not to mention on many threads, so it actually does do something for at least one person here.

Don't think I've ever used the troll label and my butt is currently whistling "I Feel Fine" but what's the point in being snarky for what appears to be just the sake of being snarky?

PJfanwillneverleave1 · September 2015

To hear you say things like my butt is whistling.

edit - Yes OP you were right, the rail stations were closed down to stop the influx of people trying to get to Germany and there are big problems.

callen · September 2015

dignin said:

callen said:

Moonpig said:

callen said:
Going to sound cold but if Europe and or Canada or the US just openly accepted all these folks more and more would come and countries would go broke, it's citizens would revolt and we would have a major mess.
Going to sound cold, but if Europe, Canada, and the US didn't drop bombs on these people as well as fund both sides of nearly every bloody conflict in the middle east then perhaps there would not be the scale of crisis we are now facing.

Bomb their country back to the stone age and then criticise them for wanting to be part of the 21st century.
Well don't disagree that the west has some responsibility but believe that many, even those that aren't refugees, well clamor to Europeans social benefit plans. happened before wests interference with Middle East and will continue afterwards. There's reason they are headed there and not less beneficial countries. Once those in poorer countries see opening more will rush. Don't blame them. Not sustainable. Only so many that pay taxes. So point only it will get uglier and European countries will be forced to hold the line. We'll see.

Maybe the us will keep it's nose out and maybe leave more decisions for intervention to Europeans that will feel ramifications more.
You are making a lot of assumptions here callen. A lot of these refugees are educated people that will add to an economy/society, and not be a burden. You happen to live in a country built on the backs of immigrants and refugees, and so do I.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-6-2015-1.2984153/refugees-pay-more-income-tax-to-canada-than-millionaire-migrants-1.2984201

And let's be clear, the vast majority of these Syrian refugees are leaving Syria because they have to, not because they want to. Their home and way of life has been completely destroyed.

Okay Digin so you've referenced my post few times and repeated that I'm making assumptions.

First agreed the west has some responsibility for this crisis so that's not it. Stated that maybe the west will think little harder before it invades or meddles in others affairs. Im a huge critic of our involvement.

So now to rest of my post. It's no secret to many In the world that getting to Germany or England is a goal for many. Due to social systems. I've personally spoken to people that told me point blank that they wanted to go to Germany because of the benefits. I've listened to interviews by those that are crossing Mediterranean that their goal is to go to England due to assistance. So don't feel this is an assumption but let me know if you disagree.
I know people that live in Germany and they are concerned with number of auslanders as they call them. Again have listened to interviews and many say same thing.
I don't doubt that many are displaced and do feel this is a crises but also feel that many will see this as an opportunity to join the migration. Again people have been flocking to Europe for many years and Europe has been liberal in accepting them but they will have to control and not just let everybody in. Merkel said just this. Same reason many in US don't want to grant citizenship to current illegals cause fear is it will embolden more. I agree with this. Again I don't blame humans for doing this. They have guts. More than I.

As to paying their fare share and eventually paying back what they receive? Well that remains to be determined. Adding million people, schooling medical food shelter will add big tax burden initially. I've countered those that say illegals in US mooch off system and don't pay taxes. I know this isn't true. They pay sales tax and SSN that they'll never receive. They don't get food stamps or go to dr's because they are trying to stay away from authorities. Different for these refugees. They will get assistance and the current taxpayers will pay now. So my statement the populations of these European countries will push back. Even the non right wing hate groups.

So do I have hard facts to back up my post, no, but let's see how this pans out.

Peace.

Moonpig · September 2015

rr165892 said:

Moonpig said:

rr165892 said:

Moonpig said:

callen said:
Going to sound cold but if Europe and or Canada or the US just openly accepted all these folks more and more would come and countries would go broke, it's citizens would revolt and we would have a major mess.
Going to sound cold, but if Europe, Canada, and the US didn't drop bombs on these people as well as fund both sides of nearly every bloody conflict in the middle east then perhaps there would not be the scale of crisis we are now facing.

Bomb their country back to the stone age and then criticise them for wanting to be part of the 21st century.
Like a broken fuckin record
nothing to add then?

I love how some people here seem to think this crisis began 3 years ago, independent of any outside factors, millions of people just woke up one morning and said to themselves "fuck it, you know what, lets up stakes and walk from one continent to another, take a risky as fuck boat ride with a high casualty rate, just so we can rob some social welfare, and flip burgers off the books for a living."

Like a broken fuckin record indeed
WTF are you talking about ?

So you think I'm the one with the myopic view? The region was and is a shit show wether we are destabilizing it or not.It has been for 1000s of years.
My comment which originally was part of a conversation with someone else is Syria is in the middle of a civil war.The fleeing refugees are fleeing Assads govt who is exterminating them.That you cannot hang on US.But yet you still need to deflect blame.I get it.
And if your going to talk shit,at least be accurate.Ive not once made little of the plight of the refugees.Dont confuse calling out hypocritical board members with making light of the struggles of those innocent people.

Yikes,

Who's deflecting blame, and to where?

I am a European, and have acknowledged that Europe has an awful lot to answer for, but hey rant away.

As an Irishman I am ashamed that my government allowed US warplanes into Shannon airport, as a stop over before moving on to their theater of war. Ireland is a part of the problem and can therefore not turn their backs on these people.

Any clearer?

Moonpig · September 2015

benjs said:

rr165892 said:

Moonpig said:

rr165892 said:

Moonpig said:

callen said:
Going to sound cold but if Europe and or Canada or the US just openly accepted all these folks more and more would come and countries would go broke, it's citizens would revolt and we would have a major mess.
Going to sound cold, but if Europe, Canada, and the US didn't drop bombs on these people as well as fund both sides of nearly every bloody conflict in the middle east then perhaps there would not be the scale of crisis we are now facing.

Bomb their country back to the stone age and then criticise them for wanting to be part of the 21st century.
Like a broken fuckin record
nothing to add then?

I love how some people here seem to think this crisis began 3 years ago, independent of any outside factors, millions of people just woke up one morning and said to themselves "fuck it, you know what, lets up stakes and walk from one continent to another, take a risky as fuck boat ride with a high casualty rate, just so we can rob some social welfare, and flip burgers off the books for a living."

Like a broken fuckin record indeed
WTF are you talking about ?

So you think I'm the one with the myopic view? The region was and is a shit show wether we are destabilizing it or not.It has been for 1000s of years.
My comment which originally was part of a conversation with someone else is Syria is in the middle of a civil war.The fleeing refugees are fleeing Assads govt who is exterminating them.That you cannot hang on US.But yet you still need to deflect blame.I get it.
And if your going to talk shit,at least be accurate.Ive not once made little of the plight of the refugees.Dont confuse calling out hypocritical board members with making light of the struggles of those innocent people.
I think there are some people misinterpreting each other here.

Callen's comment: totally agree. The reality is, we can pretend all we like, but to be birthed in the USA vs being birthed in Syria would lend you a very different life, from a probabilistic point of view. Were America's doors always open to refugees, without any checks and balances (double-checking the validity of the refugee's claims), you'd better believe that there'd be an influx of refugees to a point where the quality of life in America would suffer. This would in fact go against what a government's prime objective is: to secure the quality of life for its citizens first. The only time this should change is should the citizens collectively decide that they are willing to sacrifice some of their quality of life, in order that its government should act on their behalves to pursue humanitarian initiatives.

Moonpig's comments: this is a sad reality, intervention at the least contributed to, and at the most caused this refugee issue. Frankly, however, this comment is absolutely useless! It offers NOTHING of an alternative solution for a problem, and merely throws blame. It's one thing to acknowledge that the Western world is responsible for destabilizing the region, but it's just hate-mongering until you can use this to help rally people to band together and support initiative X. If we followed Moonpig's trajectory, he'd be content when this thread has people all agreeing "yeah, this is all America's fault!" But of course, there'd still be this tiny refugee problem that we still hadn't put our personal seals of approval behind any sort of plan or immigration policy to support to negate or minimize this issue: and I was under the impression that THAT is why we're here discussing.

Rr: I'm really not sure I understand your position here. My closest guess is that you're empathetic to the plight of the refugees, but don't believe there is a global obligation to the world to blindly take them in. Instead, you put the onus on the region to work on its own stability. Is that close? (I mean no disrespect from this, I'd honestly just like to understand your position more fully).

With all due respect, if you read earlier posts within the thread you will see what solution I, as an individual have offered, might not be much, but I'll be a long time dead before I see a concerted effort to address this issue - on every front.

You believe I advocate hate mongering because I suggest that we need to addresses all the causes of this conflict, including what the US, Europe and others have done to contribute? Either you have no idea of the term you use or you are pushing for effect, either way, relax.

Please point out where I said it was all Americas fault, honestly I am asking, if you're going to throw around statements I will ask that you atleast back them up.

Don't worry about attempting to follow my trajectory when you clearly struggle with my reasoning.

Last-12-Exit · September 2015

All we have to do is pm badbrains to get him to leave?

pdalowsky · September 2015

Oh man, the image of that toddler is embedded in my brain forever I feel. As it did for many others, it tore my heart to shreds. It was a picture I wish I had never seen, so I could continue in my comfortable ignorance to the problem, but then I absolutely realise its a picture EVERYONE needs to see. That picture spoke thousands of words, and because of it there is every chance now that that child didn't completely die in vain.

That said, using it as an avatar on a pj fan board? Im not sure im good with that. I wouldn't question why Badbrains used it as I firmly believe his intentions are extremely good. He gives a shit, and is no doubt as disgusted by it as the majority of us are, but....well......It hurts to see it, and this place (albeit I accept MT shouldn't be) is kind of my escape from the real world. Having said all that, the picture doesn't at all offend me, its real, its life, it happened, and if someone wants to try in anyway he might to raise awareness of the plight, then that is in my view his right to do so. I too am equally baffled that someone would be as petty to report that when reading a politically charged forum....

that is presuming of course that someone saw it here and not in the other forums......

Perhaps a photo of that boy smiling and beautifully dressed would be more fitting......but of course that wouldn't have an impact in forcing the change I think we would all agree is essential.

pdalowsky · September 2015

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

Godfather. said:
Germany says they'll take 500,000 a year for a few years....really ? I can't wait to see how this turns out, here's my guess.. first they(refuges) will be greatfull then once they are settled in the demands will start and when those demands arnt met the protesting and possible riots will start, you know just like it is in the US with the muslims, then there will be a new topic to debate on the train, I see things different than most of you, like say I do invite you into my home, I will not repaint my house because the color offends you, I will not adjust my beliefs to make you happy (in my home we believe Jesus died for our sin's) and if that offends you pack youir things and leave, when you are invited into someones home you should have respect for the family that offered to help you, it's really simple.

Godfather.
Can you find an example of a sponsored refugee wanting the home owner to repaint their house or change their beliefs?

I would like to know where you come up with this BS?

Also, I think it is incumbent on other western nations to take in more refugees so Germany doesn't have to take in so many. It's embarrassing that we aren't.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Also, GF, what Muslims in the US are you talking about? I haven't heard about any rioting Muslim refugees in the USA. I'm also curious to know when and where you heard about refugees asking anyone to adjust their beliefs or change their homes? As dignin asked already.... where are you coming up with this shit??

Im not intentionally playing devils advocate but I read GF's posts to be purposefully interpreting peoples views on Muslim immigrants into the mini environment of a home.

I don't think he was suggesting people take Muslims in and get complaints about their home décor. I think it was a play on the larger take on this in society. Whenever I log into facebook or the likes there is a variety of memes posted of people complaining of Muslims settling in Christian communities trying to change the landscape around them because it offends their view. You know, the attempts to ban images of pigs, Christmas greetings in shops, and on and on the issues go due to the difficulties of proper integration. Many folk have this mind-set that if a Muslim family want to move to England - they should adjust to an English way of life and not expect, demand and insist that we live to accommodate their beliefs.

Its a small minded view to a point, and not something I would subscribe to myself, but believe me that thought process is hugely popular and divisive in itself.

I don't think GF was being quite as subjective about the subject as his posts have been interpreted as being.

josevolution · September 2015

Yeah that's total commy bullshit from the mods or who ever gave the ok to change your avatar they should be ashamed of at least come here and explain why ....

pdalowsky · September 2015

oftenreading said:

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?
Actually, FYI pdalowsky commented at length this morning, a few posts above yours. Not being nit-picky here - you may be interested in reading that post as it seems you missed it.

Page 6 if of interest. I would happily expand further and add more detail of the types of mentality encountered and prevalent in society in the north of England and the countries geographical balance in terms of ethnicity. I would repeat that to get the impression that was formed in London and mentioned earlier, is HUGELY surprising.

badbrains · September 2015

Well, seems my new avatar is ok cuz it hasn't been changed and I haven't been banned. Still trying to figure out why anyone would report an avatar.

Didn't realize this would be a big issue but it seems like most of you in here support and have an issue with what happened. Good to see that we all still believe in freedom of speech. Appreciate all the kind words of support. Even from Scott.

rr165892 · September 2015

pdalowsky said:

oftenreading said:

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?
Actually, FYI pdalowsky commented at length this morning, a few posts above yours. Not being nit-picky here - you may be interested in reading that post as it seems you missed it.
Page 6 if of interest. I would happily expand further and add more detail of the types of mentality encountered and prevalent in society in the north of England and the countries geographical balance in terms of ethnicity. I would repeat that to get the impression that was formed in London and mentioned earlier, is HUGELY surprising.

I'm sorry I missed your comment.I went back and re read it.
I stayed by Hyde Park/Marble Arch just a block of Oxford when in London for 10 days in mid May.i can only speak to MY experience and what I saw and Heard.
My wife is of British birth and it was her first time back since childhood.
Cab drivers,shop keepers,store clerks and bartenders all made a comments unasked or unsolicited by Us in regards to the large and growing Muslim community within London.
I can tell you,it is the most noticeably Muslim city I have ever been to.Not that there is anything at all wrong with that just saying there was many,many full burkas and head scarfs.
There are areas of London where we were told not to go as folks there want only activities in line with Sharia law and will give you shit on the street.
Hell,even at the hotel my lovely wife came out of the gym rocking a LuLu lemon tank top and Yoga pants after her workout and was basically shunned and ignored by the full burka wearing women who were near her in the breakfast line.It watched it and it wasn't polite.Thats not hear nor there,just observations.
When we traveled up to Birmingham,it was impossible not to see the same.
Don't get me wrong some of the Muslim folks we met were very engaging and nice,others would ignore us after I engaged them in conversation or the niceties of daily living(holding doors,elevators,etc)
So do my eyes and ears descieve me ? Is what I saw not what is going on in London and the UK.

badbrains · September 2015

rr165892 said:

pdalowsky said:

oftenreading said:

rr165892 said:
Ben,My position is this.
I see a similar migration of exiled folks who's lives have been uprooted and life turned upside down as I do the Jews fleeing occupied areas during and prior to WW2.I see some Parralel issues and really feel for these folks.I want to see countries help.

I think all this nonsense started because I commented on some of the western posters that said they would open their homes to these refugees.If true that is awesome and heartwarming,but like many things on these boards I thought It was lip service bullshit on behalf of some(not all) and I made a comment on the hypocrisy by stating they should go to a homeless shelter and help someone in need right here.That didn't go over well with some.Oh well,it happenes.Then like always someone blames the U.S. For this problem which I acknowledge may have been part of original destabilization but that Assads regime and IsIs are the one directly responsible now.
I also commented that I wouldn't let strangers stay in my house but would be fine with helping with $$.
Oh,and I commented on that I thought UK would have a issue with the influx of more Muslims.Based on my visit there and the comments we heard non Muslim locals making.Nart
thinks I'm off base so I asked one of our UK posters to verify the feeling on the ground in England.To date no one commented.thats it pal.Ive stated nothing negative about the fleeing families other then wishing them safe passage.So you tell me,where do I stand on this?
Actually, FYI pdalowsky commented at length this morning, a few posts above yours. Not being nit-picky here - you may be interested in reading that post as it seems you missed it.
Page 6 if of interest. I would happily expand further and add more detail of the types of mentality encountered and prevalent in society in the north of England and the countries geographical balance in terms of ethnicity. I would repeat that to get the impression that was formed in London and mentioned earlier, is HUGELY surprising.
I'm sorry I missed your comment.I went back and re read it.
I stayed by Hyde Park/Marble Arch just a block of Oxford when in London for 10 days in mid May.i can only speak to MY experience and what I saw and Heard.
My wife is of British birth and it was her first time back since childhood.
Cab drivers,shop keepers,store clerks and bartenders all made a comments unasked or unsolicited by Us in regards to the large and growing Muslim community within London.
I can tell you,it is the most noticeably Muslim city I have ever been to.Not that there is anything at all wrong with that just saying there was many,many full burkas and head scarfs.
There are areas of London where we were told not to go as folks there want only activities in line with Sharia law and will give you shit on the street.
Hell,even at the hotel my lovely wife came out of the gym rocking a LuLu lemon tank top and Yoga pants after her workout and was basically shunned and ignored by the full burka wearing women who were near her in the breakfast line.It watched it and it wasn't polite.Thats not hear nor there,just observations.
When we traveled up to Birmingham,it was impossible not to see the same.
Don't get me wrong some of the Muslim folks we met were very engaging and nice,others would ignore us after I engaged them in conversation or the niceties of daily living(holding doors,elevators,etc)
So do my eyes and ears descieve me ? Is what I saw not what is going on in London and the UK.

Sorry RR, but that's no diff than walking in a Hasidic neighborhood in Brooklyn or an Amish community right here in the U.S.. You and your wife would get the same looks. Is there bigot neighborhoods all around? Of course there is. It's everywhere and every race/religion has them. What I think is funny is that I travel a lot too. And out of all the places I've been too, the Arab nations were the most hospitipal of all. I've been all over Europe, Russia and the Mediterranean. I'm as white as they come. Maybe it's in what you choose to see.

dignin · September 2015

callen said:

dignin said:

callen said:

Moonpig said:

callen said:
Going to sound cold but if Europe and or Canada or the US just openly accepted all these folks more and more would come and countries would go broke, it's citizens would revolt and we would have a major mess.
Going to sound cold, but if Europe, Canada, and the US didn't drop bombs on these people as well as fund both sides of nearly every bloody conflict in the middle east then perhaps there would not be the scale of crisis we are now facing.

Bomb their country back to the stone age and then criticise them for wanting to be part of the 21st century.
Well don't disagree that the west has some responsibility but believe that many, even those that aren't refugees, well clamor to Europeans social benefit plans. happened before wests interference with Middle East and will continue afterwards. There's reason they are headed there and not less beneficial countries. Once those in poorer countries see opening more will rush. Don't blame them. Not sustainable. Only so many that pay taxes. So point only it will get uglier and European countries will be forced to hold the line. We'll see.

Maybe the us will keep it's nose out and maybe leave more decisions for intervention to Europeans that will feel ramifications more.
You are making a lot of assumptions here callen. A lot of these refugees are educated people that will add to an economy/society, and not be a burden. You happen to live in a country built on the backs of immigrants and refugees, and so do I.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-6-2015-1.2984153/refugees-pay-more-income-tax-to-canada-than-millionaire-migrants-1.2984201

And let's be clear, the vast majority of these Syrian refugees are leaving Syria because they have to, not because they want to. Their home and way of life has been completely destroyed.
Okay Digin so you've referenced my post few times and repeated that I'm making assumptions.

First agreed the west has some responsibility for this crisis so that's not it. Stated that maybe the west will think little harder before it invades or meddles in others affairs. Im a huge critic of our involvement.

So now to rest of my post. It's no secret to many In the world that getting to Germany or England is a goal for many. Due to social systems. I've personally spoken to people that told me point blank that they wanted to go to Germany because of the benefits. I've listened to interviews by those that are crossing Mediterranean that their goal is to go to England due to assistance. So don't feel this is an assumption but let me know if you disagree.
I know people that live in Germany and they are concerned with number of auslanders as they call them. Again have listened to interviews and many say same thing.
I don't doubt that many are displaced and do feel this is a crises but also feel that many will see this as an opportunity to join the migration. Again people have been flocking to Europe for many years and Europe has been liberal in accepting them but they will have to control and not just let everybody in. Merkel said just this. Same reason many in US don't want to grant citizenship to current illegals cause fear is it will embolden more. I agree with this. Again I don't blame humans for doing this. They have guts. More than I.

As to paying their fare share and eventually paying back what they receive? Well that remains to be determined. Adding million people, schooling medical food shelter will add big tax burden initially. I've countered those that say illegals in US mooch off system and don't pay taxes. I know this isn't true. They pay sales tax and SSN that they'll never receive. They don't get food stamps or go to dr's because they are trying to stay away from authorities. Different for these refugees. They will get assistance and the current taxpayers will pay now. So my statement the populations of these European countries will push back. Even the non right wing hate groups.

So do I have hard facts to back up my post, no, but let's see how this pans out.

Peace.

Thanks for the well thought out response Callen. I have nothing really to argue about with this post, all good points.

Moonpig · September 2015

badbrains said:
Well, seems my new avatar is ok cuz it hasn't been changed and I haven't been banned. Still trying to figure out why anyone would report an avatar.

Didn't realize this would be a big issue but it seems like most of you in here support and have an issue with what happened. Good to see that we all still believe in freedom of speech. Appreciate all the kind words of support. Even from Scott.

Look man you put up with a bit of shit on here, being the resident Muslim, and to be fair I really don't know how you maintain your cool with some people at times.

With respect to the avatar, some people go looking for offense, leave them off, in the grand scheme of things you only have to read their ignorance, jesus imagine having to live with them all the time.

My view of it is, I don't give offense, if you take it, well then that's on you.

You've got plenty of support here, that's the focus, the rest is noise.

Migrants rushing Europian Borders

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